Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Kramer was the guy who "discovered" Gimeno, when the other top players refused to sign with Kramer. Biased.
    Emmo had better results than Gimeno at the 1969 US Open and the 1970 Wimbledon, plus Emmo won over Gimeno decisively in their Wimbledon meeting in 1959.
     
  2. Dan Lobb

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    Superbly stated.
     
  3. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Some good observations, although Mozart himself learned a lot from Haydn and this was a positive influence, put some more muscle into Mozart (like the Prague and Jupiter symphonies).
     
  4. Dan Lobb

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    Gimeno's French win in 1972 was relatively weak, an easy path, only Smith and Metreveli giving any challenge. Smith lost in straight sets, clay not being his best surface. Metreveli was a good but not great player.
     
  5. Phoenix1983

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    I don't hate you, this is an internet forum and I disagree with your opinion, especially on Rosewall. That is all.

    And yet he won 12 amateur majors, including at least 2 at every venue. Very impressive, albeit that competition may not have been strong.

    I already said I give Gimeno credit for that one major victory but it's not enough to overcome Emerson's 12 amateur slams.

    Who disproved me? I've still not seen a valid reason for putting a man with a 0-5 Wimbledon finals record ahead of the likes of Federer and Laver. Frankly it's an insult to tennis that such a man could be ranked as GOAT. In the real world of course no-one thinks Rosewall is GOAT so at least people generally hold sensible opinions.

    It doesn't matter how good Laver and Rosewall were, if Gimeno was truly a great like you claim, he would have won at least a few pro slams. In reality he was just a nearly man.
     
  6. BobbyOne

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    Dan, Wimbledon 1970 is doubtful. A QF higher than a SF?. Emerson never reached a SF at an open major, Gimeno reached four of them.

    Gimeno was 6:1 in the first full year they met. Gimeno beat Emerson in straight sets in the 1960 Queen's Club tournament.

    Gimeno reached No.3, Emerson reached No.5...
     
  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Haydn once wrote to Mozart's father: "Your son is the greatest composer".
     
  8. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    If you do not believe that Haydn has any emotions or feeling in his music, then you are not listening deeply.

    Requiem or the 40th symphony or the Piano concertos 466 and 491--I have multiple recordings of all of these by Bohm, von Karajan, Geza Anda, Colin Davis, Marriner, etcetera. (I choose not to listen to them, unless I want to go into diabetic shock.)

    The best recordings of Mozart's symphonies are by Peter Maag. He manages to give Mozart some rhythmic drive, tension, and gravitas--not just more glossy schlagobers.

    P.S. You are wrong about Beethoven. (He admired Handel most of all.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  9. BobbyOne

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    Phoenix, Gimeno's French Open win does of course not overcome Emerson's 12 amateur titles but you should consider it as a hint that Gimeno was generally stronger than Emerson, as also the 6:1 hth of 1968 indicate.

    It does not matter how good Laver and Rosewall were???? A very stupid and illogic statement. Of course it's deciding HOW good L and R were. If they were practically "out of the world" they are virually not beatable even by very strong players. Remember that also Gonzalez and Hoad did not win against the two Aussies.

    Insulting are only you. I'm not sure that in the "real world" no-one is ranking Rosewall the GOAT. Is this forum not a part of the real world? At least here I'm not the only person who considers it that way.

    The real world, f. i. Tennis Channel ranks Emerson ahead of Rosewall and Gonzalez only at 22nd place. Is it that what you want???
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  10. BobbyOne

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    hoddjem, Yes I meant that Beethoven admired only Mozart out of the two.

    If you diminish the best Mozart works as too sweet or so it shows me you never heard them. They are composed in Minor and don't have any sweet or Rokoko touch. Please listen to them seriously. If you do so you will have tears in your eyes, at least in the Requiem, probably Mozart's greatest work.
     
  11. BobbyOne

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    Dan, I appreciated those performers but I just can't appreciate Haydn's ice-cold music, a music without any deeper emotions.....
     
  12. BobbyOne

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    Dan, It was just reverse: Haydn who wrote only second class symphonies before he learnt Mozart's masterpieces learnt a lot from them. Without Mozart even the latest Haydn oeuvres would have stayed totally dull.

