Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Given how we argue about tennis, I think it would be a good idea to keep politics out of this forum.
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash, I would say, the Muslim invasion is rather a serious religious problem than a political.
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    hahaha.good idea.Shall we compare former politicians to current ones?

    Like Obama/Federer or Nadal/Merkel against Tilden/Roosevelt or Hoad/Churchill??

    would be fun.
     
  4. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ...and you are the perfect example of that, right?
     
  5. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    I agree....this forum used to have a Rants and Raves that was eventually totally removed as it got to heated. Politics should probably be avoided.
     
  6. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I agree. It's a tennis forum. Politics and religion often lead to horrible arguments.
     
  7. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Using the term "invasion" is very political. If you disagree, let's say we let religious matters outside of this forum as well.
     
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Flash and pc1: Okay, I understand.
     
  9. Doug_Hartley_2012

    Doug_Hartley_2012 Rookie

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    So difficult to pick over a century of competition. If we narrow it down to 1900 - 2012 and split it evenly pre and post 1956, it will suggest two top 5s something like this.1900-1956 ......Tilden, Budge, Gonzales, Vines, Kramer. With Lacoste a maybe. 1957-2012 .....Rosewall, Laver, Federer,Sampras, Borg. Other contenders...Lendl,McEnroe, Nadal. However, I am pretty comfortable with the 1957-2012 top 5. It's the earlier top 5 I am less sure about.
     
  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Doug, Excellent choice.
     
  11. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Joining the Crusades anytime soon?



     
  12. Dan Lobb

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    Hoad stated in 1953, when rejecting Kramer's offer to turn pro for 1954 and tour against Kramer in a best-of-100 series, that he wanted to win Wimbledon twice BEFORE turning pro, which he did.
    Rosewall could have waited to win at Wimbledon before turning pro, and gained a better contract for doing so, although he would need to have waited until 1958 to do so.
     
  13. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    GOAT Candidates: Rosewall, Tilden, Federer
    Other five (no particular order): Gonzales, Laver, Lendl (very underrated), Sampras, Borg
    Other all-time greats: Budge, Perry, Cochet, Kramer, Connors, Agassi, Nadal, McEnroe, Wilander, Lacoste, Becker, Edberg
    He will be there pretty soon: Djokovic
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Federic, I could be glad you rank Rosewall in the first group but I find it strange you put Laver into a lower group than Rosewall and the other two.
     
  15. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    And I'm surprised that you put Connors in the third tier. I think he is as underrated as Lendl.
     
  16. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    I've just explained on the other thread why I consider Rosewall superior to Laver. In my opinion his career achievements are just better. Laver is a giant, but not a GOAT candidate in my opinion. I think this forum is overrating him :)
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Federic,

    We should consider that Laver won three Grand Slams and Rosewall "only" one.
     
  18. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    most of the tennis world happens to agree with this forum :)
     
  19. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    Nope, two against one. The 1962 Grand Slam doesn't count, it was against amateur players: 1967 and 1969 are the real ones, against Rosewall's 1963.


    It doesn't matter that much to me.
    I just look at their career achievements... I think they speak clearly. 19 undisputed Majors against 14. 1957-72 against 1964-69. Head-to-head in big tournaments: Rosewall 9, Laver 7 (and Rosewall was four years older).
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    treblings, tennis world is not always the truth per se, but regarding Laver tennis world and this forum are correct in putting him into first tier.
     
  21. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    i was just stating what i believe is a fact. this forum has a reputation of over and underrating players, Laver is not one of them, imo.
    you´re more than welcome to your opinion and i enjoy reading your debates even if i don´t regularly contribute. it all helps making youngsters aware of the history of our beautiful sport:)
     
  22. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    isn´t that the truth:)
    as you said before, some players are underrated and nearly forgotten and it´s a good thing that they get discussed here and remembered. i don´t mind even if for example kiki overpromotes Jan Kodes in a rather ridiculous way.
    because Kodes should be remembered.
    or someone like your own Hanne Nüsslein or many of the other pro players who where banned from the amateur scene
     
  23. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Mmmm I'm not do sure about that. Older historians perhaps, but I find current experts/people in the tennis world to see things a bit differently
     
  24. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    interesting.
    they probably lean more towards the more current players?
    just to clear up a possible misunderstanding. i was talking about Laver being in the first tier not the undisputed goat:)
     
  25. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Ok yeah I think Laver is generally considered first tier. I was going more in line with Rosewall, Gonzales, Tilden not being mentioned/considered much by contemporary media. Generally it's Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg and Nadal that are thought upon as high tier greats by conntemporary media
     
  26. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    that´s what i really like about this forum. it discusses great players that in my opinion get overlooked by the media and the tennis playing world in general. you don´t see me posting much here, because i have to confess i´m not into ranking:)
    but i like that they get talked about here and recognized
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That's what I enjoy also. It's (hopefully) reasonable discussion about history and past players.
     
