Where do you put Agassi on your GOAT list (if you have one)?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Prisoner of Birth, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    You wouldn't know a sense of humor if it crawled up your leg and bit you on the badoingas. Case in point, my prior post was quite funny, at your expense, but, funny nonetheless.
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Trabert is well-acknowledged by the experts but Kovacs f.i, is not.

    Seixas, Drobny and Borotra are not often mentioned because most posters prefer to write about pros as they were the better pkayers.
     
  3. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Fine analysis and I think most people would agree with it
     
  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Sorry, my English is not good enough to understand your insults.

    My sense of humour: Ask kiki...
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Borotra was just almost as good as Lacoste and Cochet but seems to get third fiddle when people talks about the Mousketeers.Seixas was at Trabert´s level when both were amateurs, and Drobny was considered a potential nº 1 for a few years.What underrating guys like those ( I just used them as examples) shows is just very little knowledge of the game.Nothing else.
     
  6. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Emerson, Ashe, Roche and Nastase all had a better backhand returns that Kodes, and were better than Kodes in every other aspect of the game as well.

    PS: Cliff Drysdale had a better backhand return that Kodes, too.
     
  7. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Here let me contradict a bit. Borotra never was No.1 while Lacoste and Cochet have been.

    Drobny ( a genius player) was never considered clearly a No.1.

    But I agree that these players are almost forgotten now, alas.
     
  8. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I think Drobny was the first player that Rod Laver played at Wimbledon. Drobny is one of the few that beat the Rocket at Wimbledon.

    I think Vic Seixas was below Trabert even in the amateurs. In 1955 Trabert was almost invincible. He won the last three majors of the year and there was a ridiculous number of consecutive tournaments that he won. And as great as Trabert was he was destroyed by Pancho Gonzalez 74 to 27 in a long tour.
     
  9. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Laver didn't like playing lefties. I also think that Trabert beat defending champion, Drobney, to win his first Wimbledon.
     
  10. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That's one of the reasons Laver had some problems with Tony Roche. Of course the main reason is that Roche was just a super gifted player.

    Not that this means anything but one of my fantasy match ups is the two great lefties, John McEnroe versus Rod Laver at Wimbledon. Just an FYI, I believe Rod Laver's last Wimbledon was John McEnroe's first Wimbledon. In some ways a passing of the guard from one great lefty genius to another.
     
  11. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Latter top-20.

    A career slam (a Carilloism) and $3 might buy one a cup of coffee.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I wonder what single thing did Kodes do well to have a much better record than Roche at majors, a better one than Nastase and equal than Ashe.
     
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Drobny was the first great champion ( bar Kozeluh) from current Czech republic.he was famous for his legendary drop shots that some journalist rate still unique.He was the first guy to beat Rosewall at the Wimbledon final.
     
  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    true, he hated playing Fraser, who beat him at the Wimbledon final and, to a lesser extent, Tony Roche, whom he always dominated when it counted.I can´t recall of other lefties that peaked along Laver, was there any other?
     
  15. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    great point on Laver passing the torch to Mac.Since Laver was the worldwide standart of measure back then and also a lefty, when Mac showed up he became inmediately compared to Laver.I think it was Tingay who said that Mc Enroe was the best player from Laver.In many ways, I also think so.In others, not.
     
  16. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Better health than Roche, a player boycott, and he was really one of the first clay court specialists. Bottom line is that he won a total of 8 singles titles in his career, 2 of which were FO's and one W in a boycott year.
     
  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Niki Pilic.
     
  18. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Luck of boycott?
     
  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Right.And Roger Taylor.
     
  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Roche was healthy enough to lose a lot of major semis and finals.

    1973 Wimbledon had 3 of the best all time players, although certainly a few 2 or 3 like Newcombe,Smith and Rosewall would be favoured over Kodes to win it, but story happens once at each time.
     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lucky that 3 of the all time greats could not reach the finals that year, while Kodes did.That is quite lucky.

    Borg was lucky to win the 79 FO, since he did not play Vilas ( beaten in the quarters), Connors ( beaten in the semis), Tanner and Mc Enroe ( who were injuried).Instead he got Gildemeister, Gerulaitis and Pecci.He never lost to Gildemeister and Gerulaitis in his whole career.
     
  22. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Kodes was a great opportunist, and no one can fault him for that. But, you can't convince me that he was as great as Roche, Nastase, Ashe or Emerson. Nor were Tanner, Gildemeister, Gerulaitis or Pecci.
     
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Talent wise, he is as good if not better than Ememrson ( this guy was the GOAT opportunistic since he decided to remain amateur9 but I don´t think Kodes was more talented than Ashe,Roche and , of course, Nastase.He was less talented, without any doubt.

    If we go to records, Kodes won as many GS titles as Ashe ( but Ashe won WCT finals so his record is a bit better than Kodes) and more than Nastase and Roche, although one can make a case for Nastase´s 4 Masters titles, which Kodes never won, so it is about tied.

