Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Dan Lobb

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    Rosewall was interviewed in 2010 by an Italian publication, and the website dropped off the internet a few months ago, unfortunately. I saved the reference in my computer, but it was cleared out when my wife and I moved to our new house.
    It required translation from Italian, and gave the statement, "and the greatest player of all was my fellow [sic] Lew Hoad", which was presumably a mistranslation for "my friend Lew Hoad".
     
  2. Dan Lobb

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    Yes, indeed.
     
  3. Iron Man

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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  4. Iron Man

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    I looked for the interview and never found it ( even a hint about it )

    the internet dropped off and website cleared out without any trace , a cool story indeed

    IF you find it post it even in Italian because I understand it .

    by the way , didn't Laver rank Rosewall at number 6 in his GOAT list What do u think of that ?
     
  5. Talker

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    That was recent.

    Some have posted players comments from pretty far back which wouldn't have much validity as Federer's career is still ongoing.
     
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Even if you are right that Federer is the GOAT (I rank him No. 6 or 7) it's common sense that Rosewall's precision was unparalleled.
     
  7. BobbyOne

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  8. Limpinhitter

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    There's no doubt in my mind that Federer is in a different tier of greatness than Rosewall, primarily for his forehand and serve. Having said that, Rosewall had a beautiful game and was definitely one of the top 3 all time cleanest ball strikers, and maybe THE most precision shot maker, in tennis history.

    As for tennis experts, in my experience, their opinions are only slightly more defensible than the typical GPPF ****.
     
  9. krosero

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    cool story, bro
     
  10. kiki

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    Where were Plaa and Stoefen from? Just curious.
     
  11. kiki

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    Nusslein,Henkel and Von Cramm.The 30´s must have been german tennis greatest era as far as male are concerned...even more than the 90´s, with Becker,Stich,kiefter and Haas...
     
  12. BobbyOne

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    Yes, they were strong then and they also had Aussem and Krahwinkel.
     
  13. kiki

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    Rosewall himself has aknowledged that only windy conditions could prevent Hoad fron getting the grand Slam that 1956.He felt bad for his friend since he always recognized that " Lew, on his day, was not possible to beat"

    He may be mean but he was a honest guy and a true gentleman
     
  14. kiki

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    That is true.Wood rackets penalize those images while, at the same time, where much more burden on your arm ( and guts strings).Not many people in the current pro tour would play with a Head Vilas...I know what I am talking about.
     
  15. BobbyOne

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    Martin (de) Plaa was from France. he was a trainer of the Musketeers in the 1920s and beat Tilden to win the 1932 World's Pro Championshis in Berlin.

    Lester "Rollo" Stoefen might have been from California. He was runner up to Perry in the 1934 PSW L.A. amateur championships. He even became stronger (according to Tilden) in the pro ranks and was able to beat clay master, Nüsslein, in the 1939 French Pro.
     
  16. BobbyOne

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    .

    When you say that Rosewall was mean, then you are mean...
     
  17. Dan Lobb

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    I believe that the interview was during the 2010 Australian Open, which Rosewall attended.
    If you doubt this story, there is a good way to check it out. Rosewall is still with us.
    Laver deservedly ranked Rosewall at 6, but I would put him at number 5 all-time. I think that he could have handled Borg, Sampras, McEnroe and the others.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  18. kiki

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  19. kiki

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    True, I forgot that.So, either male or female, 30´s are german golden era for tennis and then, the 90´s ( Graf,Becker,Stich,Huber,haas and Kiefer).
     
  20. kiki

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    He was known in the entire tour as "Pockets"
     
  21. Dan Lobb

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    The recent Hodgson biography states that Hoad did not tell anyone about his back problem in the 1956 US final due to sportsmanship.
    I would suggest that there were also commercial considerations, as Hoad was the subject of fierce offers from Kramer to turn pro. If Hoad was known to be damaged goods, this would impact his bargaining power.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  22. kiki

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    I don´t know but it makes sense.OTOH, Hoad left a very highly regarded memory to all of those who knew him and his wife.He was worshipped in Spain and Gonzales ( yes, the SOB Gonzales), Rosewall and Laver were really fond of him.
     
