Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    No, Bobby, for YOU Hoad's achievements were not top ten.

    For these guys, Hoad's achievements were sufficient to be number one all-time, or as Bedard said simply, "Hoad was the greatest player."

    Simple enough.

    Bedard's list
    pre-WWII Tilden
    post-WWII Hoad
    recent Sampras

    Three different eras, three different players.

    Bedard played Hoad many times, especially in majors, and took a set off Hoad in the 1954 Wimbledon.
    It was at that Wimbledon that Fred Perry declared Bedard to be "the greatest natural athlete in the Wimbledon field".
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, you are an ignorant. If I would favour Rosewall as you favour Hoad, posters would kill me ;-)
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Me really thinks that Ken Rosewall was far more succesful with ladies than Hoad
    Maybe they broke their doubles team for that reason
     
  4. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, I give great weight to the opinions of the players themselves.

    I have not seen or heard any player nominate Rosewall as the greatest singles player of all time, although he received a co-mention from Ralston.

    For Hoad, the list of players putting him at the top is long, including Rosewall and Gonzales themselves.
     
  5. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, You seem to know much more about Rosewall than I know...Or you discredit Muscles just for fun...

    They broke their doubles team because Hoad declined earlier than Rosewall.
     
  6. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I give you 1000 Dollars for every expert who ranks Hoad as GOAT regarding achievements. No single player that you list up has ranked Hoad that way. AWAKE at last!!! Stop insulting these players as idiots!!!

    Rosewall is 100 times greater than Hoad: 23 majors vs. 4 majors!

    Marty Riessen has Rosewall called the finest player he has seen. The same said John Alexander.

    Bud Collins rates Rosewall as the arguable GOAT. He does NOT rank Hoad that way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  7. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    I comeback to this forum after a 2 months absence and you guys still haven`t decided who the GOAT is?? Shame on you. I am starting to believe that we would never reach a consensus around here
     
  8. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, they have all ranked Hoad number one because of achievements. (For example, Hoad had what I believe is the greatest year ever for a tennis player in 1959. BAR NONE).

    Without achievements, no one gets ranked as number one.

    I think you should show some respect for the judgments of Rosewall, Gonzales, Laver, Bedard, Buchholz and others who played against the guy and rate him number one.

    Did you ever bat the ball with Hoad? No?
    Neither did I, so I listen to those who did.

    Riessen and Alexander did not see Hoad in his prime, or play against him about 200 times in his prime, as Gonzales did.

    Collins? I am not sure what he attended in the late fifties. Perhaps he could enlighten us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2013
  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    ARFED, We cannot find a consensus. We only know that Hoad is not the GOAT...
     
  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You really believe they ranked Hoad No.1 because of achievements? How many glasses of wine do you drink every day?

    Even if Hoad would have had one year of dominating (he never had one) he still cannot be GOAT. No player with only four majors won can be regarded as GOAT.

    Collins did praise Hoad for his awesome playing level WHEN LEW WAS ON. Unfortunately Hoad was seldom on. Bud is an intelligent and reasonable man. Therefore he does not rank Lew as a GOAT candidate. AWAKE!
     
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    oh¡ that was a bad , lousy joke...since Rosewall was the humble muscless and Hoad the flamboyant Hollywood looks guy.
    Seems like Casanova was a journeyman compared to the great Lew...maybe he even beats Gerulaitis...
     
  12. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, no one gets a number one ranking unless their achievements impress someone enough to get the ranking.

    Ranking doesn't emerge from friendship or the imagination.

    Yes, Hoad dominated in 1959, not just dominated, but had the greatest year a tennis player ever had.

    Four majors?
    Not likely.

    Gonzales had only two majors, by this standard.
     
  13. statto

    statto Professional

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    Top ten of the open era, IMO:

    1. Federer (Career slam, 17 slams, multiple YECs)
    2. Laver (CYGS)
    3. Borg (Dominated two totally different surfaces, went out at the top)
    4. Nadal (Career slam, Olympic gold, multiple Davis Cups, Masters record)
    5. Sampras (Dominated two slams, 14 slams, this low because of clay performances)
    6. Agassi (Career slam, amazing comeback after being out of the game virtually)
    7. McEnroe (Amazing at both singles and doubles, phenomenal Davis Cup record, still has best win/loss record for single year)
    8. Connors (Incredible longevity, number of titles and career wins)
    9. Lendl (Absolutely maximised potential, changed the way players prepared)
    10. Djokovic (Very successful in spite of playing in the Federer/Nadal era)

    Potentially I can see Nadal rising to 1 or 2 on the list if he can grab a few more slams. Potentially I can see Djokovic rising to 4 or 5 on the list if he can get to double figures in slams and complete a career slam.
     