    Roche is far behind them, he was a great talent, with a solid ground game and a terrific volley but quite of a loser if we consider how many opportunities did he have and how many finals he lost.In doubles, however, ranks among the best ever.
     
  24. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Sorry, not a chance. Emerson was one of the greatest all around athletes in tennis history. He had a first tier 1hb, a first tier net game and was among the fastest players who ever played. Kodes was a tireless, fearless competitor, but, not an exceptionally talented athlete like Emerson.

    Tony Roche was as much an underachiever as Kodes was an overachiever. Injuries was partly responsible for that. Roche could also get angry and down on himself in tough matches. Roche also had the misfortune of coming up with Laver, Rosewall, Newcombe, Ashe, Smith, Nastase and others with championship level competitiveness.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  25. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    he was the luckiest person at those slams - winning 3 of the weakest majors ever ........... he won nothing when the fields were full ...
     
  26. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    While kiki obviously overrates Kodes to ridiculous margins, when it comes to Nastase, Kodes did beat Nastase in the final to win 1 of his 2 French Opens, and won the Wimbledon Nastase was supposed to win in his sleep but lost early at. Nastase having less majors than Kodes is largely since he couldnt even win those 2 weak majors which Kodes won instead. Obviously Nastase is more talented, but talent only means so much, the guy might have been more talented than Borg or Connors even, but that doesnt make him greater, he was a nutcase. Kodes 2 U.S Open final runs which included some huge wins, and lost very competitive finals were also tremendous, especialy for someone who was mainly a clay courter.
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Not so much lucky to play int he weakest era ever as Federer has been godblessed with.While Kodes,he played in the most competitive era of all time.
     
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    He also reached several semis at majors, which include the Masters,Wimbledon,Forest Hills,Dallas and lost to Swede in Sweden the DC finals, which he won as a non playing captain the year of his retirement (1980)

    Kodes and Led Zeppelin retired the same year.Not a casual coincidence¡¡¡
     
  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I agree this time
     
  30. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, It's not a shame to lose in majors to Laver and Rosewall.

    Kodes was 1:4 against old Rosewall to put Roche's defeats by Muscles into perspective.
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I think Roche´s real problems were in his head, and it was a great way to overcome them to be able to take Lendl were he took him.
    The guys you mention as tough opposition for Roche, were exactly the same guys Kodes had to play during his prime, while Borg,Connors,Vilas came a bit after his prime.
     
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, I meant that both Roche and Kodes lost to Laver and Rosewall and that this is no blame on the formers' careers
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  33. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    here's a fact : the only worthy opponent he beat in 3, yes, 3 majors was nastase in 71 RG ....

    that's how weak the 3 majors he won was .....

    federer has played in one of the most competitive eras of all time :
    nadal, djokovic, agassi, safin, hewitt, kuerten, roddick, murray, del potro etc etc .....

    and he's beaten almost every one of note in the majors he's won ....
     
  34. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    except Kodes didn't win against Laver/Rosewall in any of the major events ...

    He had a major losing H2H vs newk and had a losing H2H vs smith as well ...

    Kodes had a total of 8 titles ....just goes to show he wasn't that good at all .... just that he got lucky, extremely lucky in those majors that he won ... Hes at par with a one-slam winner and history ranks him correctly that way ......
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So Newcombe ,Stan Smith,Ashe are not worthy opponents at majors?

    *******s agree that peak Federer was 2006 and the level of opposition was pathetic
     
  36. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    did he beat them in the majors that he won ? NO ..

    he might have beat one or two, but lost to the other ......

    like I said , full field = no majors for Kodes ...

    his peak was 2004-2007 ... while level of opposition was relatively weaker in 2006 compared to the other 3 years, it was still pretty good .......

    every major in 2006, he faced wayyyyyy more competition than Kodes did in RG 70 ( franulovic ) and wim 73 (taylor) .....

    AO 2006 - davydenko/haas/baghdatis
    FO 2006 - nalbandian/nadal
    wim 2006 - nadal/ancic
    USO 2006 - roddick/davydenko/blake

    all wayyyyy better than the joke fields of RG 70 and wim 73 ...
     
  37. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Kodes is on par with a 1 slam winner and Vines is on par with a 7 or 8 slam winner.
     
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Sure, Kodes would shiver with panic if he heard the names of Blake,Davidoff,Roddick (on cc), Bagdhatis,Haas and ¡ Ancic¡.I think he would have nightmares for the rest of his live.

    Funniest post in weeks, ABMK
     
  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    And Plaa is next on the list for GOAT, right.... or was it Bunny Austin?
     
  40. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yes, he would have major troubles with all the players ..... and dumbo, I never mentioned roddick on CC ... I mentioned him at the USO, which is on HC ..

    roddick/davydenko in particular at their best would blow him off court on HC .he'd have major problems with baghdatis/haas/peak blake on HC and vs peak ancic on grass as well ....
     
  41. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Dang!

    Abmk is "spot on" in his opining here, as well.



    Relevance?

    Let's just not go there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ROOOOOFLMAO

    I gotta see the doctor right now.
     
  43. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    something you should've done a long time ago .....
     

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