Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nusslein was banned from the amateurs. He was found guilty of accepting gifts and money by the German Tennis Federation, who said that it was tantamount to turning professional. Nusslein had no choice but to play tennis professionally if he wanted to play tennis competitions. I don't know if Nusslein ever even played a match as an amateur.

    And as I've already pointed out, Nusslein won Roland Garros twice as a professional in the French Pro. Best clay-court player of the 1930s, most probably.

    Although Gonzales turned professional at age 21, he had already had 3 years as an amateur before this. And Segura, while being a good player as an amateur (reaching 4 US Championships semi finals in a row from 1942-1945, and the quarters in 1946 and 1947), he really came into his own a few years into his professional career (around 1950).

    When Segura turned professional in late 1947, Kramer (Wimbledon and US Championships holder) and Pails (Australian Championships holder) also turned professional. Kramer was to challenge the world's best professional player, Riggs, and Pails and Segura were to play against each other on the undercard of the tour. Pails won the tour 41-31, so Segura didn't have the quickest start early on in his professional career. As I said, it was around 1950 that he went up several levels, winning the US Pro (the first of 3 in a row on different surfaces) and becoming the second best player in the world behind Kramer.

    Segura also did a lot better on the 1951 world pro tour against Kramer than what Gonzales had managed the previous year.

    And Segura was better than Olmedo in 1960, as the world pro tour showed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Your logic and knowledge about tennis is really unique. How can you say that Nüsslein and Segura did not win a major? Many posters have informed you that both have won pro majors. In my count Nüsslein won 11 pro majors 1933 to 1939 and Segura has won three pro majors (1950 to 1952).

    Nüsslein was banned at 16 from the amateur circuit. In fact he never played an amateur match! Believe me, I know a quite a bit about the Little Nut...

    Segura, as also other posters told you, reached his prime only at 29 which is an exception of the rule that then players used to reach their prime at about 25.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  3. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Again using your same logic Kodes is perhaps superior to Pancho Gonzalez because he won three majors to Pancho Gonzalez's two majors. And of course according to official ATP records Pancho Gonzalez won three tournaments in his career so Kodes would been superior there also because Kodes won eight tournaments in his career according to the ATP.

    The reality is that Kodes is not close to Pancho Gonzalez in talent and accomplishments. And the other Pancho, Pancho Segura is one of the all time greats.

    So are we to the point now that Jan Kodes is superior to Pancho Gonzalez much less Pancho Segura?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So Segura won 3 pro majors with no qualified pro in other than Gonzales and Kramer? why did not Segura win a por major after 1952, why did it happen?

    As for Nusslein, his record looks far better than the equatorian...but, which were the draws upon he took the 11 titles? I have no problem with them, just we need to be serious...
     
  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I never said Kodes better than GOnzales.It is your imagination that got you so far...unbelievable.

    Pancho was a clean better player than Kodes.But Segura and Nusslein...

    you know, it is a marketing thing.If your tour has such greats like Kramer,Sedgman and Gonzales ( till Hoad and Rosewall joint) but nothing else, you want to sell it and not get people bored of seeing the same names all over...it just minors the tour, thus, the income players get.It is so clean and logical...same for Nusslein in the midst of a Tilden, a Cochet or a Perry.It lowers down public and media attention because of too much seen, so sell other heros...that was the role that excellent players ( I never questioned that) like the Equatorian Pancho and the German Nusslein brought in...it made them earn real money and boosted a bit the tour.

    Kodes faced a much much deeper field than Segura and won 3 majors with 128 players in...not possible to compare.Just another league...
     
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Segura an all time great? WOWWWW
     
  7. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Bobby Riggs, Elwood Cooke, Van Horne, Kovacs, Budge were top players that were among Segura's other victims in the US Pros that he won.
     
  8. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Yes he is. He accomplished more in the super tough Old Pro Tour of the 1950's than most players you would call Hall of Famers in their careers.
     
