When your partner has the better view but you see it as "in"

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Cindysphinx, Jul 31, 2008.

  1. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    Why would Becky have to lie? If she didn't see where it landed she might make a signal for good. So if you think the ball is out and one of your opponents is 100% certain it is out and the other opponent made the signal for good and admitted it was only because they didn't see where it hit, you still think they should concede the point?

    Anyways, I don't think this situation is documented well in the rules and is open for interpretation.
     
  2. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    OK, Blake. I mean, I meant to explain that in the scenario you provided, it is unlikely that I would call the ball in or out. I would say nothing, 'cause if I'm not sure and my partner is better positioned, I would defer to her call.

    The operative words there being "I'm not sure."

    Anyway, as you say, it is quite possible that one partner can be absolutely sure the ball was in, while the other partner can be 100% certain it was out. (Especially so at the higher levels when the ball is traveling much faster).

    It sounds like your position (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that in that situation, it is best to defer to the closer player and have the ball called out.

    Me, I think it is best to defer to whoever is seeing the ball absolutely, clearly, undoubtedly in, regardless of court position. That whole "benefit of the doubt" idea, doncha know.

    If either partner is uncertain, that partner shouldn't be calling anything and should instead turn and ask their partner (who hopefully already signaled in or out, so as to avoid The Dreaded Huddle). If neither saw it clearly out, it was good.
     
  3. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Raiden, I may be unusual, but I don't make a hand signal for out unless I am sure it was out, and I don't make a hand signal for in unless I am sure it was in. If I make a signal or shout a call, it is because i am making a call, not because i don't know what happened. I've honestly never heard of such a thing.

    If I saw the ball as clearly out, I am obligated under the Code to call it out myself regardless of what my opponents do.

    But say I didn't get a good look. Now it is up to my two opponents. If one made the signal for good and explained she did this because she didn't see where the ball landed . . . how weird! I'd have to ask her to explain herself, because doubles partners who don't see the ball land usually don't make a call and ask their partners.

    Are you talking about a situation where the ball hits and there's a short delay but no call from one player, so the other player signals good because she didn't see her partner wave a finger in the air or they had some other miscommunication?

    I'm talking about a real "good" signal: The immediate "safe" signal from baseball or the immediate palm downward.

    I'm just confused by your question, maybe . . .
     
  4. tbini87

    tbini87 Hall of Fame

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    i do that sometimes too depending on the game! if those i am playing with don't call the score, or can be forgetful, or try to get free points here and there i don't mind keeping the correct score for everyone. announcing the score every point is a great idea imo. i wish the server always took care of it... but that certainly isn't the case.
     
  5. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    That makes me feel better. I know in baseball the shortstop and catcher are responsible for informing the others on how many outs there are. Sure, there might be a scoreboard, but it's important for everyone to know when there are two outs. Here are situations in which people often get the score wrong: the serving team jumps ahead 30-love, then drops 3 points in a row. If they haven't been announcing the score, they will often say 40-30. When I correct them, they look at me weird, so I'll say, "That's right, you just dropped 3 in a row." That usually convinces them. The other is if they get ahead 3-0 in games. If they proceed to drop the next 4 in a row. After the change, they'll say, "Let's see, 4-3" If losing track of points is bad, what about losing track of entire games?
     
  6. alecspade

    alecspade New User

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    Not reading the responses, but its the person who has the better line of sight to make the call. You are making a call from across the court which you should pretty much NEVER do unless you are calling it out and you see it clearly out (meaning you see the green between the ball and line). I pretty much never make IN calls from across the court and always defer to my partner.

    This happened on our mixed doubles team when the female called several shots out (which she had the better angle for) and her partner overruled her. She told me later that she felt it made her look like she was either cheating or incompetent in making calls and took her out of her game.
     