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Except for the tenth position, the list ( not the order IMO) seems pretty senseful.I´d take ( now) the serbian away and put Newcombe or Becker or Wilander or Edberg or Rosewall.Havent´decided which one.
     
  15. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    It's a good list and the order may be improved. But I do think Djokovic may very legitimally belong in it, ahead of the players you mention. The only one who might possibly be in contention is Wilander who has one more major, but elsewhere Djokovic has better numbers already: two years as the clear number 1 (which none of those guys had) and a season where he dominated the game in a way comparable to the best Federer or the best McEnroe seasons. And a load of Masters titles with all the top players present. Those are not trivial matters.
     
  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You make me tired with your wrong statements.

    No single expert ever has given Hoad a true No.1 ranking!

    Gonzalez dominated at least 5 years, Hoad dominated never, also not in 1959. At the most he was equal with Gonzalez that year. AWAKE!
     
  17. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Wilander won several DC as well as a bunch of Master Series
    Becker has more majors since the WCT Finals and ATP Finals had major status
     
  18. NikeWilson

    NikeWilson Semi-Pro

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    if we go by Slam count for the most part we come up with a reasonable list.

    1) Federer
    2) Sampras
    3) Nadal
    4) Laver
    5) Borg
    6) Agassi
    7) Lendl
    8 ) Connors
    9) McEnroe
    10) Djokovic
     
  19. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, I regard Rosewall, Gonzales, Laver, Buchholz, Stolle, Robert Bedard (who just last week rated Hoad as "the greatest player") as TRUE experts, unlike couch potatoes like you and me.

    I trust their judgment that Hoad was the greatest player ever.

    I have still not heard from you about Bud Collins.
    Did Collins see Hoad play in the late fifties, or not?

    Yes, Gonzales was number one for a longer period than Hoad, or others, but Hoad reached a higher level of play than Gonzales, which Gonzales rightfully acknowledged.
     
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, You again miss the point: Of course those players are experts. BUT: All of them DON'T rank Hoad as GOAT in achievements!! Turn on your brain!

    Yes, Collins did see Hoad in the 1950s. Thus he praised Lew's peak play but NOT his achievements. AWAKE!
     
  21. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Hoad's achievements aren't even top 10, and that's being kind. His higher level of play was irrelevent considering it didn't manifest itself into major titles. Atleast not compared to the real top tier greats.
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, I'm glad we agree here. I have Hoad at No. 14 or 15.

    The frequent praise of Lew's fantastic playing strength mostly refers just to the level in one match or a few matches, not to a year's or career's level.
     
  23. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    Major status? My recollection is different. I watched a lot of tennis in the 80s, and by the mid part of that decade (or even earlier) I had it well ingrained in my mind that there were 4 tournaments on a category of their own, above everything else. This notion came to me almost entirely from watching tennis on television. That’s what they kept saying. Once in a while you’d hear suggestions that Key Biscane was the “5th slam” but even that wasn’t really presented as on a par with the others, but rather as kind of in-between category between the majors and the rest.

    If you are going to give YEC and WCT the status of majors, then you must add 2 majors to Djokovic’s record. And of course guys like McEnroe and Lendl would have about 15 majors each, and Federer would have 23. We are moving into inflation galore, spurred by feverish nostalgia. Truth is I don’t recall Becker ever dominating the game in any way remotely similar to Djokovic in 2011 (or even 2012). Becker never ended a year as the clear number 1 player.

    As for a bunch of Masters tournaments won by Wilander, well, he won 8 Grand Prix titles (5 of them in Cincinnati). However, it is well known that none of those tournaments had mandatory appearance of all qualifying players, as they have now, and therefore the draws were usually not as tough. In any case, those 8 titles pale in comparison with Djokovic's 14 Masters series wins against the strongest fields available (and in the greatest variety of venues). Wilander did have a very good year in 1988, but again not nearly as good as Djokovic’s best. And right after that, he started sinking fast in the rankings, never to rise again.

    So the more I think of it, the more it seems to me that Djokovic already belongs in a top 10 open era list.
     
  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    To each era its own.WCT/Masters in the 70´s and 80´s were very big, just like the Australian and WTF are today.Of course, the big three that have kept their status like Wimbledon,Roland Garros and Flushing Meadows are the main tourneys.

    No problem adding those WTF won by current era players.That is fair.

    But we should always pownder what a major is in any different era.In tennis, the concept of majors has changed so much that change rather than permanency is the keyword.
     
