Where should my kid go?

Discussion in 'College Tennis Talk' started by jonkras, Apr 23, 2012.

  1. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    My son is a Jr in HS, and 3 star TRN (although he is a very good doubles player and would be mid-4 star if they ranked that). He has really great academics (Ivy league level). We've started looking at some DIII schools, but the sticker price scares me off. I think it will be tough for me to get any type of significant financial aid. He is clearly not good enough to get an athletic scholarship, but are there schools than anyone knows of that have good academics where he could get significant academic merit $$ that would be tennis friendly?
     
  2. cll30

    cll30 Rookie

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    Check out schools in the Patriot League.

    Army
    Bucknell
    Colgate
    Holy Cross
    Lafayette
    Lehigh
    Navy
     
  3. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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    All the schools above are great choices. You would be surprised at some of the packages that DIII schools like Brandeis, Johns Hopkins, Rensselaer Polytechnic, Carleton, MIT and Carnegie Mellon can do.

    One thing that you have to understand is that the higher academic schools are filled with students with Ivy League numbers, so academic money is very hard to come by.

    You're best bet might be to contact companies like Scholarship for Athletes or Donovan. I know people are always scared about spending a few thousand for a consultant but if that person can save you $100,000 over 4 years then it is a no brainer. You also might consider sending him to Ed Krass' college showcases where he will be seen by 15+ college coaches at a time.
     
  4. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    If it would be tough to get any type of significant financial aid at an Ivy, that must mean you are pretty well-off financially.

    If your son has Ivy League level academics, you have enough financial assets so that the generous need-based packages in the Ivies wouldn't apply to you, he is a three-star TRN.............why wouldn't you encourage him to get an Ivy degree/credential regardless of the tennis.

    I don't think a career at a mid-ranked DIII tennis program is worth sacrificing an Ivy education that you say he qualifies for.
     
  5. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    My daughter just went through this process and is attending a top DIII school with a large merit scholarship. She limited her search to DIII and Ivy league schools based on her goals.

    Many of the DIII schools cover full financial need and also offer merit scholarships.

    Also, many if not all of the Ivy league colleges cover full financial need. Some even cover full tuition and fees if parental income is less than a certain amount.

    I would encourage you and your son to contact these schools. You can get a financial aid estimate and also probably a good idea how much merit aid he would be eligible for.

    To maximize merit aid, make sure that he takes SAT and/or ACT prep very seriously and gets his best possible score.

    I would definitely encourage you to look at DIII and Ivy League and apply broadly. You'll be surprised at what great financial aid/merit packages available.

    Also, of course, look at outside scholarships like Gates (if he is Asian, black, hispanic, or native american) and other outside scholarships as well.

    Talk to his HS counselor...this person should be of help.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  6. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Yes, this is true, but this kid will be VERY attractive to a top DIII school like MIT, CALTECH, pomona, oberlin, amherst, emory, etc

    because he is a great student and also a good athlete... and him being a top doubles player is a HUGE bonus.

    I can't understate that fact enough. So many juniors are not proficient in doubles at all and this will make him very much wanted by college coaches.

    The dad and son should start contacting DIII coaches right now and talk about their concerns. The coach can be a big help with admission and scholarships.
     
  7. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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  8. mmk

    mmk Professional

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    MIT only gives need-based aid, this coming from the father of a graduating 2 sport captain.
     
  9. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    I know this is a tennis site... but your son is not going to be playing tennis for a living.

    If his academics are great ( Ivy league level),
    then he should go ED to the school that interests him the most academically.

    Once he is accepted, he can always try to do a walk on or play club.

    ( It is not so easy to get "significant academic merit" as the rest of the student body will have similar grades/scores).

    Good luck, it is a tough year to juggle it all, but try to pass the baton as much as possible to your son so he feels it is his decision.
     
  10. tennismom42

    tennismom42 Semi-Pro

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    try Emory

    If he's smart, he should try Emory. It's in Atlanta & he'll get a top notch education & play some tennis.

    Sometimes they don't play the freshman year, but practice with the team. Your son may not want to get locked into an athletic scholarship his freshman year, as the school pretty much "owns" the kid for the next 4 years. It's difficult to cycle out of a school once an athletic scholarship has been accepted.

    Also, try collegeboard.com instead. Be sure to pick D3 school on the athletics/activities tab. It's the best college search engine.
     
  11. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    LOL. Yes, there are a ton of great students, but there are not a ton of great students who are also very good tennis players. His tennis will get him a leg up in the admissions process that other great students do not have.

    My daughter just went through this process, so I have a good idea what I am talking about.

    Yes, this kid as a 3-star player with top grades and lots of doubles experience will be VERY ATTRACTIVE to top DIII schools. He could probably find a team on the top 5 DIII schools which attract 3, 4, 5 star players, but he certainly will be EXTREMELY ATTRACTIVE to lots of other top schools like Caltech and MIT and a host of other GREAT schools, etc. which attract lower quality tennis players.