  7. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    I guess the issue we are debating is how to interpret the 'good' signal. I treat a good signal different than an 'out' signal because you are required to call the ball out (unless it is completely obvious), wheras saying nothing is equivalent to making a good call. Plus you call a ball out when you are 100% certain, whereas any other level of certainty results in the ball being good. In singles if I do not see where the ball landed and I think it might be close, as a way to prevent confusion by my opponent I will signal a good call. In doubles I will do the same thing, but wait for my partner to make a possible out call first just to prevent any confusion between us. Some people might make the good call without realizing their partner made an out call and that of course can cause problems. I truly think that what is stated in the code does not address this specifically and thats why I disagree with you and a number of other posters and its all because of the difference between an 'out' call and a 'good' call.

    I agree 100% that if a partner questions his partner's out call, then the opponents should get the point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2008
  8. 10sguy

    10sguy Rookie

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    Steady Eddy, if you and I ever play (as partners or opponents), please don't call the score when I'm serving . . . UNLESS I (or my partner when he/she is serving) fail to call out the score before serving. To do so when others have not demonstrated an unacceptable level of carelessness about calling the score out can be irritating and, to some, can be perceived to border on OCD.
    NOTE: I say this respectfully (oh yes, it's "30 - all")
     
  9. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Raiden, you're right that singles and doubles are different on "good" calls. In singles, a prompt good call is perfectly appropriate just to say "I can't call it out, and I want to communicate with you because so there is no miscommunication about my call." I mean, it's very easy to miss an opponent's out call, especially if their back is to you.

    Doubles is different. There is no reason for the prompt good call in doubles unless you are affirmatively calling the ball good and plan to stand by your call. If you didn't see the ball clearly in, what are accomplishing by giving a good signal given that you have a partner to help you?

    I'd be interested to hear what those with experience as roving officials would do with a situation where a doubles player admits to having given a good signal when partner gave an out signal. Would they take that as evidence of disagreement, or would they allow the player who gave the good signal to take it back or explain it away? Or would they say that good signals are meaningless under the Code?

    Anyone?
     
  10. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    You mean like on your toss? No, I don't say the it during the toss. I say it after the point ends, in a conversational voice, to my partner. Ever have a guy say, "What's the score?", then say, "No, that's not it."? That's annoying. Then you have to reconstruct all the points to their satisfaction. Better to agree on the score before each point. Ever have a guy say after the set, "Lets see, if I only lost my serve once, and..." You've won the set, but now have to win it again by reconstructing every game from 0-0 to 6-3? And even if you can do this, they say, "Ok, I'll let you have it." If a player wants to zone out, fine. But then waive your right to argue the score.
     
  11. 10sguy

    10sguy Rookie

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    Steady one, I, of course, am not referring to you (or anyone) calling the score during my service TOSS. I'm talking about DURING my or my partner's serving game (between points) when we're supposed to be calling out the score prior to each service point. If we demonstrate a failure to call out the score prior to each service point then, sure, go ahead and ask, "score please?" All I'm suggesting is that you (or anyone) please refrain from acting as scorekeeper for everyone UNLESS the server who is SUPPOSED to call out the score has failed to carry out this responsibility.
     
  12. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    I usually announce the score as I'm collecting the balls and preparing to serve. IMHO announcing the score just as you're about to toss as most people do is too late.

    A couple of years ago, I was playing a 3.0 singles match. My far more experienced opponent started off the match with a little lecture. She said something like, "Let's make sure we call the lines nice and loud so there's no confusion, and let's give each other the benefit of the doubt on line calls and stuff like that. I think it's a good idea to announce the score loudly well before you step up to serve; that way we won't forget what the score is."

    I thought it a little presumptuous and weird to lecture an opponent about the Code before you have any idea whether there is a problem. Then again, I had to admit that her suggestion to say the score well before you step up to serve is a very good one. I've been doing it ever since, and it is unusual for someone to interrupt my service motion with "What's the score?"

    Cindy -- who considers it a point of pride to get through her service games without a scoring dispute
     
  13. alecspade

    alecspade New User

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    I can't stand people that don't call out the score, and we have several habitual non-callers on our team. I call the score before I start bouncing the ball before my serve (when I see that both opponents are ready and paying attention).

