Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    There is a shift here.

    The topic was comparing Nadal with Borg, and I pointed out that Borg's Wimbledon record was superior to Nadal.
    Then someone jumped to Rosewall, forgetting the Nadal/Borg comparison.

    Two different topics.

    On clay, I would not rank Nadal above Rosewall, Trabert, or Hoad, or possibly Lendl.
    All of these players were overwhelming on clay, and the first three competed against each other to divide up the RG titles of the era.

    Nadal has had little serious competition on clay. Federer is not a natural clay player.
     
  2. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    If Federer is not a natural clay courter, and for this reason is little serious competition on clay, must we conclude that Rosewall, Trabert, Hoad and Lendl are natural clay courters, and therefor not natural grass or HC courters, and therefor are little serious competition on these surfaces?
     
  3. Dan Lobb

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    There was great depth in clay court play in the 1950's, and also the 1970's and 1980's.

    The ability to play clay has diminished since then among the top players, and only Fed and Ferrer have consistently challenged the big clay titles against Nadal.

    Sampras didn't even bother to learn to play on clay, unlike, for example, Gonzales or Budge, who both won important clay events.

    Rosewall, Trabert, and Hoad were great on all surfaces.
     
  4. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    BS. nadal's level on clay is well and above that of anyone not named Bjorn Borg. His achievements surpass that of any one else. Trabert, Hoad , Lendl don't even come within a country mile.

    I hope for your sake you meant fed and djokovic

    so is federer FFS. He's not a natural CCer ? yet, rosewall, trabert, hoad were natural on every surface ? LOL !
     
  5. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    My feeling is that Nadal will be tier one when he finishes his career. I would just like to see more depth in his diversity (only 1 indoor masters 1000). Borg was fantastic on fast indoor carpet and very slow clay. I have to say that Nadal is the toughest player mentally that I have ever seen.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  6. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the clay achievements of Hoad, Trabert, or Rosewall, who played many important clay events as pros.

    Nadal has dominated a relatively weak era for clay, and Nadal still has not learned to be comfortable on grass.
     
  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I agree that Hoad, Trabert and Rosewall, along with Gonzalez, Sedgman, Segura and Laver, were great on every surface.
     
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It is easy to be menthally tough against menthal midgets...
     
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    What is Segura doing with all those venerable surnames you pushed inside?
     
  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Segura is an all-time great, being No.2 for 4 years, No. 3 for 2 years, altogether 19 times (!!!) among the top ten. In comparison, Laver was "only" 15 years a top ten player.
     
  11. Dan Lobb

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    Djokovic has reached only one Roland Garros final, losing it.

    What is your point?
     
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    he is in between journeymen and champions.Just like Nusslein,Okker,Mecir and all those non major winners but still great players.
     
  13. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Segura won three pro majors in a row: US Pro 1950 to 1952, then arguably the foremost pro event. He did it on three different surfaces!
     
  14. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    my point ?

    my point is that Djokovic , not Ferrer has been amongst nadal's 2 top challengers on clay.

    djokovic also lost 2 semis to nadal @ RG where he'd have a decent shot of winning the whole thing, also lost to federer in 11 where he'd have been the favorite in the final if he had got through the semi.

    my point is that its outright hypocrisy ( actually cluelessness ) to say rosewall, trabert, hoad were very good ( & natural ) on every surface and in the same tone say federer is not a natural CCer .
     
  15. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    no, perhaps, you are not aware that trabert, hoad aren't even near a country mile of nadal's achievements on clay. only rosewall comes close.

    and yeah, consecutive wimbledon finals from 2006-08 and 10-11 including winning in 08,10 really show nadal is not comfortable on grass. :roll:
     
  16. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    It is certainly clueless to suggest that Fed could hope to survive on clay against the best clay-courters of the fifties Rosewall, Trabert, Hoad. Fed might be compared to Kramer or Gonzales or Sedgman on clay (all were very good on clay), but even Segura, Patty, or Drobny would probably prevail on clay against the Fed.

    Fed has not played nearly enough clay tennis to develop the clay game of the fifties squad, all of whom spent much time learning to play on clay, especially the Aussies.
     
  17. Dan Lobb

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    U.S. Pro was not a major in 1952, despite a great final.
     
  18. Dan Lobb

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    Nadal could play on grass, but so could Santana and Gimeno.
    All three would not make the cut for the top Wimbledon players.

    Rosewall, Hoad, and Trabert all won at RG, and beat each other at RG in the fifties.
    Rosewall was defeated in 1954 at RG by Davidson, who lost a ton of clay finals, including Roland Garros, to Hoad, who owned him on clay.
    Hoad had a lifetime edge on clay against Rosewall (from 1952 to 1960, Hoad led Rosewall on clay 15 to 7) and Trabert.

    Trabert won four Roland Garros titles in the fifties, beating Rosewall in 1959, but lost to Hoad at RG in 1958 and 1960.

