What's with these "weird" tie-off locations for crosses?

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by Hidious, Aug 22, 2010.

  1. Hidious

    Hidious Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,201
    I have been stringing a lot of different racquets lately and i am always stunned when the stringing pattern wants me to tie off the crosses on another cross, the one right next to the first main. These spots are tight and appear to me as the worst location to tie-off the crosses. I don't have enough room for a parnell knot and the last main is not straight anymore because there is a knot in the way and it pushes on it.

    Definitely not a big deal but a lot of racquets have these tie-off locations for crosses. So many holes available, why this one?

    Anybody know what i'm talking about?
     
    #1
  2. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    4,364
    Use a smaller knot for those places. The PC knot works nice, and you can see that one done by YUlitle on you tube, under PC knot, as he shows that nice.Also Irvin has a video on these boards showing knots and he shows the Wilson knot, and the Wilson knot is small knot that would work nice as well.Both are very similar knots.
     
    #2
  3. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    With the advent of poly string many players do not want to tie off a poly string on a gut string so some manufacturers (like Babolat) has the mains tie off on the mains and the crosses tie off on the crosses but not for all rackets in their lines.

    Irvin
     
    #3
  4. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,571
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    I was taught to always tie off on a cross when you have the choice.
     
    #4
  5. Virtua Tennis

    Virtua Tennis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2008
    Messages:
    576
    The wilson string team at the open says always the 3rd cross
     
    #5
  6. Hidious

    Hidious Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,201
    Makes sense, but why choose this particular cross when the next one higher up would be a lot more convenient? They're just playing with us stringers, i suppose... :):confused:
     
    #6
  7. 4sound

    4sound Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2009
    Messages:
    530
    Location:
    Match Point
    deleted. wrong post
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2010
    #7
  8. High Roller

    High Roller Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2009
    Messages:
    265
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    This has nothing whatsoever to do with Babolat's hinky final cross tie-offs on two-piece jobs.
     
    #8
  9. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    I'm sorry but I have no idea of what you are talking about. Just like the OP if you could be more specific maybe you could get a more direct answer.

    Here is what I was talking about when I mentioned a cross string with the tie off starting on a cross.

    http://www.babolat.com/media/tennis/stringing_pattern/Pure_Storm.pdf

    Could you tell me what you think is so hinky about the final cross tie off? Maybe you have another specific racket in mind.
     
    #9
  10. Hidious

    Hidious Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,201
    Irvin, take this PureStorm diagram and pretend it's another racquet. Weaving the crosses from head to throat, as usual, the tie-off for crosses would be on line 36, very close to the last main string.

    It's not difficult to tie it off there, it's just a tighter space than usual requiring a little more concentration and hand dexterity. Like another poster has mentioned, my usual parnell knot should be avoided for these spots since it's a little too bulky and puts some unnecessary pressure on the last main.

    I encountered this oddity on a couple of different racquet but i mostly remember that Babolat Drive Z Lites and Drive Z Tours tie-off like this. Maybe i could take a pic next time. Life would just be easier for lazy stringers like me if the knot was intended for line 35 instead of 36 on this example diagram.

    /Rant, I shall move on now :)
     
    #10
  11. Lakers4Life

    Lakers4Life Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2009
    Messages:
    3,638
    Location:
    Laker Land
    ^^^Aero Pro Drives are like that, a tight tie off next to a main.
     
    #11
  12. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    You could not possibly be talking about a tie like the one below could you?

    [​IMG]

    LOL just happended to have one like this a few days ago. I noticed right off that something was wrong with this racket when I seen one main and the last cross both tied off in the same hole. I wondered why they did that until I seen the cross tie off. I planned to have the cross tie off on the hole where my cross would have ended up on top of the main but Murphy's Law jumped up just about the same time. If anything can go wrong it will. If the cross is on top when you tighten the knot it will slide over the main and back when you tighten it. I use a Pro knot and it seems to work well on this situation too as it holds as well as the Parnell but is a little smaller. Another thing you could do is tie the knot from the bottom - but that is a little tricky. I tied my knot from the bottom.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2010
    #12
  13. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Another video

    ^^ Remembering that experience I had with the Wilson about today I was stringing a AeroPro Drive two piece. Same problem, the tie off hole is very close to the outside main. I decided to make a video of how to tie off that knot. Here it is:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WILK_BwWCE

    Irvin
     
    #13
  14. nyc

    nyc Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,532
    Location:
    SoCal
    Wilson KBT has a tie-off like that - annoying as hell.