    Also the people who call the score out on MY serve make me want to strangle a kitten, especially the ones that do it IMMEDIATELY after the point is over. *I* know the score, *I* will call the score out, STFU.
     
  14. LawnChairGeneral

    LawnChairGeneral Rookie

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    ^^^i agree. the problem with announcing the score after the point is that the opponents could be talking, be wondering why they put up a lame duck for me to smash, just not listening, etc. heck, even my partner forgets the score.

    the score should be announced before you begin your service routine. it is the best time because everyone on the court is paying attention.
     
  15. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    That's what I think. They say the score, and immediately hit the serve. There's no time to question if you don't agree with their score.

    Uh oh, then I'm the type that is aggravating you. I don't want to be a source of aggravation to anyone. So could you help me out here? Lots of servers don't say the score, then it turns out they don't even correctly keep track of the score. I always do. I'm trying to head off arguments. They might have gotten the score wrong 3 points ago. Who can tell? They're not saying it. So then we do one of those awful reconstructions, "He went DTL but it was called 'long', then he..." What do you think is the best method. I'm open. If your way seems better I'll accept it.
     
  16. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    How do THEY know you know the score? Why would anyone get mad about the non-serving side calling out the score? As long as the score is correct, great!


     
  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    You know who the worst offenders are about not calling the score?

    Higher-level players.

    The higher the skill level, the less likely they are to announce the score. Like it's cool not to or something. Or announcing the score is for noobs.

    Ooooh, those are fighting words, huh? :)

    The worst offender is my teaching pro, who rarely announces the score when we play doubles at the end of a clinic. And then he forgets the score!!
     
  18. alecspade

    alecspade New User

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    1. Because I call it out loud before every serve
    2. They usually only do it after THEY win the point

    Basically they are saying "you're too stupid/ignorant to call the score so we better do it for you".
     
  19. alecspade

    alecspade New User

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    This isn't really what I mean. If your opponents aren't calling the score then calling it yourself is OK. Personally I say the score out loud before every point starts (on my serve).
     
  20. LawnChairGeneral

    LawnChairGeneral Rookie

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    good observation cindy. whenever i play a 4.5 or 5.0 they rarely announce the score. when watching 5.5+ in a tournament... they never call it. is the score taboo at this level? or do they think that they are so good that everyone on the court should know it? but you know what, disputes happen at higher levels too... although i admit they are rare.

    alecspade is right... just let the server call it. you can jump in IF he/she proves incompetent. or help your partner out... when my partner uses his soft voice, i repeat the score at the net so everyone can hear.

    to all you soft-spoken players out there, speak up! especially indoors... there is alot of noise in there.
     
  21. FedererISBetter

    FedererISBetter Rookie

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    Its tricky about line calls, because theres so many angles to look from and most looks in... but the person closer sees it out. If in doubt, ALWAYS ask for a ball mark if in doubt. I don't play much doubles, but I always trust my partner's tennis character and decision as my partner trust mine.

    And about calling the score, you HAVE to do it before your motion of service.. such as calling the score before bouncing the tennis ball. Calling the score is like a confirmation for both the server and the returner... so would you confirm the score when you are doing your service motion? lol... hopefully not... it could be a hinderance.

    Calling the score is a good habit to get into... its a very good way to keep track of the score and your play.Ie, I call the score to myself before my partner calls the score... just a way for me to stay focus and making sure nobody is being cheated. Sadly I only do this in official matches lol... darn me : (
     
  22. JHBKLYN

    JHBKLYN Rookie

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    I wouldn't mind either, it's like having an announcer calling out the game score and it's great if your partner isn't calling out the score because I don't have to do it now.
     
  23. JHBKLYN

    JHBKLYN Rookie

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    Mute people ...
     