  9. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I know you don't mean that but I'm am simply using your own logic when you discuss Segura. You're not being consistent with your logic and reasoning.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Because of Gonzales mostly, who beat him in a lot of pro majors.

    In the 1950 US Pro, Segura beat Nogrady, Van Horn, Kramer and Kovacs
    In the 1951 US Pro, Segura beat Parker, Van Horn, Riggs and Gonzales
    In the 1952 US Pro, Segura beat Doyle, Budge and Gonzales

    Segura also reached the final of another 4 US Pros (1955, 1956, 1957, 1962)
    Segura also famously reached the final of 4 Wembley Pros (1951, 1957, 1959, 1960) without ever winning the tournament.

    In the 1934 US Pro, Nusslein beat Jennings, Pare, Vines and Kozeluh
    In the 1937 French Pro, Nusslein beat Ramillon, Tilden and Cochet
    In the 1937 Wembley Pro, Nusslein beat Plaa, Stoefen and Tilden
    In the 1938 French Pro, Nusslein beat Pettit, Plaa and Tilden
    In the 1938 Wembley Pro, Nusslein beat Tilden
     
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Only Riggs and Budge have credentials, Riggs was a decent champion but Budge was a truley great one...the rest of the names are unknown.
     
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So Segure is whispered in the same sentence as Gonzales, now?? I am sorry, I am getting lost.
     
  13. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Segura was Gonzales' biggest long term rival, along with Sedgman. But for Gonzales, Segura would have won a lot more. Gonzales thwarted him many times in the US Pro, the Tournament of Champions and the Wembley Pro.
     
  14. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kiki,

    I know you understand and are pretending to be confused. You know exactly what I mean.
     
  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    While it is not my intention to downgrade him, ( at least not to the levels most posters downgraded Kodes), I must say that:

    1950: only Kramer is a big name
    1951: this is a great win, with Gonzales,Parker,Riggs ( a bit old )...but just like Gimeno in 67 or Pecci in RG 79 (Vilas,Connors,Solomon,Barazutti)
    1952:Budge was an old man, 14 years after his prime, Doyle, never hear dof and Gonzales was a very good win.

    That credits Segura as a very dangerous upper class journeyman, but he lacks credentials to even start to be compared with all timers.Mayer beat Borg and Mc Enroe at the 1980 Masters, I don´t think Segura is better than Gene Mayer ( who also beat Lendl...and played double handed both sides, jsut as Segura¡¡¡)

    Nusslein:

    1934:Tilden is very old, Vines is a great win, the rest are unknown
    1937: looks like a senior event.Tilden and Cochet OVER their 40´.. the rest is just a repetition...mere journeymen and GRANFA Tilden, sorry, but Nusslein had wins that were so much predictable...he was like Clerc or Gerulaitis AT MOST....
     
  16. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Segura is the second best player of the 1950s, kiki. At worst, he is the third best of the 1950s.
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, You don't have understanding of tennis history, or you just are trolling.

    Segura is in Hall of Fame.

    When you say Kovacs and van Horn are unknown you are a bloody ignorant, as so often you have proved...

    Old Tilden played tremendously in 1934 and even later. He won 26 matches against world's best, Vines, in their big tour.

    In 1937 Cochet was NOT over his 40's...

    Austria's former chancellor, Bruno Kreisky, who was respected all over the world, once said to an ignorant journalist: "Learn history!". The same is true for you!
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  18. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    wrong post
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  19. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    That's right. Vines once made a list of the Top 10 players from Budge to the Open Era. He ranked Segura #5.

    Here's what Bobby Riggs said about him:

    Segura is the most underrated of professional champions.

    Everybody forgets he won the U.S. pro tournament three years in a row (1950-51-52). I played the 1950 tournament at Forest Hills and lost in the semis to Kovacs, who was in fantastic form, and believe it or not, Segura put out Kramer in the other semis and proceeded to beat Kovacs, too, for the title.

    Segura's two-hand forehanded is the best single shot in tennis history, even superior to Budge's backhand ... he could do even more with it because of the deception. Segura also had the most deceptive dropshot in the game's history.
     
