Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    no I've read the stuff that y'all post over here bout him, just it doesn't make sense to me this with Hoad. Hell, Pancho's 2-1 in Pro slam finals, yet he'd say a quote like that.
    And all the hyped up playing level and he's 1-7 in pro finals how is that possible?
     
    #51
  2. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Gonzales was not toppled as the world's best, though. He won the 1961 US Pro and the 1961 World Pro Tour.
     
    #52
  3. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Hoad had all sorts of back and foot injuries from 1960 onwards. He even had a big toe amputated in 1965.
     
    #53
  4. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    that's unfortunate
     
    #54
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Hoad reached rather seldom his peak but when he did he was awesome. You just should trust Pancho Gonzalez, Ken Rosewall and Rod Laver...
     
    #55
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Most experts agree that Rosewall was at least as successful as Gonzalez in 1961.

    You can't diminish the importance of French Pro and Wembley.

    US Pro was virtually a 4 man tournament while Roland Garros and Wembley were 16 man events.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
    #56
  7. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'm not diminishing their importance. You can argue Rosewall as a co-number 1 for 1961, certainly, but if we're only going to name one player, then we have to say that Gonzales wasn't toppled, as he won yet another world pro tour and an 8th US Pro title.
     
    #57
  8. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    So hard to pick ten. I guess it would look something like this:

    1. Federer
    2. Laver
    3. Sampras
    4. Gonzales
    5. Borg
    6. Rosewall
    7. Tilden
    8. Nadal
    9. Connors
    10. Agassi
     
    #58
  9. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Bill Tilden was playing as an amateur as early as the first world war, and as a professional as late as 1952. He even played against Gonzales in one match. That's nearly 40 years of tennis activity. I think it's pretty unprecedented.
     
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  10. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    so if I was to trust him....and his ranking of the best past players...Rosewall is only 6th with Perry, Budge, Kramer and even Hoad ahead of him?
     
    #60
  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's interesting because in early 1963, a few months into Laver's professional career, he said something along the lines of "I thought Hoad was very good, but Rosewall is even better. I'm going to have to learn how to play tennis all over again if I'm going to match these guys."
     
    #61
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree that Gonzalez was n't toppled and you could agree that also Rosewall was n't toppled. That would be fair.

    At least facts are telling so...
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
    #62
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Interesting list: Your top seven are identic with mine but we differ totally in the order.

    I will never realize that Federer could be ahead of Laver, Rosewall, Gonzalez and Tilden. He mostly played in a weak era.
     
    #63
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree. His highlights might be his wins against Budge as a grandpa and his almost beating Riggs in 1946 as a great-grandpa...
     
    #64
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I concede that Laver was wrong when ranking Rosewall only sixth (even though in his book he wrote that Muscles was his toughest opponent) but as told both Rosewall and Laver seem to refer to Hoad's absolute peak which probably was the all-time greatest.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
    #65
  16. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Bobby why do you rank Borg ahead of Federer and Sampras?
     
    #66
  17. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    But Gonzales had been the top dog since 1954. He was way out in the lead as the best from 1954-1957 (1956 being his best year ever), despite strong challenges from Segura and Sedgman. In 1958, Sedgman did very well on the tournament scene (winning the Wembley Pro and also the Kooyong tournament), and Hoad gave Gonzales a big scare on the world pro tour, but Gonzales came back to win the world pro tour against Hoad and also won the US Pro and the Tournament of Champions.

    In 1959, Hoad was right on Gonzales' back, winning more matches than he lost against Gonzales on the 1959 world pro tour, but it was a 4-man tour, and Gonzales was unbeaten against Cooper and Anderson, while Hoad lost some matches to them. Gonzales won the US Pro by thrashing Hoad in straight sets, but Hoad paid Gonzales back in the Tournament of Champions. However, Gonzales had not been toppled.

    In 1960, Gonzales didn't play tournaments due to disputes with Kramer following the end of that 7 year contract that Kramer had gotten Gonzales to sign back in 1953, but Gonzales dominated the 4-man world pro tour, which included Rosewall.

