Where is Bungalow Bill?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Golden Retriever, Aug 18, 2006.

  1. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Hahaha, it is not that I didnt like it, I simply provided a different perspective that you didnt like.

    The context that I remember was if a coach was ripping you off when they asked you to pay up front and provided a discount in the offer. There is nothing wrong with that from an ethical and marketing perspective. You felt a student shouldn't pay upfront and if I remember right, you sided with the board members that felt the coach was ripping players off that way.

    I didn't care whether one paid or not, my point was the coach wasn't trying to rip anyone off.

    If you still feel the coach is ripping a student off by offering a discount and paying upfront for several lessons that is your choice.

    Once again, I offered my reasoning for my position and I stand by it.

    My henchmen? I think what bothers you is that a clear majority of people agree with me and I agree with them on many things because it is based on common sense, practices, insights, research, and facts that you don't like.

    A lot of this is like when I audit someone and they disagree with my finding and recommendation. Some of them fume, get beligerant, cuss, yell, and make threats at me for calling their cards. Yet I provide my evidence and my evidence is reasonable and substantiated. They have no argument and no path except to attack me personnally because I do not give in and I do not bend.

    If they continue to attack me personally I dig my heels and find more evidence because I know I am right and have the facts on my side. At some point they cave in and because they can't attack me anymore they start attacking those that agree with me, like the Federal Government, the State Government and other bodies of regulations, rules, guidelines, and laws.

    Sound familiar?

    It isn't about anyone but you buddy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  2. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, I remember you ducked for cover once I mentioned it in a post. Didnt see you for awhile. Kidding!

    And no, you shouldn't flatter yourself, it didn't get to me. Well, maybe it did but in a different way. Perhaps it was the most twilight zone comment I have read in the years I have been here.

    I remember spitting out my beer reading it and laughing real hard. So in that way? Yes, it did get to me.

    You always start out civil? Why do certain people lack any sort of self-reflection and self-regulation? Why do people who are just as guilty starting conflict the one's that seem to think they are the victims of the conflicts they actually started?

    Do you honestly think I believe you start things off civil all the time? Maybe sometimes you do, but you don't all the time that is for sure.

    Dont know how you can say efficiency development is not inherent in footwork drills when that is exactly why they are developed, how they are developed, and what they are for.

    Players do move differently, however, not all players move in the most effective and efficient way. proven and common ways to get better. That is where we disagree.

    But didn't we go around and around about this? ANd how did it end? With me providing examples and evidence that supported what I was saying and didn't support what you were saying. It was right about that time you started resorting to personal insults I believe.

    No matter what you say Certified, I will always disagree with you that footwork is natural and that everyone should just run to the ball.

    I think the issue you have is you think EVERY coach thinks like this. You take a few samples and derive your conclusion based on a limited sample. Further, you tend to exaggerate and go to an extreme on things.

    Coaches are held accountable. If a player isn't getting their money's worth depending on a players goals, a player can stop paying. If the coach continues to lose students due to faulty instruction, they starve.

    A good coach will always depend on a students desire to practice what was learned in a lesson or a drill. Without practice, your risk of turning knowledge into performance is greatly reduced.

    Student: "I took five lessons and never improved. It was a waste of time and a ripoff. All tennis coaches are ripoffs and students are wasting their money."

    Coach: "Well, did you practice what you learned in that hour lesson?"

    Student: "Practice? I paid the coach to make me a better tennis player. I don't think I need to practice if I am paying him to make me a better tennis player."

    You sound like a patient who didnt take his medicine after being diagnosed and a prescription was issued to help you get better. Later, you blamed it on the Doctor for not making you get better. Yeah, right.

    In essence, if a studnet doesn't apply what they learned in a lesson they paid for - your fired.

    The other thing about lessons is sometime for several weeks you are working on the same thing. The amount of new information has diminished and the lessons are mainly focused on developing good habits. Sometimes students get bored and bad mouth the coach for not teaching them something new everytime they get taught.

    Unrealistic expectations from the student side is rarely considered.

    Yeah, disagree big time. I have taught many players that have learned on their own and they can't get out of a slump even after filmiing themselves, watching pro players, etc...and they need something else. A coach can be a valuable tool in this situation.

    I think what you need to do is appreciate that you have the ability, desire, and know how to learn on your own. This does not apply to everyone and many people have benefited from having an on-going coach which you seem to ignore in your analysis and beliefs.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  3. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    What a surprise. He's an IRS agent. Everybody's favorite occupation, right next to meter maid, as the most hated.