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    treblings, I agree. By the way, Nüsslein is not my own since he was German and I'm from Austria but it's nice you called him by his very nickname, Hanne, which sounds a bit female....
     
  29. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    he´s one of your favourite players, admit it:)
    i know that he´s German of course, read the wonderful book.
    and we´re both Austrian, is it snowing at the moment in your hometown?
     
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Forza, You surely are right that the modern experts and fans are more focussed to current players. But even if we have a Federer hype world-wide, many experts still appreciate Rod Laver (and forget about Rosewall, Gonzalez, Tilden, as the ugly Tennis Channel list showed).
     
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I only can agree.
     
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, Nüsslein is one of my favourite players. He is so much underrated and unknown to many fans and maybe even experts. I rank him top claycourt player of the 1930s, ahead of von Cramm, Perry, Crawford...

    Yes, it's snowing just now in my city where Danube is seldom as blue as described in that wonderful Waltz...
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  33. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    i wonder whether the danube was in fact blue when Strauss wrote his famous waltz:)

    Nüsslein being the top claycourt player of the 30´s?
     
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Nüsslein won 9 of his 11 pro majors on clay. He defeated Kozeluh, Vines, Cochet, Tilden (who even had beaten Budge in the SFs of Southport 1939). After his 1938 crushing Tilden at Paris, Big Bill said that Nüsslein was stronger than Lacoste...

    Tilden also reported that Hans used to beat von Cramm in practice matches. He lost their only official match in four sets when he was handicapped by a cold.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  35. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    I disagree, because Pro Majors were not so great in the 30s. They become great only in 1939, when Budge joined the professional circuit, and Perry and Vines started to play more tournaments (until 1938 they preferred tours). In my opinion the only real Major won by Nüsslein was Southport 1939.
    I still rate von Cramm ahead of him. Anyway, he was a great player (world no. 3 in 1939 for sure), whose career was destroyed by federation's stupidity: how can you ban a 15/16 years old boy?
     
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Federic, You are rather bold to take off 10 majors from Nüsslein. For instance in 1934 he won the prestigious US Pro beating Vines (probably world's No.1) and Kozeluh. In 1933 he won the pro world championship defeating a still fabulous Tilden and Kozeluh. In other majors he beat strong Cochet plus Tilden. Don't underrate players like Plaa and Ramillon. Both were world pro champions.

    Tilden was a force in all years of the 1930s. F.i. in 1934 he defeated von Cramm on clay clearly at Berlin. It is reported that Nüsslein had the edge against Tilden.

    I also rank Nüsslein among the top three for 1933 to 1936 plus 1938.

    In 1935 he beat America's NO.1, Allison in an official pro/am match.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Federic, Yes it was a shame that German Tennis Federation banned Nüsslein for lifetime and never was ready to revise that verdict...
     
  38. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Nusslein is one of the unfortunate cases in sports history of what if. He probably would be one of the great figures in tennis history (to my mind he is) if he was allowed to stay an amateur.
     
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, pc1, I can see hypothetical Roland Garros finals von Cramm vs. Nüsslein...
     
  40. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    I don't underrate Ramillon or Plaa, they were good players, but surely not big ones, they never won anything big (Frenc Pro 1931-32 were weak titles, we don't even know if they really happened :D ). Plaa won in Berlin 1932, which was a pretty good tournament but not a Major in my opinion (Tilden was past his prime, Nusslein was not in his prime yet, and obviously a lot of strong amateurs were missing).
    Talking about Nusslein, the 1933 World Pro can't be considered a Major in my opinion: another pretty good tournament, but Kozeluh and Tilden were 38 and 40 at the time (and Kozeluh was not a big champion in my opinion).
    In 1934 he had an amazing victory at US Pro against Vines, but we know that Vines was not unbeatable on clay.
    On other Pro Slams he won, he faced mainly old players, while Perry and Vines were on tours (moreover, in my opinion Cochet never shined as a Pro: he had some good moments, but surely nobody will remember him for his Pro career).

    From my point of view, Nusslein won only a proper Major, Southport 1939, but I can accept who says he won two Majors, for his 1934 win over Vines, which was surely a big achievement. That said, I really can't credit him more than two Majors.
    So if someone asks me about Nusslein, I will introduce him like this: "an underrated Pro player from the 30s, particularly strong on clay. He won several tournaments in his circuit, even if many of them had depleted fields (because at the time amateurs had another circuit, and the strongest Pros preferred touring). Anyway, with his not-so-rare victories over Tilden and Vines, he can clame a place between the most distinctive players of the 30s. His biggest victory was Southport 1939, an English tournament on clay, which was surely a Major in that season."