    And 1961 we've already mentioned. Gonzales then went into retirement for 18 months, came back for the 1963 US Pro at Forest Hills after negotiating a $5,000 fee for his participation. Gonzales lost his first match back to Alex Olmedo, in a terrible performance where Gonzales won just 1 game in the last 2 sets. The tournament was a financial disaster and none of the other players got paid a penny piece because the promotor couldn't meet the costs. Since Gonzales' initial retirement at the end of 1961, Rosewall had taken over as the world's best player, while Gonzales was 35 years old by the time of his 1963 return.

    I believe that was the only match Gonzales played in 1963, before he returned for a full year's schedule in 1964. Gonzales was still a very good player, but his consistency had dropped off and some other players (Laver, Rosewall, Gimeno) had overtaken him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2012
    #67
  18. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    That's your opinion.

    And who, exactly, were the titans of the game that Tilden vanquished? Bill Johnston? At some point, you just have to marvel at numbers of dominance and longevity. If Tilden had lost more often to Johnston, the latter would be a bigger name at the expense of Tilden's dominance.
     
    #68
  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Good question. I'm aware that it's bold to rank Borg ahead of Sampras and Federer and it's a tough case.

    Borg had a rather short career but during it he achieved very much and played on a very high level. His percentages of played and won were awesome. His doubles FO and Wimbledon were great.

    Thanks that you don't question my top four. I think they are in a class of their own.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
    #69
  20. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    My top 10 are a bit different
     
    #70
  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree with all you wrote. I just would say that Gonzalez was not overtaken by Gimeno in 1964 and 1965 (and I guess you know that I'm a great Gimeno admirer!).
     
    #71
  22. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    #72
  23. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    #73
  24. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Just because Laver found Rosewall to be his toughest opponent doesn't make Rosewall better than some of Laver's other opponents, or better than other greats of different times. It just means that Rosewall was a tough matchup for Laver. Even so, Laver had a wide H2H advantage over Rosewall.
     
    #74
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You are right that Tilden did not have as strong competition as Laver, Rosewall and Gonzalez had. But still he met Johnston (very strong) and Richards and Williams and Borotra (almost always a victim of Tilden) and Lacoste whom he beat at the beginning of their rivalry.

    "GOAT" Federer had Hewitt, Philippoussis and Roddick who hardly can be called all-time greats, until Nadal arrived in his prime and defeated Federer quite often.
     
    #75
  26. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I believe they met 143 times, with Laver winning 80 and Rosewall winning 63. At the end of 1963, Rosewall was leading the head-to-head 33-12.
     
    #76
  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    But at least you seem to find my rankings of L,R,G,T is not a shame....
     
    #77
  28. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Those are upper echelon legends no doubt, and I think Laver is the best of those 4 and has the best case for GOAT out of those four. Everybody sees things differently though, and for me when it comes to the top 10 rankings I think Federer is my choice for the number 1 spot. That opinion doesn't seem to be shared by some on this section of the forum but to each their own.
     
    #78
  29. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    1. Rod Laver
    2. Bill Tilden
    3. Roger Federer
    4. Don Budge
    5. Pancho Gonzales
    6. H.L. Doherty
    7. Pete Sampras
    8. Ken Rosewall
    9. Bjorn Borg
    10. Jack Kramer
     
    #79
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    .

    You are right that Laver's hth was not as overwhelming as one could think. Old Man once wrote that the balance is 99:83. It's a pity that he did not give details and sources but I believe he is right.

    It's true that Laver dominated Rosewall in most years but we should consider that Laver had the advantage of age: They mostly played each other when Rosewall was a senior (from 1965 onwards). Age difference is almost four years.

    And especially we can argue that Rosewall has a positive balance in those events which mattered most: GS, Pro GS, Masters and WCT finals. Muscles leads 10:7 against the Rocket. I mention this pretty often because it is not reported elsewhere....
     
    #80
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    What HTH Gimeno vs Pancho?
     
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  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You forgot Cochet,theclutch player of the 20
     
    #82
  33. Monsieur_DeLarge

    Monsieur_DeLarge Semi-Pro

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    Previously posted elsewhere:
    (and listed alphabetically within each tier)

    Tier 1:
    Federer, Gonzalez, Laver, Sampras, Tilden

    Tier 2:
    Borg, Budge, Kramer, Nadal, Rosewall

    So that's my ten, but I'd be loathe to rank them more specifically. If forced, I'd maybe do something like...