    I only accept No.94 and some string quartetts plus Die Schöpfung (The Creation).
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
  13. kiki

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    Take off journeyman Bucholz and add Cooper and of course Olmedo
     
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Kramer,Newk,Emmo,Edberg,Mac,Sedgmam,Hoad,,Rosewall,Cochet and Trabert for singles&dubs
     
  15. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kiki,

    Since you mentioned Trabert, I was trying to find a relatively current equivalent in style and in relative strength to Trabert. Trabert was a terrific baseliner with an excellent return as well as a very good serve and volleyer. He was not the most agile however. I thought of a couple, one is Agassi for the return and groundies. Agassi wasn't exactly fast either. The second is Boris Becker. The problem I have with Becker is that Becker wasn't that good on clay, having never won a clay tournament. Becker had a better serve imo but Trabert's was pretty goo.

    My questions are this, how strong would you say Trabert was at his peak? I think he was excellent. Second, who do you think is a relatively close equivalent to Trabert in the last twenty to thirty years?
     
  16. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Too bad. Symphony no. 92 or no. 88 are more interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  17. urban

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    PC 1, those equivalents of different eras are quite fascinating. I would compare Becker to Hoad in some ways (i remember Maskell saying something like that, when Becker played a junior final with Edberg), Sampras to Gonzalez (big weapon serve), Edberg to Patty (both had fine backhand volleys), Korda or Leconte to Laver (fine lefty backhands), Pernfors reminded me of Rosewall (i know double hander). From what i have read, Trabert was a hard working pro, great on clay, a bit like Courier, although Traberts backhand was his strong side.
     
  18. Phoenix1983

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    Would it be true to say Rosewall, Connors and Agassi are equivalents from their respective eras?
     
  19. Dan Lobb

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    "Deeper emotions"? If you listen to Furtwangler or Karajan conduct Haydn, you will hear not only emotions, but a profound spirituality, something more significant than mere emotions. The greatest composers attempted to reveal spitiyual realities, this was true not just of Bach and Handel, but also Haydn (the Masses, Creation, the Seasons, Seven Last Words of Christ), Mozart (Requiem, Mass in C Minor, Zauberflote, other sacred works).
    Did you know that Mozart accepted a position as church composer just before his death?
    Beethoven wrote two great spiritual edifices, the Missa Solemnis and Ninth Symphony, as the culmination of his work.
     
  20. Dan Lobb

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    Mozart was not a symphonist primarily, unike Haydn, and Mozart's maturity as symphonist came in 1786 (the Prague), the same year that Haydn was already through composing the great Paris symphonies.
     
  21. Dan Lobb

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    Trabert had powerful groundstrokes, which were consistent enough to win four Roland Garros titles.
    Trabert was similar to Becker, although Becker could not play clay.
    Hoad was much faster and more agile than Becker, and had the ability to win on clay. A much greater range of weapons than Becker.
     
  22. BobbyOne

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    Dan, listen objectively to both and you will realize the difference between great music (Mozart) and well-composed music (Haydn).
     
  23. BobbyOne

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    Dan, I did not know it.

    I would like to add Schubert's last mass (in German words it's in Es-Dur).

    Of course we may not forget Bach's great Passions and his "High Mass".
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  24. pc1

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    Becker is the closest comp to Trabert I know of. Thanks to both of you for your replies.

    Urban I've often thought Korda and Leconte were similar to many ways to Laver. Laver of course was more consistent than either but all of them could hit streaks where they seemed unstoppable.

    I would agree with both of you that Hoad was similar to Becker but as Dan wrote, had many more weapons.
     
  25. BobbyOne

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    Phoenix,

    Yes, all of them were tops in backhand, return and they took the ball early.
     
  26. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Boy, have you got your history and chronology mixed up.

    Haydn started writing his emotional Sturm und Drang symphonies (nos. 43-48 ) around 1772. Mozart was 16 at the time, and his output had extended to K. 150s and 160s. Mozart's symphonies of this time went up through no. 22, K. 162--years away from and hardly as noteworthy as his much more mature 1786 Prague Symphony no. 38, K. 504.

    Haydn's rather advanced Paris Symphonies (nos. 82-87) were written 1786-87, when Mozart was finally reaching musical maturity with Koechel numbers in the late 480s-early 500s.

    Mozart very much admired and respected Haydn. Why else would he have dedicated his greatest String Quartets nos 14-19 to the elder master. (They are now universally referred to as Mozart's Haydn Quartets, from 1782-85.)
     
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  27. BobbyOne

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    Old fellow, I'm quite sure about the right chronology. Haydn composed his best worksonly AFTER Mozart's death.

    Haydn's middle age symphonies are much weaker than his last ones, influenced by Mozart's masterpieces.

    Mozart made a genial symphony as early as 1773, his fabulous Little g-Minor, much sooner than Haydn's relative great ones.

    Mozart and Haydn respected each other. Mozart's Haydn-Quartetts outclass Haydn's quartetts.