    Each one of these could beat the others, but Nadal has had no serious opposition in a weaker clay era.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  19. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    oh boy ! you do realize federer actually grew up playing on clay ?

    and federer is much better than kramer/gonzales/sedgeman on clay.

    and he'd be pretty competitive vs rosewall/trabert/hoad or any other CCer in history.
     
  20. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    nadal is well and above santana and gimeno on grass . two wimbledons and 3 more finals.He defeated arguably the finest grass court player of all time at wimbledon ( having pushed him to 5 sets the year before ).

    see previous post. And finally, I, like most others here, do not trust your so called h2h stats or any sort of stats pertaining to hoad
     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Santana also won the US championships on grass.

    Gimeno reached the 69 AO final and th 1970 Wimbledon semis.

    But since grass of the past and current have nothing to see, it is altogether another sport and no possible comparative, ever since 2000...
     
  22. Dan Lobb

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    Santana had a strong grass record, winning both Wimbledon and U.S. titles on grass, and beating two reigning Wimbledon champs on grass in Davis Cup finals (Emerson and Newcombe).
    Santana gave Laver his toughest match at Wimbledon in 1962.

    Nadal's Wimbledon win over Fed in 2008 was a strange match, decided by darkness.
    I think Fed wins in daylight.

    Have you bothered to check out the hth stats I have given? No?

    I guessed you hadn't from your tone of voice.

    Having done the homework (unlike yourself) I can assure you that Hoad had a 15 to 7 edge on Rosewall on clay between 1952 and 1960.
    Hoad also had the edge on clay against Trabert.

    Not bad.
     
  23. Nadal_Power

    Nadal_Power Semi-Pro

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    I thought Fed had some 4 hours to win in daylight :confused:
     
  24. Dan Lobb

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    It turned dark suddenly in the fifth set, and in the last few games, Fed had trouble seeing anything.
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Would he be competitive agianst Jan Kodes of 71? Nastase of 73? Borg 1979? Wilander 1985? I mean, on clay.
     
  26. BTURNER

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    Caveat 1 haven't read this thread thoroughly
    Caveat 2 Rosewall is not in my area of knowledge.

    How far was Rosewall from his best and most mature as a clay player/ Wasn't he still fairly immature comparatively in 1960?
     
  27. Dan Lobb

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    No, Rosewall was Roland Garros champion in 1953, and also won at Roland Garros in 1958 and 1960 in the pros. He lost at Roland Garros to Davidson in 1954, and to Trabert and Hoad (3rd place) in 1959.

    Rosewall reached full maturity as a player sometime in 1957.

    His record at Roland Garros would have been better if he had competed there in 1955 (skipped due to Davis Cup preparation), and 1956 (spent in Australia working with Sedgman on his serve to prepare for Wimbledon).

    There was no Roland Garros Pro in 1957, but the biggest clay event that year was in The Hague, where Rosewall lost a marathon five-set final to Hoad.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Not at all.By 1957 or 1958, Ken had already peaked.He would keep his prime till 64 or 65, then slow down a bit, but was an absolutely top player till 71 or 72.he didn´t play that much on clay in his last yrs, obviously he spared himself the long gruelling rallies involved in a major clay court championship.

    BTW, most people never mention pre peak rosewall; he was a world super star by 1953, aged 19.He and Lew Hoad were considered the wonderboys of tennis.

    Rosewall at 18, was probably as good if not better than Borg or Wilander at that age.he was THAT good.
     
  29. BTURNER

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    Duly corrected,guys. Its not every day for a player getting into major finals in 74, to be discussed as prime material 14 years before on a surface that demands so much. That's Rosewall, though, I guess. Longevity gets redefined at my posting peril
     
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Rosewall had a very very smooth game, he had great stamina too.He could keep up there and his game wouldn´t take him much away.he also had a great will and determination.Sometimes, when watching him, I just started laughing at the guy.he was clobbering somebody really good and he looked like he felt miserable, bored or simply, an autist.

    Of course, when he shot that backhand, you would salivate...
     
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    BTURNER, Don't trust Dan. Rosewall was the best claycourter in 1958 and 1960 and arguably in 1957.
     
  32. Dan Lobb

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    Don't trust biased personal views.

    I think the numbers speak for themselves;

    15 to 7 on clay between 1952 and 1960, Hoad over Rosewall.

    The big clay match of 1957: The Hague final, marathon five sets, Hoad over Rosewall.
    Arguably the greatest clay match ever played.

    That tells the story.
     
  33. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Rosewall was autistic?
     
  34. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Artistic Australian?
     
  35. CaptainCool309

    CaptainCool309 Rookie

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    Sorry I'm so late to conversation guys, but I just joined TTW today. I figure it's better late than never.

    Here my personal Top Ten of All Time. These top ten are so Good, that you can make a case for any one of them the GOAT.

    1.Bobby Riggs-The Best Hustler the game has ever seen

    2.Pam Shriver-Her Deadly slice Forehand is nearly unstoppable

    3.Vitas Gerulaitis-NO ONE CAN BEAT VITAS GERULAITIS 17 TIMES IN A ROW!!!