  24. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Professional

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    I think "higher-level" players do not call score that often because knowing the score is ingrained in their decision making process (eg. it's not about a "noob" thing or a "cool" thing). Knowing the score is as automatic as not thinking about how to hit a forehand, when hitting a forehand. You might also find that higher-level players can recount how each point was won/lost in a game (more so anyway than say a 3.0 player). Lower level players are usually thinking about mechanics more than anything else, whereas higher level players are focusing more on strategy. During the course of match, good players are collecting information (much like a poker player) about favorite shots, goto shots, shots missed (by me or opponent), what's working, what's not, etc.... The score is just another piece of that information (eg. at 30-30 or 15-40, my opponents serving tendency may be very different than if the score was 40-lov). Winning Ugly (by Gilbert) gives a great description of the importance of certain points. Usually the only time I'll need to ask/confirm the score is after a long point...

    Actually you might even find repeating the score or constantly asking the score to be a form of gamesmanship (eg. to break the rhythm of someone who plays fast) at the higher levels.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2008
  25. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Im sorry but you are totally wrong about this, and it has a lot to do with the other thread.

    This whole section of the code is named "MAKING CALLS".

    And the very first sentence of this part of the code is "Out calls Corrected". (not "Out calls Correcting when returning serve")

    I think it's pretty clear that you are reading this wrong and adding your own conclusion to it which is not there.

    It's saying that IF the bad call is made on the 2nd server, the server is entitled to two serves.

    Think about it. Why would it be a do-over for just the 2nd serve, but not any other ball you happen to mistakenly call out?

    Maybe it's an easy mistake to make, you probably read it wrong and then you carryed on with that thought in mind, and maybe because you are the big important teaching pro you figure you absolutely must of been right about this.

    Just admit you were wrong, and we'll move on, nobody's perfect....
     
  26. rainman007

    rainman007 Rookie

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  27. moonbat

    moonbat Semi-Pro

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    I agree. If I'm in the ad court, I never call a ball on the deuce sideline if my partner is anywhere near it--same with the ad court when I'm in the deuce. If I'm the returner's partner, I only call the horizontal service line and sometimes the vertical on the serve if I can see it clearly, but I won't call a close out wide--that's the returner's call.
     
  28. moonbat

    moonbat Semi-Pro

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    Heh...I know the feeling. I play with women who only call the score when they're ahead, but always call for the score between points when I'm serving. I always call the score--if they could keep their traps shut for 10 seconds they would find out what it is. We do have one hag at the club who is sweet as pie to everyone but is not only a major hooker (in the calling-a-good-ball-out sense; I have no idea what she does on her off-court time) :twisted:, but she'll call the score wrong, too. So if I'm playing with someone like that, I'll call the score to my partner after every point on the hooker's serve so there are no surprises.
     
  29. moonbat

    moonbat Semi-Pro

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    Nope, you're good to go, girl! This is from the Q & A portion of the USTA website:

    Serving: I was playing a match with no-ad scoring. At a very important 3 all point, my opponent called my first serve out. After, he corrected the call and called the serve in. What should have been done in this situation? We played 2 and I ended up losing the point. Should the point have been mine because of the missed call by my opponent?

    KAUFMAN: If the receiver returns the ball in play, then replay the entire point. First serve. We want to encourage players to correct erroneous calls. (Note: If the return was a weak sitter, the receiver should concede the point.) If the receiver did not return the ball in play, it is the server’s point.

    During a point: When partners disagree on a call the benefit of doubt must go to the opponents. If an out call was made (not communication) then play has stopped.
    Again, if the return was a weak return or the ball did not go into the opposing court, the returning team loses the point. If the return is strong and the best the opponents could have done was to keep the ball in play, then a let should be played.


     
  30. jefferson

    jefferson Semi-Pro

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    I personally stand on the service line to watch that line for my partner. Putting me in the best position to make that line call. Once the ball lands in I shift into postition to play out the point. My patner is responsible for calling the two side lines of the service box, which he has the better view.