    So now that I'm switching to Volkl PB10 mid, guess what? Same issue.

    lucky me.
     
    #14
  15. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ If these knots bother you, you really need to look at the video I make. It is really pretty simple to tie these knots if you plan for them.

    Irvin
     
    #15
  16. Hidious

    Hidious Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,201
    Irvin, thanks for the pic, that's exactly what i'm talking about. I knew Wilson and Babolat did this but Volkl too now? This is starting to look like a conspiracy to annoy stringers :)

    I may have missed something here, but does anyone have any idea WHY they choose this particular location for the tie-off? It's certainly not for convenience or aesthetics but there must be a good reason for this since it seems like more and more racquets are like that, especially the newer models. Why not choose the next cross higher up or the previous one lower down and make our life easier? Would that really change anything?

    Very nice of you to make a vid Irvin but i honestly don't think there are any stringers out there who are bothered enough with this to the point that they'll look for help. It's just a small annoyance, nothing more.
     
    #16
  17. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ I think the point they chose to tie off the crosses is a good point but before I say why let's look at the pattern.

    [​IMG]

    Let's say you are trying to find the best point to tie off the bottom cross on the racket above. You want to find a hole that is close to the exit point of the string (8T) to reduce drawback and you want a hole that is not partially blocked by another string angled through the grommet. 9t and 7T are out because the mains string are angled through the grommet holes. 6T is already in use as a main tie off, and 5T has another angled string. 4T is too far away therefore, the most logical point would be 10T.

    My thinking may be off a bit but the point they used seems logical to me.

    Irvin
     
    #17
  18. Hidious

    Hidious Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,201
    It makes sense Irvin but then again, i've strung a bunch of racquets who had their tie-off on the side at 12T, 13T and even 14T. Maybe they adopted your way of thinking (the part about finding a hole that is close to the exit point of the string (8T) to reduce drawback) after-wards for later models, i don't know.

    For this APD example, i still think 11T would have been a lot more convenient than 10T. It's not like a centimeter higher would have a big impact on drawback, or would it?
     
    #18
  19. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ I can't agrue with that.

    Irvin
     
    #19
  20. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    Messages:
    14,041
    Location:
    Atlanta GA
    The PB10 MP has a last cross tie off like this. The space to pull it through is barely larger that the diameter of the knot.
     
    #20
  21. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,048
    Location:
    Waterlooville, Hampshire, UK
    There is an easy way around the bottome cross tie-off problem on Babolat rqts like the APD/APDC/APD GT & PD/PDC/PD GT and thats to trim the grommet down. I do this and it then makes it easy to fit in the tie-off knot. I use the Parnell knot and have no problem using this method.

    Another method which helps when stringing hybrids on these rqts is how you weave the 1st cross. If you make sure that the 1st weave by the top tie-off is an 'under', then the outside main by the 2nd from bottom cross (the anchor string for the knot) will also be an under. This means that you can tie the knot in the next adjacent square and slide it 'under' what appears to be an obstructing string.

    Hope this helps

    Regards

    Paul
     
    #21
  22. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ All that is in my video but rather than trimming the grommet down I would suggest flaring it out.

    Irvin
     
    #22
  23. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,048
    Location:
    Waterlooville, Hampshire, UK
    Irvin, sorry I hadn't watched your vid. Apologies if I repeated anything you've already mentioned.

    Regards

    Paul
     
    #23
  24. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    4,412
    Location:
    expanding my Ignore List
    This may be the nicest forum on the Internets.
     
    #24
  25. neverstopplaying

    neverstopplaying Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    1,184
    Location:
    Montreal
    Thanks for posting this video. I screwed up my string job ever stringing a friend's new APDC as the knot tightened on itself BEFORE tightening the last cross. I was using Blue Gear which made it harder and impossible to fix now.

    I'll redo this one for tomorrow.
     
    #25
  26. banter

    banter Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    400
    Location:
    California - Texas
    I appreciate the tie-off advice. I will try some of the tips provided with my next string job, but on my KBT I doubt I'll be able to tie it off the cross where it is suggested. Can I have my cross tie off hit and move main?
     