    1. Federer / Gonzalez / Laver / Tilden
    5. Sampras / Borg / Budge / Rosewall
    9. Kramer / Nadal

    And I sort of want to put Lendl in there as well... :(


    Regards,
    MDL
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #83
  34. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    A slam is much easier to win in weak eras than strong eras..and looks like tardism blinds the right judgement of that definite difference
     
    #84
  35. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    open era

    federer
    borg
    sampras
    nadal

    and djokovic is somewhere towards the bottom of the top 10.. for his 2011 alone. absolutely beat up on peak nadal across 3 surfaces and federer across all speeds of hard courts.
     
    #85
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I don't know the hth but I guess that Pancho dominated Gimeno till 1965 and has the edge in head to head.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #86
  37. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    1. Laver
    2. Gonzales
    3. Federer
    4. Rosewall
    5. Tilden
    6. Borg
    7. Sampras
    8. Budge
    9. Nadal
    10. Kramer

    --

    w/Lendl, Connors, Vines, Perry and McEnroe creeping.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
    #87
  38. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    I see Kramer on a few people's lists...someone enlighten me about him. I see total 5 combined slams (amateur and pro) on wikipedia.
     
    #88
  39. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    why not give an actual ranking? saying federer, tilden, budge, nadal et al. played in a weak era and ranking them as weak era benefactors is pretty disrespectful to such awesome players, almost as if you dont even concede that they were that great at all.
     
    #89
  40. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    kiki's very biased against certain players or eras
     
    #90
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Kramer was the only player in history who won all big pro tours he played: against Riggs, Gonzalez, Segura and Sedgman.
     
    #91
  42. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    Agree.....But why do you think Sampras's era was stronger than Federer's. They look pretty much the same to me.
     
    #92
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You have the same seven players on top that I have (but in different order). I'm glad you give Rosewall a top place.
     
    #93
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    it is not my fault if you don´t have any clue about true competitive eras.

    And I rate very high Cochet,lacoste,Tilden,Budge,Emmo...even Vines,who never had 25% of difficulties Kodes found...as we all knwo if we left aside marketing issues...
     
    #94
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Easy.

    Fed tough rivals are Hewitt,Safin,Djokovic,Roddick,Nadal and that´s it.

    sampras:Agassi.Becker,Edberg,Courier,Kuerten,Rafter,Bruguera,Stich,Ivanisevic and Krajicek.Can you compare? Sampras era is twice harder than Federer era
     
    #95
  46. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    Bruguera is much better than Ferrero?? Stich is much better than Haas (when he is playing)? Krajicek than Nalbandian? Ivanicevic than Murray?? Rafter than Del Potro?

    And all that weren't exactly in Sampras's era. Sampras played against Courier, but Courier's peak was before Sampras's. It's like mentioning Agassi in Fed's era. The same may be said about Edberg.

    Fed's era also had other players who were dangerous like Davydenko, Henman, Coria, etc. If they aren't that great is also because of Federer. How many times did RF defeat Davydenko at the late stage of a slam? And so other cases.
     
    #96
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree with you.
     
    #97
  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    .. and I left out Muster and Chang...

    Fed´s talent is enormous but he has benefitted so much of a weak era...I think 90% of *******s will change their minds if they are inteligent enough...
     
    #98
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Sorry but yes.Bruguera is far better than Ferrero, Stich beats Hass left and right,Krajicek would do nasty things with Nabanouan, Ivanisevic is a winner which MurraY has yet to prove and Rafter vs the argentinina? HAHAHAHAHA

    Fed only had devoted but limited Hewitt and Roddick and talented by inconsistent Safina later Djoker and Nadal

    briefly and plainly, imagine I talk about Laver: Hewitt is like Santana,Roddick like Stolle, Safin like old Hoad or old Pancho, and then, Laver faces Newcombe (Nadal) and Roche (djoker)...where do I put Ashe,Rosewall,Kodes,Nasty,Smith,Emerson,Fraser or Gimeno, just to give you some names?

    Not to mention up and coming guys named Borg? Connors? Vilas? Tanner?

    well, that is the difference between Laver and Fed´s era.Laver era is AT LEAST twice as difficult as Fed which means Laver has 22 majors ( excluded pro majors)...
     
    #99
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    As soon as Federer got a prime Nadal as main opponent he mostly lost to Rafa...
     

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