    BB said: "My henchmen? I think what bothers you is that a clear majority of people agree with me and I agree with them on many things because it is based on common sense, practices, insights, research, and facts that you don't like.

    A lot of this is like when I audit someone and they disagree with my finding and recommendation. Some of them fume, get beligerant, cuss, yell, and make threats at me for calling their cards. Yet I provide my evidence and my evidence is reasonable and substantiated. They have no argument and no path except to attack me personnally because I do not give in and I do not bend.

    If they continue to attack me personally I dig my heels and find more evidence because I know I am right and have the facts on my side. At some point they cave in and because they can't attack me anymore they start attacking those that agree with me, like the Federal Government, the State Government and other bodies of regulations, rules, guidelines, and laws.

    Sound familiar?

    It isn't about anyone but you buddy."
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  4. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Sounds like someone needs a timeout. LOL

    What is funny is you complain that I insult, when you have no problem insulting someone's profession? Sounds hypocritical.

    However, you are wrong again. I audit fortune 500 companies on various Sarbanes Oxley Sections and on occcasion Single Audits Einstein.

    But nice try though! LOL
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  5. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Which is why Certifieds comments needs to be taken with a grain (a small grain) of salt. It is not only the coach that makes a player perform at a high-level, it is a players desire to perfect what he is learning through practice.

    Most people don't have the desire to put in the necessary hours on court perfecting their footwork, technique, conditioning, etc...

    Sometimes these people are the ones that blame the coach for their lack of growth.
     
  6. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    So you post an insult right after a long, well thought out post? Pot, meet kettle.
     
  7. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    There's one! A long, well thought out post? Well, long anyhow.
     
  8. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    I love how you look for anything to comment on except the actual post. Sounds like you don't have anything worth while to say.
     
  9. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    ..........................
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  10. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Do you like Irs agents? Anal retentive, vindictive, vengeful types. The type to stick it to the local grocer, and then lie about the grocer threatening him and when the grocer has it on video tape, after the grocer is arrested, the cops do nothing to the agent at all. The grocer said, "What do you want me to do, kill myself?", and that got translated to: "He said he was going to kill me." Without the tape, the guy would still be in jail.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  11. Steady Eddy

    Steady Eddy Hall of Fame

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    Then here's another. So you're BB's sidekick? A second banana. He's the alpha male, you're the beta.
     
  12. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Exactly. ..
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  13. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    Hey, BB! I sent you an e-mail a week or so ago. If the e-mail associated with TT isn't good anymore, please e-mail me (off my Screen Name). I just don't make that much time to post on TT these days....

    - KK
     
  14. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

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    Since we are already off topic, how is it going selling those two rackets on Eb@y for $2,000?

    :shock:
     
  15. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    Not serious about that. Did it as a lark. You never know. It's very hard to find balanced sticks, brand new. I've never seen them, new. Tough times for me, work wise.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2010
  16. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    Well said Eddy. In one of my first posts on TT about 5 years ago BB jumped on me because we disagreed over what was or wasn't a rule of tennis. I quoted from Friend at Court and his counter argument was just to insult me. But unlike a lot of other dingleberriess and immature idiots on the forums, Bill isn't on my ignore list because he does occasionally have some good advice buried in all his invective.
     
  17. pug

    pug Semi-Pro

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    10 char

    [​IMG]
     
  18. kiteboard

    kiteboard Hall of Fame

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    The good/the bad/the ugly. It's not a Clint Eastwood movie in here, but a place where we are supposed to help each other get better, not see who has the biggest ego and most backers.
     
  19. See, we're back to this "proven" concept. what you're saying/suggesting is not PROVEN. if you remember, my question, repeatedly, was to provide evidence on how one particular footwork drill/strategy helps to achieves ITS intended goal, not how it "improves footwork." If i go to college and major in accounting, each course i take has to have its own purpose. departments can't say "take this coruse because it'll improve your accounting proficiency". they must say "take this course because it'll improve [one aspect of accounting]" and then they must show how it improves. what coaches do is say ''do this drill and it'll make you 'move better', 'make you more efficient', etc. " without providing a specific link between Drill X and Result Y.


    See what you consider ''evidence'' is just examples.examples don't prove a point, nor do examples of people practicing drills demonstrate how EACH drill is effective. THAT IS THE KEY CHALLENGE TO OVERCOME. That is, showing the effectiveness of each specific drill in achieving its intended goal. if you can demonstrate that, Bill, I will bow down. you can even give me a drill to try and i will follow it diligently and report the results on an honor system.


    but this is what you do as well. you try to prove your statements by bringing up successful players and what coaches say in articles.

    i may have the ability to learn on my own and may have natural talent. but that doesn't mean that this ability or talent is anything average. i learned by playing on the wall for hours and hours before i even stepped onto a court. i learned by getting a feel for the ball and how the racket felt in my hands when i hit a specific stroke, NOT by copying someone's style. i think THAT is the key, to try to duplicate a feeling, and NOT a posture.
     