    4.Mansour Bahrami-Rod Laver says he's the most naturally gifted player to ever pick up a racquet

    5.William Renshaw-7 Wimbledon Titles, King of the Victorian Tennis age

    6."Dr." Ivo Karlovic-DAT SLICE BACKHAND

    7.MaliVai Washington-He was so close to that 1996 Men's Wimbledon Final

    8.Tim Henman-He got a hill named after him

    9.Anna Kournikova-Her looks alone get her on the list

    10.Mark Philippoussis-Famous Reality T.V. Star, but don't overlook his powerful tennis game.
     
  36. CaptainCool309

    CaptainCool309 Rookie

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    Deleted Post 10Chars
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2014
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    hahaha good one

    Rosewall was known for being extremely mean and called pockets.But he was cool.
     
  38. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Yep. I know.:wink:

    Sometimes those kikiisms are downright funny.
     
  39. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    A very personal list.
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Gerulaitis was a great player regarding canada.

    he won the canadian Open in 1982 beating Ivan Lendl

    and he gave Margaret Trudeau the best wild ride of her life...
     
  41. DMP

    DMP Semi-Pro

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    I was taken by my parents to see Rosewall and Hoad pass through Calcutta airport on their way to Europe. They were the wunderkids of tennis and my parents, as tennis fans, made a point of going to see them. That would be 1952 or 53 (I'm not sure which). Justin Bieber eat your heart out!

    While not being screamed at, like Borg, they were big news. Tennis was big news in the 50s.
     
  42. feared69

    feared69 New User

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    1. Roger Federer
    2. Bjorn Borg
    3. Pete Sampras
    4. Rod Laver
    5. Rafael Nadal
    6. Ivan Lendl
    7. Novak Djokovic
    8. John McEnroe
    9. Boris Becker
    10. Jimmy Connors


    1. Serena Williams
    2. Steffi Graf
    3. Martina Navratilova
    4. Billie Jean King
    5. Margaret Court
    6. Monica Seles
    7. Justine Henin
    8. Martina Hingis
    9. Venus Williams
    10. Maria Sharapova
     
  43. 6-3 6-0

    6-3 6-0 Hall of Fame

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    1. RFederer
    .....
    2. RNadal
    .....
    .....
    .....
    .....
    3. BBorg
    4. JMDpotro
    5. ARoddick (Loved his service style)
    6. NDjokovic
    7. AAgassi
    .....
    .....
    8. JMcEnroe
    9. SEdberg
    10. BBecker
     
  44. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Yeah he had a cool swagger out there..more like Borg than say Connors, very understated. He seemed to have a look of "look I can beat you at anytime, and you won't even see it coming".. Mean? Man that's rough. I don't know that much about him off court. Regardless, if he was a pushover out there he'd never have reached the heights that he did. I'm sure he faced a lot of obstacles to success. No problem on the typo Kiki. Your "Kikisms" as Hoodjem termed them are entertaining. No problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  45. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nice post Borgnº1.I also enjoyed your comments on Borg-Panatta.while Borg was extremely confident on clay, i am sure he never thought he could lose, well, deep down I think the only player he really wasn´t that sure and feared the most was Panatta ( at least from 1975 or so).

    I didn´t mean " mean" in disrespect; i have lots of respect for Rosewall, whose backhand I had the privilege to watch live and is, probably, the one single nicest shot one can imagine.Rosewall was a man who never burnt a dolar, that was his fame on toru, it is a virtue in those times of crisis, isn´t it?¡¡¡

    keep on tunning Led Zep.Are there any other rock bands you like of those amazing times?
     
  46. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Thanks kiki. Ok, thrifty you mean? I see. Well, I think that many are deeply shaped by early tough times in childhood when it comes to money, so even later in life, their spending habits and views on the value of a dollar never change. He certainly earned his living with all that work done on Tour.
     
  47. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Truth.As I mentioned, the current situation will help us come back to some good saving habits, which is what you well said about Rosewall,Laver and those players who came from humble families to wor their way out.
     
  48. Dan Lobb

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    The recent Canadian Open featured a live interview with Robert Bedard, the last Canadian to win the championship (in 1957 and 1958, beating Krishnan and Whitney Reed).

    While previously he had rated Rosewall as his most difficult opponent, Bedard listed chronologically the three greatest players of their respective eras;

    pre-WWII: Tilden
    post-WWII: Hoad
    Recent: Sampras

    He does not believe that any direct comparison is possible between eras, given the differences in equipment.
     
  49. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    This adds to an impressive list of Hoad's opponents who rated him as GOAT;

    Gonzales
    Rosewall
    Laver
    Sedgman
    Ralston
    Buchholz
    Krishnan

    And now

    Bedard

    These were not armchair experts, but actual players.
     
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, as usual you "forget" that these player rank Hoad only as the "Half-GOAT". They are intelligent enough to know that Lew is not even a top ten player regarding achievements.
     

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