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki,

    Nüsslein was better than Clerc and Gerulaitis and, listen, even than Jan Kodes.

    Nüsslein was arguably No.2 in two years while the three former never were...
     
  21. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    This marketing argument is really a pathetic angle to take, because we're talking about players who have been regarded as greats long after the tours were ended.

    Obviously to evaluate a player you have to consider how everyone regarded him, from his time all the way to the present .... you can't just quote his fellow pros on the tour and say, "Oh that was just marketing. That's why these posters here on Talk Tennis regard Nusslein so highly ... because Tilden and Budge spoke so highly of him."

    You simply have no idea how these players have been regarded by experts. What was Vines' "marketing" consideration when he ranked Segura #5 among all greats from the 1930s to the 60s?

    Vines was not even Segura's fellow touring pro, so no chance he did it out of camaraderie.

    Why is Nusslein regarded as possibly the best claycourter of the 30s, possibly even better than von Cramm? Why?

    You badly need to start studying these eras yourself. All you do is argue from the list of titlists and runners-up, throwing in a few other names here and there. No sign that you've yet studied the 30s or 50s in any substantial way.

    You can start by finding out what experts have said about Nusslein and Segura. We've given you some idea but this is work you really need to do on your own.
     
  22. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Segura was a great player, but is not usually rated as the third best of the 1950's. That would make him an all-time top ten player, which few people rate him as.
    I would rate the following ahead of him; Kramer, Gonzales, Sedgman, Hoad, Rosewall. Segura was about equal to Trabert, who I think beat Segura in a head to head in 1958, and Trabert won four Roland Garros tournaments, to zero for Segura.
    Segura's peak was brief, about 1951 to 1953, when he was beating Gonzales and Sedgman in some big tournaments. Before 1950, he lost a head to head tour against Dinny Pails, a second level player. Segura was about thirty years old before he developed his game.
    Kramer claimed that Segura only learned to play tennis for real as a result of their hth tour in 1950-51.
    Any other myths out there?
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  23. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Kramer retired too early in the decade (in early 1954, I believe), and only returned for brief tours against Hoad and Rosewall a few years later. Hoad didn't start on the professional tour until late 1957. Rosewall's best years were in the 1960s, and Segura was certainly better than Trabert.

    The Pails vs. Segura tour was in 1948, on the undercard of the Kramer vs. Riggs tour. Kramer, Pails and Segura all turn professional in late 1947 with this very tour all planned out. Pails won the tour 41-31, but Segura struggled with the fast indoor surfaces back then and wasn't yet the Segura of a few years later. Calling Pails "second level" is silly when Pails was the Australian Championships title holder when he turned professional, and probably the second best amateur of 1947 behind Kramer. Pails was better than Segura at the time, just about.

    Segura's prime was 1950-1957, when he was always top 3 in the world on my list.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  24. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Kramer claimed that Segura had no real strategy until Kramer taught him how to think in the 1950-51 tour.
    In the 1958 tour, Trabert defeated Segura 34 to 31, and this was on the cruddy indoor mess the travelling pros carried with them, which Segura was well accustomed to.
    Rosewall's best years were from 1956 to 1965. He had the misfortune to be overshadowed by the two greatest players ever (in Rosewall's own estimation) in the late 1950's, Hoad and Gonzales, and by Laver from 1964 (Rosewall's pick as #3 all-time).
     
  25. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Federer still too young at the 2002 Wimbledon? Just one year away from his first Wimbledon title? Okay, if you want to do that, why on earth don't you say that about Borg and Connors at the 1973 Wimbledon? Connors was still one year away from his first Wimbledon, and had not yet won any majors. Borg had not yet won a tournament of any kind, and was three years away from his first Wimbledon.

    Do you have any idea what it means to be consistent?
     
  26. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Pails did not challenge at Wimbledon and Forest Hills, the real big-time of tennis. The Aussie title was weak in 1947, no foreign players.
    Please, folks, when you quote titles and title wins, look at the quality of the field. This tells you what the win really means.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  27. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    You missed a big one. Segura won the 1958 LA Masters round robin, going undefeated.
    He won at Tel Aviv in 1959.
    Sedgman was clearly off his game in 1954.
     