    My daughter was recruited at MIT, Caltech, Chicago, and a bunch of other schools with all of these coaches calling, emailing and getting free visits to many schools, so I know what I am talking about.

    Coaches were very excited about my daughter because she is top in her class and also a very good tennis player. It is a rare combination to have an Ivy league GPA, academics and test scores and also be a very good tennis player. I know firsthand that the MIT coach and Caltech coach will both offer to support your admissions application if they want you on their team....this will certainly help gain admissions at those super competitive schools.

    He should start contacting coaches now and arrange visits, learn about the schools and narrow his list down from there.

    I don't think there is so much difference between male and female recruiting when it comes to DIII schools.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2012
  12. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    I think the investment would be worth it. Do you know that Donovan can save you that type of money?
     
  13. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    But if the Ivy degree costs $200K and the mid-ranked DIII program is only $50K is it worth the difference? That is what I am trying to figure out. Even though an Ivy degree is not to have, I am not sure it is worth that amount of money.
     
  14. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    Solanka -- I agree with your points above, and similar ones made by others. We have actually started contacting the good DIII programs and I think his prospects are very good at many of these. Maybe I am being greedy, but I still am also thinking about price. Is it worth it to go to a top DIII (academic) and pay $200K for 4 yrs of school if there is an option to go to a mid-DIII where he might be able to get a merit scholarship and tuition costs are much lower. I am not sure what our aid packages will be (if any at all) right now. I am working on figuring that out. But if the fin aid packages are not that good we would consider other schools where merit is available. For instance, you can get pretty good merit $$ at Tulane. What I was hoping was to see if anyone knew of specific mid DIII programs that are known to give merit aid.
     
  15. mmk

    mmk Professional

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    Why is your kid going to go to college? Is it just to play tennis? Is it just to get a degree, any degree? Or is it to get a degree in something they are interested in and then get a good job? The news today said that only 1 in 2 graduates this year will get a job. So pick schools that will set your kid up for success after school, then weigh the costs, and then tennis. Just my $0.02.
     
  16. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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  17. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I don't know if it is worth the difference. People here could debate that one forever!

    But are you sure you are doing your math right? Ivies at about $200k total is in the ballpark. You are then comparing the Ivies to DIII schools that cost about $12,500 per year for tuition, room and board....total $50k?

    The kid has Ivy academic credentials, you said. You said you are well-off enough financially so that you probably wouldn't qualify for any of the generous Ivy need-based financial aid.

    And you are considering to send your kid to a $12,500 per year school so he can play on a mid-ranked DIII tennis program????

    To echo Tball............this is the kid's preference, his dream, his ambition?
     
  18. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    My son really likes his tennis and wants to play it in college. The tennis is important when picking a school because you have to like the coach and the kids on the team. My wife was a scholarship tennis player and had a coaching change after her sophomore year. She hated the coach and transferred. He would never go to a school he doesn't think is a fit acadmically. All I am trying to do is find the right combination of school, tennis and finances. Not an easy thing to do really.
     
  19. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    The $12,500 is a "guesstimate" number I made up assuming he went to a mid DIII school that gave him merit aid. I have no idea what type of merit aid is out there. That is what I am trying to find out
     
  20. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    The generous Ivy need-based financial aid is not so generous. They say they meet 100% of need, but they define what need is. If you even have a small amount of money saved up, they will take it. It is ridiculous. Go to collegeconfidential.com and you can see what I am talking about.
     
  21. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Don't need to go there. I know what I'm talking about
     
  22. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Tulane isn't a mid-DIII tennis school.

    It is D1, Conference-USA............middle of the pack in that so-so conference. So are you asking the Board about DIIIs or any non-Ivies?

    If $12,500 per year is your college spending target, but you are too rich to get need-based aid from the Ivies, then I guess you are right that your Ivy-qualified son will have to forego an Ivy education.
     
  23. tennis5

    tennis5 Professional

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    What about your state school?

    Some states have amazing state schools, and provide an excellent education for a very reasonable price.
     
  24. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  25. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    The answer to your question is: No, the expensive school is not worth the price difference. This has been studied over the years a couple of times, and I will finally get around to starting a thread to discuss the most recent study. Here is the gist of the argument: If you study how much money people are making ten years after graduation, the schools seem to fall into many different tiers of excellence. (Yes, I know that making money isn't everything, but it is a big part of the rationalization that people give for blowing a fortune at the top tier schools.) On the surface, the outcomes would seem to justify the greater expenses. But the samples are biased. A very top tier school (Ivies, a few near-Ivies) gets students who have a lot of factors that predict success (intelligence, having the ambition and confidence to apply to the Ivy tier in the first place, etc.). How do we know that any value is actually added by going to the Ivy tier in the first place? Ditto for the next tier, the third tier, the fourth tier, the fifth tier, etc. These are not random samples of students.