  20. i actually used that very word, ''beta'', months ago when arguing with BB. i think i said 'beta morons'. why must they come to his defense! do they get points??? i woudl like to get points.
     
  21. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    The problem with this thinking is that you are assuming that everyone will know which "feeling" is the correct way to hit. I remember when I first learned to hit topspin: it all felt right to me, the brushing, the arc on the shot, the windshield wiper followthrough, etc. Turns out I had almost no shoulder turn, extension through contact, or proper weight transfer and I was hitting service line sitters up the middle of the court. Now you'd be correct if you said I'm not the most talented guy out there. But the point is, if some people base their entire game on searching for a certain "feel", they're going to misinterpret something and technical flaws will rear their ugly head when the going gets tough.


    P.S. If you insist on "real" evidence from other posters, why not post a video of your "natural game"? Let's see this wall based forehand of yours.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  22. what is more important: hitting a technically perfect topspin shot or a winner?

    You're stuck in this thinking that there is a correct and incorrect way of playing tennis based on technical soundness. there is only correct way of playing: the one that gets you a victory.
     
  23. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Haha, yeah, I guess if you word it like that it sounds pretty spiffy. You left out one "tiny" problem though. Pro players demonstate this "technical soundness". At this point you're just spouting hypothetical nonsense.
     
  24. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    We aren't stuck in this thinking. You are and think we are.

    Tennis does have boundaries that help reduce the risk that a player won't realize their potential should they do something outside of those boundaries.

    These boundaries are time tested and are the basis of learning tennis and growing with the sport at a reasonable rate (with practice) to help a player reach their goals.

    Tennis instruction lays out a plan for those players that want a plan and want to get better at what others have learned and documented that helps increase the chance of a higher level of play while reducing the risk of injury.

    What you seem to forget is you are either instructing yourself at known information, someone is instructing you from known information, or both.

    People learn in a variety of ways, not just your way. And your examples make absolutely no sense.

    You are exaggerating a technical part of a stroke (technically perfect topspin) to a reasonable shot selection choice (going for a winner).

    Both should be learned while something that is in the realm of perfection should be strived for while understanding when to go for a winner.

    And some would like to know a way that sets them up for ongoing growth, reducing the chance of injury, and highlighting their strengths while they learn and work on their weakness.

    Geez, dude, please, sometime, for goodness sakes, MAKE SENSE!
     
  25. Ok i don't remember writing the last sentence you quoted; is it even mine?


    anyway, lets' stick to one challenge:

    Using the evidence you spoke of earlier:
    1. Pick a footwork drill
    2. state its purpose
    3. show, using the evidence, that the drill delivered its promises.

    Let's stick to that.

    Your move.
     
  26. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    So you're essentially asking him to prove a concept that's based on long term development through one/a few videos? I guess people really do think you can have something for nothing.
     
  27. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Sure,

    1. Split-step

    2. Used as breif pause in order for a player to be able to change direction and reduce the chance of being wrong-footed.

    3. Look at the pros.

    YOUR MOVE...
     
  28. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    I don't get it. I thought split step is for you to help with the timing and exploding into intercepting the ball.

    How is it used as a brief pause?

    thanks, bb.
     
  29. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    He's going to say that the split step can be learned naturally, blah blah blah, not a real drill, blah blah blah.
     
  30. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    The split-step is to breifly unweight you off your feet, so that when your shoes begin to grip the court as your weight starts to come back over your feet, you can explode to the direction of the ball (push off with the appropriate foot). The pause is because sometimes you are moving towards recovery and you need to unweight yourself with some of your momentum still headed towards the recovery mark. If your opponent tries to hit behind you, by unweighting yourself off your feet briefly you have a better chance to change direction. The split-step also sets up the use of other footwork patterns to help you get to the ball more effectively and efficiently.

    The split-step is also used in service returns for quick direction change. Most people have trouble with the split-step because they need to practice timing it and they need to develop push off coordination in their non-dominant leg/foot.

    If you have ever skiied, and tried to learn how to slalom through the gates, the timing of your change in direction is a lot harder then you would going down a hill without those gates. A skiers feet are constantly unwieghting and weighting, unweighting and weighting as they shift their feet in anticipation for a change in direction. You have to practice to get it down and turn when you need to turn. The timing of the split-step is similar to this.