  23. kiki

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    PC1, don´t take it so personally about Rosewall.After all, he is a human being and there is no perfect one, is there?

    I have the highest opinion of him, as I have stated many times.

    In his book, Laver told that the most popular joke in the days of the pro tour was:

    "Do you know how Kenny got hurt today? He just felt out of his pocket"
     
  24. pc1

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    I'm not taking it personally for the record. I don't recall that line in Laver's book.
     
  25. BobbyOne

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  26. kiki

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    I am sorry, I meant BobbyOne, not you.I just had a lapsus, maybe your request about where I rank Kodes absorbed so much menthal energy....in any case, sorry again.:)
     
  27. kiki

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  28. BobbyOne

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    Thanks, kiki: You brought me to laugh again: Your reduction of Nüsslein's status is really a funny joke. Even Charlie Chaplin (whom I admire) could not have make such a good joke!

    And now you even begin to belittle the very underrated Pancho Segura. A journeyman could not have won three majors and could not have got a matchpoint against champion Rosewall at Wembley when being 41.

    And believe me, Rosewall was really strong in 1962!
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  29. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Segura is the second best player of the 1950s behind Gonzales, in my opinion, as Kramer retired too early in the decade. Sedgman is neck and neck with Segura as Gonzales' main rival for the 1950s.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  30. BobbyOne

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    I agree. In my rankings Segura is among the top five twelve times and in the top 2 four times. But it's hard to decide if Segura or Sedgman was stronger.

    Sedgman has won more majors. Segura was probably the more talented player.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  31. pc1

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    I agree. To be honest I think Segura would easily defeat Kodes. Segura at his peak was able to defeat Gonzalez in his prime at Pro Majors!
     
  32. NonP

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    Sampras has played a few exos against today's players, most notably Federer. Agassi was still going relatively strong right up to his retirement. Edberg recently played with Tsonga (if not with the brilliance he showed a year or two before). And even Mac managed not to embarrass himself against Roddick in WTT a few years ago.

    I don't think so, at least not after his junior days. And surely you have seen posts here and elsewhere questioning Edberg's or other old-timers' potential in this era?

    This is stating the obvious, but OK.

    Ditto.

    This topic has been beaten to death. My own view is that there is indeed more depth today, but the quality of competition at the top has changed very little.

    Good to know. I wasn't talking about you in particular but making a general comment.
     
  33. Vcore89

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    1. Steffi Graf
    2. Margaret Court
    3. Chris Evert
    4. Martina Navralitova
    5. Monica Seles
    6. Justine Henin
    7. Suzanne Lenglen
    8. Helen Wills Moody
    9. Maureen Connolly
    10. Billie Jean King
     
  34. kiki

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    Did you enjoy the popular joke about Pockets?? I did not invented it, pros did...Edmondson beat Rosewall quite roundly IN A MAJOR....is he a better player than your beloved Segura?
     
  35. pc1

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    Rosewall was pretty old, I think over forty. BobbyOne's point was Segura was an extremely strong player into his forties.

    You're the one who constantly mentions that the Old Pro Tour in the 1950's had the strongest possible competition in history and Segura was probably one of the top two or three players over that decade with three majors won. He won a lof of tournaments in the 1950's. You're contradicting yourself by downgrading Segura.
     
  36. pc1

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    Some tournaments that Segura won



    Kiki here are some tournaments that Pancho Segura won and some tours he won.