    What if you took two students with the same SATs, who both applied to the top tier and got rejected, both applied to the second near-Ivy tier and got accepted, but one decided to go to the third tier while the other accepted his spot in the second tier. Does it make any difference which tier of school they went to? In terms of making money ten years down the road, the answer is no. Notice that the study has factored out the variables of SAT scores, the factor of having the ambition and confidence to apply to the top two tiers of schools, and we have a good idea that the students are very comparable because they were both accepted and rejected from the same schools. Say, both kids almost made the Ivy tier, both got accepted into the second tier, but one kid said to heck with it, it turns out my hometown university is one of the very best state schools in the whole nation (Cal, Michigan, Virginia), so I will just go there. Ten years later, he is making the same money as the kid who went to that expensive second-tier school.

    Conclusion: It matters how smart you are. It matters how ambitious and confident you are. It does not matter that you take the final step of spending a fortune to get one tier higher on the college prestige ladder, because the value added by those colleges is not statistically significant for most people. Because each tier of schools has, on average, a smarter/more ambitious/more confident student body than the next tier below it, statistical studies of future earnings will show higher earnings per tier without proving that the colleges themselves deserve any credit for it.
     
  26. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    I like this thread. It is an excellent topic that helps parents with the differences both academically and athletically of the university levels. My vote here is mid-level D3 with excellent academics probably costing $20,000 per year with academic scholarship help.
     
  27. TennisFan2Day

    TennisFan2Day Rookie

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  28. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I basically agree with all of that.

    At the same time.............if a kid has a chance to go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton (HYP) it would take a lot of courage to say the extra $150,000 or so cost would not be worth it.

    I do not have any scientific proof. Just my experience and observation. But I think in a competition for a selective job between two equally-qualified persons, the HYP gets the job over the non-HYP.

    On the other side of the coin, there are so many well-placed HYP alumni who tend to favor fellow HYPers, that lots of selective jobs don't truly get out into the open marketplace.

    I think the HYP advantage that I perceive encompasses the other five Ivies, but to a slightly lesser degree.

    So again, if Jonkras Jr has Ivy academic credentials, his family is wealthy enough not to qualify for Ivy need-based financial aid, he is a middling 3-star................and his choice is between Ivy/club tennis or a D-III school with an average DIII tennis program...........I would go for the Ivy every time, unless his dream or ambition is to play mid-DIII tennis.
     
  29. tball2day

    tball2day Semi-Pro

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    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  30. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    Another thing that might be a factor whether you would want to spend $200,000 for an undergrad degree is a child's career plan. For example, if he/she wants to be a doctor, lawyer, vet, pharmacist, etc., there is another 3-4 years of paying tuition.
    Adding another $100,000-200,000??... Something to keep in mind.

    For paying families, exploring many possible options/combinations of athletic/academic/merit scholarship vs out-of-pocket pay for those degrees is advisable.
    Weighing academic load and college tennis commitment at DI, II, III vs club tennis?
    Parents and child can then make an informed decision together on what might work out best.

    I have one in college and one going soon....I can see the OP's dilemma.
     
  31. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    JONKRAS,

    Try contacting "thepastord" via email. He used to post regularly in junior forum till this spring.
    He noted his daughter going this year full ride with academic/merit scholarship at a great, I believe, DIII school. He explored tennis scholarships but they decided "not to pursue or be own" by the team.
    Search for his post, click on his username and you can contact him via email.
    He offered it before.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  32. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Lots of these schools give merit aid. You should call the admisisons offices and inquire.

    I think the strategy has to be to apply broadly to top DIII and mid DIII and some Ivy league schools and then compare packages.

    Also apply for outside scholarships.

    Doing all of these things will maximize your chances of getting a very good fa/scholarship package.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  33. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Saying a school is recruiting you in our case means the coach called, emailed and specifically said they wanted to recruit her and also paid for college visits in many cases.

    I doubt you have any idea where my daughter is attending next year as I never posted it. You must be confused as she is a senior now and isn't anywhere yet.

    But I can tell you specifically she was recruited at both MIT and Caltech and those coaches offered to support her application. She decided not to apply to either as she does not want to be an engineer. I'm not saying she was a lock for admissions, but I am saying that with the support of the coach, she certainly would have a leg up that regular applicants would not have. Every bit helps.

    The coaches were very excited about her because she is a great student and a good tennis player. They cannot recruit a 5 star player who has a 3.0 GPA, but they would very much want a 3 star player with a 4.0 GPA.

    My daughter will attending one of the best colleges in the country next year.