  25. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, playing the highest level of tennis ever attained IS an unparalleled achievement.
    For some reason, you do not credit this as an achievement, for reasons which are beyond my understanding.

    When Gonzales, Rosewall, Laver, Buchholz, Krishnan, and Bedard rank Hoad as "the greatest player", they did not qualify this ranking by longevity or the simple number of titles won.
    They were considering the level of tennis, plus, in Hoad's case, the ability to raise his game in important events.
    This is where Hoad rises above Vines or Lendl, or others who came up short in major events.
    As much as I admire Rosewall's career, there is some disappointment in terms of the very top events, especially Davis Cup, Wimbledon, the Forest Hills Pro (although Rosewall played well there in 1963 and 1970, just before and just after Laver's peak).

    My recollection of Riessen's assessment of Rosewall was that Rosewall was number one overall in 1972, but that Laver could play at a higher level.
     
  26. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    No, Hoad won the biggest events, Davis Cup (1953, 1955, 1956), Wimbledon (1956, 1957), Forest Hills Pro (1959), and the top Aussie pro event at Kooyong in 1958 and 1960, the Kramer Cup (1961, 1962).

    In these events, he outperformed Gonzales, Rosewall, Sedgman, Trabert, Segura and other greats.
     
  27. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    No, it refers to major events over a span of 11 seasons.
    A running series against Gonzales of almost 200 matches over 2 years? That's more than a few.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I stop now my answering your wrong opinions. You will never learn what achievements mean. Stay happy with your "one day" idol...
     
  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think " best ever" would be more convenient than " greatest ever" when we discuss Lew Hoad.
     
  30. statto

    statto Professional

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    Djokovic should not be in the top ten if we are looking at purely slam counts. Wilander had seven slams. Edberg had six, plus three doubles slams.
     
  31. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Stolle described Hoad as "the greatest MATCH player", which makes sense thinking about Davis Cup, Wimbledon and Forest Hills Pro finals, where Hoad was at his best.
     
  32. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    "One day"?

    Perhaps we can agree here.

    One day.....as in:

    The 1953 and 1955 Davis Cup final matches against Trabert, which drew the first mass audiences to tennis.

    The 1956 and 1957 Wimbledon finals, overwhelming "days" for Hoad against Rosewall and Cooper.

    The 1958 and 1959 Forest Hills Pro marquee showdowns against Gonzales.

    The 1958 and 1960 Kooyong tournament deciders against Gonzales and Rosewall, and the 1958 second Kooyong tour match against Gonzales, deemed the greatest match ever played by the two players.

    The 1957 clay final at The Hague against Rosewall, probably the greatest clay match ever played.

    The 1961 and 1962 Kramer Cup final matches against Trabert and Olmedo, perhaps the last awesome display of Hoad's peak form.

    Yes, these were good "one days", I agree.
     
  33. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    Dan Lobb, just curious where do you rank Nadal and Agassi overall. Browsing through your posts I am guessing you have Nadal ranked about 40th all time (but consider him about 100th on all non clay surfaces, only having him that high since you probably have him about 5th on clay), and Agassi about 80th all time. Is that about right?
     
  34. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Most reasonable list I can go with.

    1. Laver
    2. Pancho
    3. Rosewall
    4. Tilden
    5. Federer
    6. Sampras
    7. Nadal
    8. Borg
    9. Budge
    10. Connors
     
  35. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    Mine would be:

    1. Laver
    2. Federer
    3. Nadal
    4. Gonzales
    5. Rosewall
    6. Sampras
    7. Borg
    8. Tilden
    9. Connors
    10. Lendl
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  36. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Good list but Rosewall at 7? 20 years in and around the top and 23/24 slams?
     
  37. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    I probably have him a bit low. I guess my issue with him is he given the era he was in his 2 or 3 years at the Worlds best seem so low in comparision to Gonzales and Laver who each were for about 8. It was between the two which almost makes it look like a transition time when he was the best a bit, when Gonzales was really old and Laver amateur/raw to the pros. Some try and say that about Nadal but that clearly isnt the case as he overtook Federer as best before Federer's time on top had completely ended (Nadal being best in the World in 2008/early 2009, and Federer the rest of 2009), between Federer and Djokovic (totally dominating 2010), after Djokovic had seemingly taken over (this year). Although Nadal's problem is mantaining dominance or even being the true #1 for more than a 15-18 month span tops largely due to health issues.

    Also I guess Rosewall not winning the official Wimbledon title, even if he won it often in pros, influenced my rank of him.

    Anyway I bumped him up on my list upon further consideration.
     
  38. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Good question.
    The surface makes a huge difference, and the format.