    1. Segura defeated Kramer in the Paris Pro Indoors final in 1950 6-3 6-2 to win the tournament.
    2. Segura defeated Kramer in the semi and Frank Kovacs in the final to win the US Pro Champs in 1950.
    3. Segura went unbeaten in a round robin defeating Bobby Riggs, Frankie Parker, Van Horn and Pancho Gonzalez to win the 1951 US Pro Grasscourt Champs
    4. Segura won the German International Round Robin by defeating Pancho Gonzalez, Earn, Riggs in 1951
    5. Segura won the US Pro Claycourts by defeating Riggs in straight sets.
    6. Segura won the US Pro Champs by defeating Pancho Gonzalez in five sets.
    7. Segura won the Venezuelz Pro Round Robin by defeating McGregor, Frank Sedgman, and Jack Kramer going unbeaten.
    8. Segura won the Slazenger Pro Champs by defeating Frank Sedgman in the final in five sets.
    9. Segura won the Riccione Pro Champs by defeating Frank Sedgman
    10. Segura won the Rimini Pro Champs by defeating Frank Sedgman
    11. Segura won the Pacific Pro Champs by defeating Pancho Gonzalez in 1954
    12. Segura won the Australian Pro Champs by defeating Gonzalez in the semi and Sedgman in the final.
    13. Segura won the Alaska Indoor Champs by defeating Budge in the semi and Trabert in the final.
    14 Segura won the San Remo Pro Champs by defeating Buchholz, Lew Hoad and Gimeno in 1961.
    15 Segura won the Dutch Pro Champs by defeat Gimeno in 1961
    16 Segura won the Scheveningen Pro Champs by defeating Olmedo, Hoad and Ayala.
    17. Segura won the Cannes Pro Champs by defeating Ayala, Olmedo and Hoad in the final.

    Segura also won a number of tours over Parker, McGregor and in 1961 over Olmedo, Cooper and Buchholz who were in their primes. In a tour which Gonzalez won with Segura and the great Frank Sedgman participating, according to McCauley Segura defeated Sedgman in their individual matchup by a fraction, winning one more match 23 to 22. Considering how great Sedgman was that is the mark of a great player. Very few in the history of tennis could have done that. Sedgman was at his peak.

    Look at the names Segura defeated. If you really think he's journeyman then the names he defeating were average to below average.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  37. BobbyOne

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    The more I'm reflecting about yourself the more I come to the conclusion that you are a Legend Troll.

    I never read any hint about Pockets. I only read about Muscles. I'm reading about Rosewall since 40 years.

    Rosewall was 41 when losing to Edmondson who was a tough grasscourt player. Edmondson also beat Newcombe in that AO.
     
  38. pc1

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    More about Pancho Segura

    Kiki,

    Do you realize that Rod Laver called Segura's forehand the best he ever faced? Laver probably first faced Segura in 1963 when Segura was in his forties. Imagine how strong Segura's forehand was when he was younger! And of course Laver faced players with great forehands like Hoad, Newcombe, Okker, Gimeno, Nastase, Buchholz, Drobny among others.

    Segura's forehand has been called by many the greatest forehand in the history of tennis, among them Jack Kramer and Ellsworth Vines. Actually to be more accurate Kramer and Vines called Segura's forehand to be the greatest single shot in the history of tennis. Pancho Gonzalez said that as great as Budge's backhand was, Segura's forehand was even stronger. That's a lot to start with but he had more than just an awesome forehand.

    Segura actually has a lot in common with Roger Federer. Both have awesome forehands and are very mobile and nimble enough to hit their forehands a high percentage of the time. Segura had a fantastic volley, along the level of Ken Rosewall and Rod Laver. He had a better volley than Federer but not as good a serve. Segura had excellent touch, could lob extremly well. He was a terrific player.

    The links to the video below is I believe from the Slazenger Pro Champs in England in 1949. Segura defeated Dan Maskell and lost to Jack Kramer in four sets in the semi. Kramer won the tournament in four sets over Don Budge. Perry lost to Danny Pails in the first round so I don't get why they had the headline in the first video that Perry's shines at Pro Wimbledon.

    Anyway it shows a few seconds of the famous Segura forehand.

    http://www.britishpathe.com/video/perry-shines-at-professionals-wimbledon

    http://www.britishpathe.com/video/professional-tennis-tournament/query/segura
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  39. pc1

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    Modern equipment allows the players to hit their strokes better. The racquets are bigger therefore the hitting areas are bigger so there are fewer mishits, the strings are better, the racquets are lighter so you can get better racquet speed. The players themselves train to get themselves into better shape. The equipment doesn't force them to get into better shape any more than a modern car forces you to be a better driver than cars of the 1960's.