    As for overruling my partner from the net. It is a rare occurrance. They are in the much better position to make the call on the baseline. Not me who in looking over my shoulder at a ball traveling away from me. If they make an out call but then seem unsure of themselves, and I wasnt sure, we call it in and concede the point. If they make an out call and I thought maybe it was in... I agree with Blake here, they are in the much better position to make the better call. More than likely they are correct. This is a sticky situation that we all encounter. If you and your partner are constantly disagreeing, your opponents are never going to trust your calls.

    I truly dont understand making a hand signal for a good ball. If the ball is being played by your partner, your opponents are watching him not your hand signal. Who has time for all that? A non call is considered an in call for a reason. Do you make an in hand signal when the ball is being played to you? That is a real question not trying to be sarcastic. :)
     
  31. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    i wonder if cindyspinks, the originally poster will see your comment? She has disappeared since December, and since August prior to that. She used to be a prolific poster, but is no more. I wonder what happened?

     
  32. jefferson

    jefferson Semi-Pro

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    So we agree on this one!? I am truly not a total a hole. Just get a little carried away sometimes, in life and on the court.
    I hope she sees the post but.... who knows. I have never seen anyone use a hand signal for an in call. Only when the point has ended and they were just confirming their call. Or saying nice shot.
     
  33. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    These types of forums can lead to arguments/disagreements going on for much longer than they would in real life. But I usually enjoy the discussions. No harm, no foul. :)


     
  34. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Well this is subjective, but I dont always agree that the net player is always in the best position to call that service line.

    If the ball is hit fast enough with enough spin sometimes it's just a blur that travels across the service line and unless they are laying on the ground I doubt they know where exactly it landed and where it took off.

    Ive been ready to return a lot of balls that my eyes saw bounce as much as 6 inches or more in front of the service line and my partner called it out. Those are the ones I would have to overrule.

    But I agree with you that if it keeps happening, it makes us look bad and it's a drag, but if the ball was obviously in to everyone and you dont overrule it that makes you look pretty foolish as well.

    As far as the "good" hand signals, I only use them when my opponents hit a ball that was very close to being out and either I didnt get to, or I did try to return and I missed.

    The reason I do this is that my opponents dont necessarily know if Im calling it out because it was so close (especiallly if I didnt even get my racquet on it)

    Sometimes I do this and I dont notice my partner called it out at the same time, and we still lose the point. I DID see it go in (usually Im standing right on top of it), so i dont mind, even if my partner is pissed. (if he's too pissed about it then he's not going to be my partner for very long)

    If we're putting the ball back in play then we dont call it "good", that would be distracting to us and our opponents.

    I was taught that it's usually well understood that if you dont call it out, it's good. I just use the "good" signal in ambigious situations where it's not clear.
     
  35. jefferson

    jefferson Semi-Pro

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    "Well this is subjective, but I dont always agree that the net player is always in the best position to call that service line."

    you cant always be in perfect position but you can/should put yourself in the best possible position to make the call. I feel that
    i can see that line clearer than my partner who I want worrying about the return. Thats all I'm saying Javie
     
  36. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    And Im saying that it's not your sole job to call that line and you cant always see the ball clearer then your partner. Besides what do you think people do in singles?

    If someone clearly sees it go out, they should call it out, no matter which partner it is. If you dont clearly see it go out then you cant call it (neither of you).
     
  37. jefferson

    jefferson Semi-Pro

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    Absolutely, I am not disagreeing with you in the least. As for in singles the people that I play with consistently miss this call. Lucky for me that I surround myself with good people and they error in the side of the code and play the ball. Unlucky for me during the winter we play on clay and the marks dont lie!

    "If someone clearly sees it go out, they should call it out, no matter which partner it is." Totally true. All I was saying is that when you can put yourself in what you feel is the best position to make the call you should. The goal as said by you before ( i think) is to get the call correct.
    I think that service line is the most missed call from my experience. Between the pace, spin and reaction time it is easily missed.
     