    #26
  27. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    When you tie your cross it is better you have your knot slide over the main when you tighten it. I am assuming you are talking about your cross is running under the main. Then when you pull the knot tight the knot is below the main and the tail hits and moves the mains. That keeps you from getting all the slack out of the string unless you pull more than once.

    Irvin
     
    #27
  28. Centryx

    Centryx Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    440
    Quick question for you irvin.
    I watched your video and you are starting your crosses on the top but the schematic has it going from bottom to top? is there a preference going top to bottom or bottom to top for the integrity of the racket?

    thanks in advance
     
    #28
  29. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ Without a doubt I prefer to go from top to bottom ALWAYS. Which video are you talking about?

    Irvin
     
    #29
  30. Centryx

    Centryx Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    440
    the one you posted in this thread. so even if the schematic says start bottom to top then you still do it the other way?
     
    #30
  31. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Well now that schematic by Babolat is a little confusing I agree. If you look at it there are two different colored string for the mains and crosses. There is also an option for two piece or one piece if you look real close. I contacted babolat and they said it is always best to go top to bottom so I strung that racket two piece which goes top to bottom. Hope that makes sense.

    Irvin
     
    #31
  32. Centryx

    Centryx Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    440
    ahh ok I see I was doing it the other way since I was following the numbers but bottom to top if it was a one piece job would have been correct i assume?
     
    #32
  33. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    One piece on Babolat is OK but two piece is reccomended per Babolat. BUT that may run into a problem where the tie off knot for the bottom cross does not have much room. Pay attention to video on how to start two piece crosses or you could run into a small problem.

    Irvin
     
    #33
  34. Centryx

    Centryx Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    440
    thanks Irvin I have been doing 2 piece jobs from the bottom up guess I will try it the other way.
     
    #34
  35. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    4,364
    Hi Irvin,
    Have you ever thought of tying your knot underneath the racquet when the main is in the way to slide it over. In otherwords, if you prefer to tie a PC, Wilson, or even a Parnell, instead of going over under and through, just go under over and through each time, and pull from underneath, the loop will then slide over the proper side of the main, and you can still cinch it up nice just from underneath is all, rather than planning on the tie off having the main end under the cross string that you are tying the knot to.Seems easier to just tie it and cinch from under. Just as easy. So without planning for this, there is a 50/ 50 chance of the knot needing to be tied under is all.Only thing this way the tail is on the other side of the racquet than the way the other knots are.I know your suppose to mount the racquet with the butt cap up, so all knots are on the same side as far as the tails are concerned, but I'm sure that when it comes down to it, it really does not matter for one tie off that the tail is pointing on the other side of the racquet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2010
    #35
  36. banter

    banter Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2010
    Messages:
    400
    Location:
    California - Texas
    Thanks Irvin.

    What if the tie-off actually puts pressure on one of the mains?
    This is a pic of a stringjob done by a local shop. I've been playing with the racquet and it doesn't seem to affect performance.

    [​IMG]
     
    #36
  37. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,080
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    I sure have 'jim e' and that is a good method. my problem is with fixed clamps the clamps get in the way some times and it just seems wierd to tie from underneath.

    I do not think that is a problem it just does not look as good. Instead of tying a large knot if the stringer had tied a smaller knot like the Wilson knot it would have looked better. But here again is the issue I was talking about. The cross is under the main with the knot looking as though it was tied from the top. There is really no way to tell. The knot could have been tied from below as 'jim e' suggested and them pulled around so it looks like it was tied from the top. But this racket was strung on a stringer with fixed clamps and it looks like the clamps would have been in the way of properly tightening the knot. I don't think there is a problem there except for how it looks.

    I believe you said you had a Wilson racket. Wilson allows you to string the racket from bottom to top or you can do an ATW pattern. Depending on what ATW pattern your there could be no knot at the bottom and the grommet hole you used to tie off the mains (6T) would have been available to avoid the problem on 11T completely.

    Irvin
     
    #37
  38. spacediver

    spacediver Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,869
    Location:
    Toronto Canada
    just came across this problem today as I strung my kblade tour for the first time. I avoided the problem by using the knot shown in my klippermate manual. Dunno what it's called, but looks like what might be a double hitch or something. Anyway, key thing is that you can use it to tie off your crosses to the main.
     
    #38

Share This Page