    Actually playing with a wood racquet forces you to learn different techniques instead of relying on groundstroke power to win all the rallies. You learn to volley better, lob, drop shot, change pace etc in order to win the point. It's hard to overpower people from the baseline with a tiny wooden racquet. It's heavier and more strain on the arm. You couldn't just flick your wrist and hit the ball back powerfully when you're in trouble like you can now unless you were Laver or Hoad.

    Switching from a wood racquet to a modern racquet is easier than the other way around in my opinion. It's usually easier to switch from lesser equipment to better equipment to state the obvious.

    Come on now, do you think they didn't have big serves in the 1960's and 1970's? John Newcombe, Arthur Ashe, Pancho Gonzalez, Barry MacKay, Stan Smith, Borg, McEnroe, Tanner, Dibley, Stolle, Fraser. Alexander, Hoad are just a few names. Laver was an excellent server and yes he was smaller than the average player but more powerful than the average touring player.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  40. pc1

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    Yes it is.
     
  41. Mustard

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    Just to confirm, Segura turned professional at the same time as Kramer and Pails, i.e. late 1947, so Segura definitely wouldn't have met Laver in a match until Laver had turned professional.

    Whenever Jimmy Connors is asked about great players from the past, he talks about his old coach, Segura, and Gonzales.
     
  42. pc1

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    No problem Kiki. That happens.:)
     
  43. kiki

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    The top 6 of the 50´s, which is, I stated it before, one of the toughest eras ever if not the toughest at the top are Kramer,Sedgman,Gonzales,Hoad,Rosewall and Trabert.Those guys won majors, and Cooper and Anderson won majors, too, as amateurs.Plus they continued to dominate as pros.Segura´s problem ( just as Nusslein) is that his record is poor and can´t compare to the others.However, I heard a bit about him being a very talented player.Nusslein,Segura,Mecir,Rios,Murray,Okker,Lutz,Pecci and Ramirez/ Gottfried and Franulovic/Pilic may have been the most talented guys to never win a major.But this fact just does not allow them to be in the big boys leagues,IMO.
     
  44. kiki

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    Then you are a bad Rosewall supporter.Pockets was the common way to descirbe him in the elite group while Muscless was more of a journalists topic.
     
  45. pc1

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    Come on guys, you both are pretty good in discussions. Take it easy.
     
  46. pc1

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    How is Segura's record poor? Did you see my list of some of his tournament victories and the Pro Majors in post 186 here? He defeated Frank Sedgman head to head! It's a fantastic record.

    Segura would have destroyed Cooper and Anderson in my opinion. You can't put players like Segura and Nusslein with guys like Bob Lutz.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  47. Mustard

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    Really Kiki? First you have a go at Vines, then Nusslein and now Segura? All 3 of them are all-time greats of tennis.
     
  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    While I don´t want to underrate him, I wonder how many majors did he win at RG,Wimbleodn,US Championships (later US Open) and the Australian Championships ( later AO).Same for Nusslein.

    And I know pros were banned...but Pancho Gonzales won Forest Hills twice in a row and also the DC if memory serves.

    Another great champion who was IMO, the 7 th best player of the great 1950´s troop was Alex Olmedo, a Wimbledon and US Opne winner and the man that singlehandedly restored the DC to the US... he even dared beating laver in a slam title¡¡¡
     
  49. Mustard

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    On the 1960 world pro tour, Segura beat Olmedo more times than vice versa. This means that even a 38 year old Segura was too strong for the best amateur player of 1959.
     
  50. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Its all a long line of delusions , all in kiki la la land :

    kodes being on the same level as vines
    kodes being on the same level as djoker
    kodes being better than nusslein
    federer is in the 3rd tier of all time greats .....

    and it goes on and on ....
     

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