    You need to develop your mental focus for the split-step so you might as well start using a cadence like HIT-BOUNCE-HIT. This way you are constantly in the point and your mind directs your feet in real-time. It will eventually become almost like dancing. Your movement will look elegant, graceful, and effective.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  31. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Hard to reason with someone when they want to take your position to an extreme but yet present their side with reason. Just weird.

    Still, anyone can learn on their own and anyone can learn through a coach. It depends on how the person learns and what he is most comfortable with. However, there is something he will run up against as this moves forward, he can't deny that the best players in the world have coaches and still work and perfect their fundamentals with these coaches.

    Now why would a world class athlete who has excellent strokes, conditioning, strategy/tactics need a coach? when you think about this, his entire position crumbles and makes no sense at all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  32. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Going along with what BB is saying, the split step puts you balance in "neutral." You make your read, and then you shift your balance according to that read. That involves changing direction and having a quick first step.
     
  33. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    That makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much, BB.

    "you explode to the direction of the ball (push off with the appropriate foot)."

    I have another question. Is there a particular foot that you must initiate going into a direction? Say, I need to take 5 steps to my FH side to reach the ball, which foot should I start to push off coming out of a split step? Thanks, again.

    ____

    Tricky, I immediately thought about the word neutral associating with split step and changing direction. I did not realize the "pause" effect. I wrongly thought pause indicated a hiccup effect, but I got it now from BB's explanation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2010
  34. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    If you are righthanded, then you would push off with your left foot and step out with your right foot.

    For the most part, you want to push off with your outside foot. So in that breif pause while you are unwieghted, you need to read the ball. The better you get, the smoother your split-step is and your change in direction.

    The splitstep also helps you keep your feet apart through your movement. As a player eliminating unnecessary crossover steps help improve your coverage on the court.
     
  35. ninjatennis

    ninjatennis New User

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    i love bungalo bill. you rock.
     
  36. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    They need to brush up on their running to the ball occasionally, while discussing their "feelings" about their strokes. Sounds like a women's study group to me.
     
  37. larry10s

    larry10s Hall of Fame

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    i have only read the last few posts since once BB declared IM BACK this thread should have died ill say this simply to all of you who disagree with him
    YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.just my humble 2 cents
     
  38. tricky

    tricky Hall of Fame

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    Part of footwork is shifting your mentality from "fast" to "quick", and from "catching" to "deflecting." It may seem like semantics, but it's really a shift in your approach to moving. The big one is learning to shift your balance and use momentum to move. For example, try turning one of your upper legs from the hip, so that the toes point outward. You'll notice that your balance heavily leans in the direction of that foot. The split step makes this more natural.
     
  39. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    your parents must be proud. they gave you a great upbringing.
     
  40. KenC

    KenC Professional

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    Now I have to ask. Is that you "shredding" in your avatar? I've been a shredder since the 80's. I see that there are a few tennis players who also are musicians here.
     
  41. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Yes, that is me, Steve Vai. Nice to meet you.
     
  42. KenC

    KenC Professional

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    It doesn't look like Vai to me, maybe when he was really young...
     
  43. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    The guitar's a dead giveaway, although I do own that one. I've only tried tongue style once or twice, and it didn't taste great, what with my neglecting to change strings in a timely manner and all.
     
  44. KenC

    KenC Professional

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    Is that a white Jem? It's too hard to tell from the avatar.
     
  45. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Yep. Nice guitar, but it'll never sound like my Les Paul Classic.
     
  46. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    The JEM is a nice guitar except I don't like ceramic magnet pickups, floating bridges ( though I love Floyd's but set up flush ;) ) and thin Ibanez necks :p
     
  47. Djokovicfan4life

    Djokovicfan4life Legend

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    Wouldn't you know that already, what with your talk of "science" and "logic" and such? If you insist on "proof" of the blatently obvious, here's some proof, Scooter--- try it out for yourself. Sprint parallel to the baseline and back as quickly as possible. Do it once using the split step to turn around and once without it. If you insist on being "scientific" you can time yourself.
     
  48. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Oh man, tough thread for me....I can't stand Bill's arrogance and some times poor advice, yet I am a strong believer in the value of the split step.

    Guess I will sit this one out and let them go back and forth.
     
  49. diredesire

    diredesire Super Moderator

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    If you're going to turn this thread personal, send an e-mail. Lets keep the TROLLING and quarreling off the board, there's better places for that.
     
  50. beernutz

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    Zing! We have a winner, thanks for playing folks, please enjoy your parting gifts.
     

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