  38. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    Any idea why pro tournaments place line judges on the service line to make the call whether a serve is long? Clearly it is because that is the best position to make the call. The person receiving serve can be fooled by the geometry.

    Either way you are right - if you are convinced a ball is good then you need to speak up. But if you aren't sure and your partner has the better angle, I don't have a problem with simply going by their call.
     
  39. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Right I know there are problems being the returner at times.

    I just always think it's silly when someone has to state to me "okay, you call this line and I'll call these lines.....". Im going to call it out if I see it out no matter what line it was on. If we both call it out, that's even better. (less room for contraversy then)

    I have a partner currently that does not call the service line. He's the one who complains when I didnt see it clearly and didnt call it but he doesnt say anything either. (except to complain to me)

    Funny thing is I think he makes horrible calls sometimes when Im returning, and he gets all kinds of mad when I correct his call.

    If the ball looks like it landed on the line to the returner, I can see where it might of went long. (I was playing singles one day and I figured out that Im probably losing 2-3 inches sometimes on those)

    But if the returner sees it land IN FRONT of the line, I dont think there is anyway that the ball was long. Do you guys agree with that?
     
  40. jefferson

    jefferson Semi-Pro

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    agree... easy to see it infront of line.

    I dont tell my partner dont make a call on this line, I just let him know that I am ALSO watching that line. But I am actually watching all the lines but I feel that I can make a more definitive call on that line.
     
  41. Court Valkyrie

    Court Valkyrie Banned

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    If you can't see it... IN
    If you aren't sure... IN
    If you call it out and your partner calls it in... IN
    If you ask your opponents what they think... IN
    The only way the ball is out is if you are 100% sure and firm with your call.
     
  42. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    What if you cant see it and your partner calls it OUT, and you are not sure either way?

    I think that's the funny exception to some of those. (because nothing says that both players need to call it out, just that they cant disagree)
     
  43. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    The quoted is not true for doubles. What if a ball is hit over my head, and I am facing the net, and my partner calls it out. I am not sure, i didn't see the ball, so now we have to play it in? Or does this mean I have to turn and face my partner when I am at net? Doesnt make sense.



     
  44. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    Javier, you made my point for me. If you cannot see it, and your partner calls it out, then you play it "out". If you see the ball but cannot call it in or out, but your partner sees it clearly out, then you play it "out". The same thing happens in coubles SERVES all the time, when the serve returner is returning, he is relying on his partner to call the long serves out. Many times, the serve returner is not sure whether the ball is in or out, so his partner has to make the call (or no call, which means in).


     
  45. obnoxious2

    obnoxious2 Semi-Pro

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    you shouldnt even be looking back at your partner when your up at net
     
  46. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    I can't let go of the time I called a ball 'out' and could clearly see it out. My partner, who had a worse view, nonchalantly returned that ball to our opponent, an old friend of his, while saying, "Charlie...it was in."

    This was on our baseline, so the other team couldn't easily see what happened. To them it had to look like I was intentionally cheating. Then he over-ruled my on another point a few minutes later! Those are the only times I've ever been over-ruled by a partner and they happened in the same set! What are the odds?

    This guy was an un-smiling player, who seemed to have some kind of an issue with me. If that ever happens to me again, I'll wait until my partner calls one 'out', after which I'll shake my head, as if deeply troubled, and say, "Sorry, fellows. I cannot accept a point like that. The TRUTH is, it was 'in'." :twisted:
     
  47. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    why are you calling balls "in" while your partner is trying to make a shot and has a better view of the ball? if you clearly see the ball in THEN OVERRULE your partner. don't call balls "in", simply not making a call means it is "in" and avoids these issues.
     
  48. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    steadyeddy tricked me! i didnt realize this thread was 4 years old...although it did seem familiar!


     
  49. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    ^^Sorry, didn't mean to. I really needed a thread for "When you see it 'out' but your partner says in."
     
  50. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    The Code has changed since this thread started.

    Funny thing. I cannot for the life of me remember who this partner in OP may have been.
     

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