  28. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    one of the pleasures visiting london for me is to go to the wimbledon library and spend and afternoon reading through some of the biographies of great players of the past. one book i can wholeheartedly recommend is the Nüsslein-biography by robert geist. but i´m sure you must have read it.
     
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That why I wrote some of his tournament victories. I'm surprised I missed that. Thanks for helping.

    Not convinced Sedgman was off his game. They played a lot of matches and the level should even out. However I do think it's possible Sedgman was the better player but either way it's close.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  30. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Old DinnyPails was still good enough to beat Hoad, who came fresh from his Wimbledon win, in the 1957 Forest Hills round robin.
     
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I have Segura only as No. 4 for 1953 and 1957.
     
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Segura was already 37 in that tour. You should not forget it.
     
  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, I have read it and enjoyed it. It's a pity there is no English version.
     
  34. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    it´s a pity alright, maybe as an e-book it will happen?
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It is OK, Fed was not young but close to his peak just the same way Connors in 1973.I just forgot Federer was older than I thought he was but it is my bad.
     
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Agreed.Segura, while a great player, is clearly overrated.

    Themn again, marketing issues to enhance a tour that otherwise would be ab eternum repetition of Kramer vs Gonzales, multiplied by 100.

    I think Trabert edges out Segura, who may have been better than the other 3:Cooper,Anderson and Olmemdo.
     
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    How many majors did Van Horn get? You can´t be serious¡¡¡
     
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Kodes is just as bit un derrated as Nusslein is overrated.
     
  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Now, I wait for Bobbyone to throw me all factual and mythical data about how great Giammalva father was...or Buch Bucholtz for that matter...
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Believe me, they are selling you all they want to sell to you.That is called marketing.now and in the 30´s...
     
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Segura was even with Trabert till three or four matches before the end of the tour.
     
  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Van Horn beat Bromwich in the 1939 US Championships and reached final against No.1, Bobby Riggs.

    I never claimed that van Horn was an all-time great like Kramer or Gonzalez or Borg.

    He was just a very good player and not "unknown", as you called him.

    Learn history!.
     
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Nüsslein overrated?? Ask any tennis fan and you will be astonished how few of them are knowing the name of Nüsslein.

    But Talk Tennis should be a blog where true experts discuss each other and not one to belittle great players...

    Learn history!
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, from Kurt Waldheim....
     
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Sam Giammalva was a fine player and reached QFs of the 1956 US Championships where he lost to Hoad in four sets.

    Buchholz was a very strong player who almost beat Rod Laver in the 1960 US Champ.s and also Neale Fraser in the 1960 Wimbledon. As a pro he beat Rosewall at least 12 times, won the 1962 US Pro (conceded a limited field), and gave Hoad a tough battle in the 1962 and 1963 Wembley tournaments.

    I rank him No.4 for 1963 and No.5 for 1964, 1965 and 1966.

    Learn history!
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    The man who said "Learn history" was a Jew, not a ****...

    Learn history!
     
  47. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    This is a joke. Hoad was in total confusion, and experienced a crisis of confidence at this time. Before long, he was beating everyone on the tour.
    I think you mean 1957 LA Masters, not Forest Hills.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  48. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    I cannot understand why Segura, a great clay-courter, never won at Roland Garros, while Trabert won there four times (1954, 1955, 1956, 1959).
    This should have been his home territory.
     
  49. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Hoad turned pro before 1957 US Champs. Do you mean 1956 ?
    The 1962 Cleveland event was no longer being billed as the US Pro, because the USPLTA was holding its own US Pro in D.C.
    It was now called the World Professional Championships, a nice modest title with a VERY modest field.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2012
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, it's also a riddle for me, considering that he won claycourt tournaments as late as 1961 and 1962 against strong competition.

    But we see how strong the pro tour in the 1950s was.
     

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