    I can say he was a sort of Muster of the 30s: enormously strong on clay, but only one Major ;D
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  41. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Federic, I must correct you: The 1931 and 1932 French pro were surely held. I keep the French papers of that time. I concede: Only French players participating. Ramillon was a world pro champ of the 1920s (depleted field).

    Kozeluh was a seven times world champion.

    Tilden was awesome in 1932 and about as strong as the best amateurs. For 1931 some posters here (not me) rank Big Bill even No.1.

    Nüsslein was very strong indoors, see his great match against Budge at WEmbley.

    Nüsslein's win over Vines in 1934 was not amazing (but still great) because he usually beat him on clay...

    Cochet was very strong in 1936. he never won a set against Nüsslein in all of their ten matches. Cochet won several amateur tournaments after WW2!
     
  42. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    So we really can't count them as Majors.

    Just four Pro Slam, all with depleted fields except US Pro 1932 (which was still not a Major in my opinion).


    He was surely strong, no doubts about it. :)


    Never said he was bad on indoor courts, I simply stated that he was one of the very best of the time on clay.


    Can't understand why it was not amazing...
    so, Nadal victories over Federer on clay are not amazing because he usually beat him there? :D


    Little amateur tournaments with depleted fields, I can't count them in any manner. His only important victory has a Pro was the 1936 French tournament, which missed Nusslein, Tilden and Vines. In my opinion is clear that he was not so strong during his Pro years.
     
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Roma locuta, causa finita. Or not?

    Why only four majors for Kozeluh? He also was seven times world champion in the 1920s (Deauville and Beaulieu).

    I agree that Cochet was weaker as a pro as an amateur till 1933. But he was still rather strong in the 1930s and even after the war (when he won tournaments against strong players).
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  44. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    How can you count his Bristol Cups as Majors? They had very weak fields...


    I disagree, my impression is that after he turned Pro he was strong just on occasion. He was 32 when he turned Pro and he had not Tilden's longevity.
     
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Federic, don't you value the 1972 and 1973 Wimbledon as majors because many pros were absent?
     
  46. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    The 1972 edition was surely a Major: many absent, but also many strong players. On the contrary, I don't count the 1973 edition as a Major: only one of the top-10 players, it was the weakest Slam of the Open Era (except some A.O. editions).
     
  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Federic, We are dancing on dangerous ice if we begin to divide majors in true majors and non-majors depending on how many top players participate.

    Wimbledon 1972 yes (with only 3 or 4 top players participating) and W.1973 no (with two top players participating)? That's too accidental.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  48. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It is ridiculously dangerous to just rank not on the field. We have discussed this in the past. Do we then decide on how strong the individual players are at this point? Of course not. Is the 1971 Tennis Champions Classic a double major because Laver won it by defeating Rosewall, Roche, Newcombe, Emerson, Okker, Ashe (a few times), Okker (a few times), Ralston and Roger Taylor? Laver did win 13 consecutive best of five matches without a loss against possibly the strongest field of all time. It was a prestigious event.

    Incidentally the 1973 Wimbledon had Ilie Nastase, Jan Kodes and Jimmy Connors, Metrevili, Roger Taylor and a young Borg. Nastase, Kodes and Taylor were originally seeded before the boycott. Connors would not have been but in retrospect he was probably deserving of one of the top few seeds, imo probably top five considering his record and strength.

    Admittedly majors at times can lose prestige like the Australian Open for a number of years. Clearly the Year End Masters and the WCT Championship was de facto majors at that time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  49. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    Only Nastase was in the top-10 at the time of W '73. Kodes was under the top-10 (#15 on the original tournament seeding).
    On the contrary, at W '72 we had Smith and Nastase (two best players that season), Kodes (seeded #8 at the US Open, so he was a top-10 at Wimbledon also), and Orantes (#10 at the US Open, he may have not been at Wimbledon, but was surely near).

    W' 72
    Smith #1 at the time of the tournament
    Nastase #4 at the time of the tournament, but #1 or 2 that season
    Kodes around #8 at the time of the tournament
    Orantes probably a top-10 at the time of the tournament (not sure, anyway)

    W' 73
    Nastase #1 at the time of the tournament
    Kodes #15 at the time of the tournament (#9 in the year-end chart)

    Moreover, W' 73 missed 80-85 of the top-100 players, while W '72 missed only WCT Players.
    It is not the same thing in my opinion.
    W 1972 was obviously depleted, but four top-10 and many top-100 is way better than just one top-10 and a few top-100.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2013
  50. FedericRoma83

    FedericRoma83 Rookie

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    I mean, with today's rankings, W '72 would look like this:
    #1 seed Djokovic
    #2 seed Federer
    #3 seed Tsonga
    #4 seed Gasquet

    ...and W '73 like this:
    #1 seed Djokovic
    #2 seed Raonic

    Which one is better? :D
     

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