    Beethoven dedicated works to Haydn but he did not admire Haydn. A dedication does not mean too much.

    I guess we should return now to returns, services and similary items.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  28. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Wrong again, ole bean.

    Mozart died 5 December 1791. Haydn went to London in January of 1791, whereupon he started writing the first of his culminating London Symphonies (nos. 93-104). The earliest of which (numbered incorrectly as no. 96) premiered in London in March 1791.

    Mozart's Symphony no. 25 in G minor, K. 183 is fairly pleasant and genial, but if you want to hear "feelings" and emotions from an early Classical period work try Haydn's symphonies no. 43 Mercury or no. 44 Trauersymphonie written in 1772 one year before Mozart's "genial" symphony no. 25.

    The facts deny many of your statements, and the chronology contradicts many of your unfounded assertions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2013
  29. forzamilan90

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  30. Phoenix1983

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    I didn't realise this thread was ranking the top ten composers of all time :)
     
  31. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Why not? The thread did say top 10, it didn't specifically say tennis. :)
     
  32. kiki

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    I thought about Boris, too.But Kodes is the answer.Good serve and volley, steady and deep groundies, Kodes was a bit less percutant but had better footwork.

    Both great on natural surfaces, grass and clay but not as strong indoors.

    Kodes is the better choice.
     
  33. kiki

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    John Mc Enroe was compared to Laver.But I think they were not the same breed.
     
  34. kiki

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    Lets bring in some 70´s R&R ?
     
  35. pc1

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    Agreed. Some similarities in that both are lefty serve and volleyers but really different styles of play.
     
  36. pc1

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    Thanks Kiki.
     
  37. kiki

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    Who´d be the modern Frank Sedgman? maybe John Newcombe? both had tremendous FH volleys and great net coverage.
     
  38. BobbyOne

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    hoodjem, You should write about tennis history. It's better for your reputation.

    Okay, I concede that Haydn did not write ALL of his late works after Mozart's death. But VIRTUALLY ALL of them. And ALL of them were OF COURSE heavily influenced by Mozart's masterpieces.

    Imagine Haydn would have died in, say, 1780 and therefore would not have known Mozart's great works. How poor would his oeuvre be...

    Most of all: I have heard hundreds of Haydn's works but I was never thrilled by any of them, did not get tears or a shower on my neck or back.

    Hear Mozart 488, second movement: There you would learn what emotion and greatness is. But it seems senseless to ask you because you called Mozart's
    sadest works (including even the Requiem!!!) sweet or similary.....
     
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  39. BobbyOne

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    hoodjem, I forgot to write hat you are casual: First you write Mozart 25 is genial and second you write it's "genial". You just want to blame me and troll me. But you use only nasty words. You have NOT disproved my chronology with that little exception regarding 1791 which does not contradict my thesis that old Haydn was influenced by top Mozart. So be fair!
     
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  40. forzamilan90

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  41. pc1

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    Sedgman was quicker than Newcombe. Sedgman had a superior volley which some think is the best of all time. Newcombe had the superior forehand and serve.

    I think the closest to Sedgman would be Edberg. Serves around the same level, both have been called the greatest volleyers ever. Both are great movers. Difference is that Edberg had a great backhand and Sedgman only a good one. I think Sedgman had the superior forehand.
     
  42. kiki

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  43. kiki

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    Maybe, thanks
     
  44. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Incidentally just because many think Sedgman was the greatest volleyer doesn't mean Newcombe wasn't a super volleyer. I think he was.
     
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Since I think you are keen on both, Newk and Orantes...did they ever meet other than DC?
     
  46. forzamilan90

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    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  47. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Where have you been?

    3. Mozart
    . . .
    9. Haydn
     
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  48. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    If quoting is trolling, then I am guilty.

    I submit that to quote is not to blame, but simply to assign responsibility or authorship where it is proper.

    If quoting your saying of "genial" is nasty, then I don't understand the meaning of nasty. One must take responsibility for one's words.

    Am I "casual" or "nasty"? The difference is huge, in my opinion.
     
  49. Dan Lobb

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    Most great composers influence each other, just as great tennis players learn from each other.
    Mozart certainly learned much from Haydn, just as Hoad learned much from Kramer.
    Mozart was profoundly influenced by Bach beginning in 1781 or thereabout, as evidenced by his own compositions, and borrowed a theme from Handel's Messiah (which Mozart orchestrated) for his Requiem.
    Nothing wrong with this.
     
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, Let's stop our discussion about music. A last statement: I critisized that you once wrote GENIAL symphony and once "GENIAL" symphony, the second version probably to belittle Mozart 25.
     

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