    On red clay, in a super-tournament seedings,

    1) Nadal
    2) Borg
    3) Rosewall
    4) Trabert
    5) Cochet
    6) Lacoste
    7) Hoad
    8) von Cramm
    9) Lendl
    10) Drobny


    On grass, in a super-tournament seedings,

    1) Kramer
    2) Gonzales
    3) Laver
    4) Hoad
    5) Federer
    6) Sampras
    7) Budge
    8) Rosewall (not at Wimbledon, due to allergies)
    9) Sedgman
    10) Vines
    11) Borg
    12) McEnroe

    In the final four at red clay super-tournament, I pick ,

    Nadal vs. Lendl
    Rosewall vs. Borg

    The final,

    Nadal df. Borg in five long sets

    On grass, the final four would be,

    Laver vs. Hoad
    Gonzales vs. Budge

    The final

    Hoad df. Gonzales in four sets, like the 1958 second match at Kooyong, the greatest grass match ever,

    4-6, 9-7, 11-9, 18-16.

    This would be the most reasonable outcome of the super-tournaments, given the records of these players.
     
  39. illusions30

    illusions30 Banned

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    Thanks for your response. So in an overall all time greatest list where would you put Nadal and Agassi. I do know from your previous posts you wouldnt have them top 30.
     
  40. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    illusions30, Laver was No.1 at the most 7 times, sometimes tied with others.

    Rosewall was No.1 (partly tied with others) 5 to 9 times.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2013
  41. Graf1stClass

    Graf1stClass Semi-Pro

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    1. Steffi
    2. Kournikova
    3. Nishikori
    4. Sampras
    5. Blake
    6. Federer
    7. Roddick
    8. Nadal
    9. Chang/Agassi
    10. Lisicki
     
  42. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Very nice list.

    Another great selection.
     
  43. chjtennis

    chjtennis Legend

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    1 Federer
    2 Sampras
    3 Laver
    4 Nadal
    5 Borg
    6 Ken Rosewall
    7 Don Budge
    8 Pancho Gonzales
    9 John Mcenroe
    10 Jimmy Connors
     
  44. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    I could see Nadal at #1 all-time on clay, but not even top 12 on grass.

    There are too many great grass specialists in history, like Sedgman, Sampras, and even Becker might knock off Nadal on grass.
     
  45. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Bobby, what dates are you looking at for Rosewall at #1?
     
  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, 1959 (together with Gonzalez and Hoad): Rosewall had the best overall record (but failed at the majors). He was 8:4 against Gonzalez.
    1960 (together with Gonzalez): He won the two biggest tournaments.
    1961 (together wirg Gonzalez): He won the two biggest tournaments (Pancho participating)
    1962, 1963.
    1964 (together with Laver): Rosewall won the big world series.
    1965 (together with Laver): Rosewall won two majors, beating clearly Laver. Muscles was best grass court player and claycourt player (winning Reston over Laver).
    1970: (together with Laver and Newcombe): Rosewall edged out Newcombe; Laver failed at the majors.
    1971 (together with Smith and Newcombe): Rosewall won AO and WCT Finals, the No.s 3 and 4 and reached Wimbledon SFs.

    Rosewall's weakest chances to be ranked NO.1 was 1959 though.
     
  47. YaoPau

    YaoPau Rookie

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    Question: how do you determine that Sedgman was so great on grass? I'm not contesting it, just curious.
     
  48. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Good list, but I would have Lendl in the top 10 instead of Budge or Connors. Tilden deserve to be in the top 10 as well but I have no idea where to place him, I find it very hard to compare his achievements with others. Why 4th and not 2sd or 8th?
     
  49. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Sedgman was inconsistent, but had a special overdrive gear and could lift his game to great heights in major events, especially on grass.
    Apparently, he would jump on every ball and rush the net, and the match would end quickly.

    He beat very tough opposition on grass,

    1951 Forest Hills: Trabert, a close five-setter
    1952 Wimbledon: Drobny, decisive
    1952 Forest Hills: Seixas, decisive
    1958 Sydney: Gonzales, Trabert, tough matches
    1959 Kooyong: Gonzales in final, 6-4, 9-7, 6-4

    Seixas rated Sedgman as the greatest of all time when he was pumped up.
     
  50. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I really think that 1959 was a great year for Rosewall, winning two important tournaments in Brisbane, one in January, the other in December, beating Gonzales in both events, also Trabert and Hoad.
    Rosewall made a strong showing at Forest Hills, giving a great match to Hoad and winning third place over Trabert.
    Rosewall was third on the points list, and I would rank him third that year.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013

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