    I don't know what you are debating because of course the kid should figure out what school he wants. Who would suggest otherwise?

    My point is simply that top DIII schools* are looking for GREAT students who are also good tennis players. To be both, is a HUGE advantage in the admissions process.

    *By "top DIII schools" I mean top academically. They may not have the most competitive teams.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  34. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    I agree.


    .....
     
  35. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Kids with 4.0 GPAs.....and SAT/ACT to match.....don't need sports to get into top DIII schools such as Oberlin. Any coach who claims some credit for getting a candidate like that accepted is blowing a little smoke in my estimation.

    Where sports may help in the admissions process at some DIIIs is for students with 3.0 GPAs and 75 percentile test results.
     
  36. mmk

    mmk Professional

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    Well, maybe. My daughter got into MIT with all the right numbers, but her classmates with similar numbers who also applied did not. In the case of one guy his father went to MIT (but MIT doesn't take legacy into account), and his SATs were actually a bit better (high 2300s vs low 2300s, slightly better SAT II scores). But, she had drawn the attention of the field hockey and lacrosse coaches, and that helped. We have a friend with a family member in the admissions office at an Ivy, and evidently at some point, with the high number of qualified kids applying, they take the pile of non-standout applications and start going IN-OUT-IN-OUT. Having something extra like tennis or some other sport, with a coach asking the admissions office about your application, helps you stand out.
     
  37. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    I agree with you as it applies to the Ivies and the MITs of the world. But Oberlin? A fine school, but 4.0 GPA and commensurate tests should get a kid in there easy even without a sport, I think
     
  38. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    I was using state school as a synonym for public school. Chico State et al. are not in the league of Cal-Berkeley, Virginia, Michigan et al. The study I cited does not extrapolate down to someone passing up the second tier school in favor of Chico State. There could very well be an earnings differential ten years down the road in that case.
     
  39. Soianka

    Soianka Hall of Fame

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    Yes. Our valedictorian applied to 7 schools and only got into 2. He will end up at the University of Georgia.

    While some of our student athletes are going to Yale, UPenn, top DIII and other great schools.

    Colleges admissions is tougher than ever. Any little leg up you can get is great.
     
  40. Avles

    Avles Hall of Fame

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    I'm not so sure about that-- I see some red dots near the upper right hand corner of this graph:

    http://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-959-Oberlin-College_analytics.html

    Certainly seems possible that some of those red dots would be blue if they were 3 star tennis recruits.

    (MIT of course is a totally different story:
    http://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-762-Massachusetts-Institute-of-Technology_analytics.html)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  41. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    You are right. Four kids with the criteria I suggested got rejected by Oberlin.

    According to TRN, the men's team recruited one zero-star this year. The women's team recruited one 2-star and one 1-star.

    Maybe a little tennis would have helped those four rejected kids!
     
  42. ClarkC

    ClarkC Hall of Fame

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    More likely, they did not recruit him. When he is admitted to Oberlin, he can change his TRN page to say he committed to Oberlin, even if the coach has never heard of him.
     
  43. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Yes. Good clarification........and one we should all keep in mind when assessing TRN data!
     
  44. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    Could you post a link to this study? I would like to see it.
     
  45. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    Mitch -- I'm with you. Do you have any suggestions?
     
  46. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    Misterbill -- I actually agree with you on this. It might be worth it if you can get into HYP. But HYP is a total crapshoot. The accept rate is about 7% and EVERYONE who applies is very smart. The only way he gets into HYP is if he is a recruited athlete, and he is not at that level.
     
  47. jonkras

    jonkras New User

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    100% right. Many people go on to graduate school these days. My S says he wants to be a lawyer. Sticker price for undergrad and law school could be as high as $240K + $180K or $420K. That's a lot of money!
     
  48. 10ismom

    10ismom Semi-Pro

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    I agreed. Even we started saving their 529 plans since they were little, still would not cover 2 pricey degrees. I told them they could splurge on one, undergrad or postgrad. It worked for my older one....she got academic scholarships at our great State D I University that cover almost everything. She's not that into tennis...just plays club tennis. Ivy league law or other postgrad degree at a prestigious high price tag school will be covered. My younger one is more into tennis and is a work in progress. Definitely will get a postgrad degree as well.

    If your pre-tax educational portfolio has not grown to cover the high price tag for your son's college education, you actually will have to slice the money from your taxable income.....which means a cost to you is even more.

    Keep exploring options.....you and your son will find a right solution.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2012
  49. treeman10

    treeman10 Semi-Pro

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    ...........................
     
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  50. klu375

    klu375 Semi-Pro

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    It would be very good if this thread could stay on topic because this is a very important issue for many tennis players. You have a great student who is also good/very good at tennis but you are middle class and probably not eligible for finaid. So what do you do? Forget about not texting during OV at Emory if you cannot afford Emory.
     

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