Where should the stronger partner play Ad or Deuce?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by paulmaben, Apr 25, 2010.

  1. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I think the above statement is telling, and appreciate your honesty about often being the least skilled in you outings.
    Maybe your blanket statements about how doubles is played contributes to your situation. As a player who usually the top doubles player on the court, including playing with very high level players, I also agree that it is about tactical tennis; but your ideas on it seem very narrow.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    #51
  2. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Can you explain what you mean by straight over your head?
    Do you mean you have to hustle to get under it?
    You think you can get under a ball in any corner,
    from any place on the court equally?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    #52
  3. Caesar

    Caesar Banned

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    I didn't say I'm the worst doubles player on the court, I said I'm often the least skilled player.

    I find it hard to believe that you're a high level doubles player and don't understand the importance of the high ground and angles. All good doubles teams are looking to close to the net offensively on the majority of points. That's not to say that they never play from the back of the court, but it's the exception rather than the rule.
     
    #53
  4. martini1

    martini1 Hall of Fame

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    I agree the better player should play on the AD court, doesn't matter if he/she is righty or not.

    Righty on the AD court can hit more fh or volley in the middle area. I/O is there if needed. I guess on rec level dhl bh to pass the net guy is not a high percentage shot.
     
    #54
  5. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    See here you go assuming things again.
    I didn't say worst dubs player, but only repeated your exact words,
    and I never said I didn't appreciate high ground or angles.

    But you did say you didn't understand that some positions are
    better for covering the court to get overheads and you seemed
    to not be able to make use of the IO Fh when playing dubs.
    I guess you always beat your opponents to net? They must be weak
    if you always have the high ground?

    I never said how to play, but only stated that the ad side allowed me
    to impose my overhead easier along with more opportunities to hit my IO Fh
    in some situations.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    #55
  6. Caesar

    Caesar Banned

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    No. But what's the relevance of this? Do you think that lobs naturally land on one corner more frequently than the other?

    I still don't know what you're on about with the overheads.

    I can make use of the IO forehand, when the opportunity arises. I'm just pointing out that good doubles players will use angles specifically to negate their opponents' ability to play inside groundstrokes, therefore placing your strong stroke on the inside of the court reduces its effectiveness. Watch the top players play doubles, and count how many times they are able to use inside shots vs outside shots.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    #56
  7. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    No, that's why I cover both corners.
     
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  8. Caesar

    Caesar Banned

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    If lobs don't have a propensity to land on one side of the court, and you're covering all lobs, why does it matter which side you're on?
     
    #58
  9. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I see you don't get it about the overheads.

    I may not get to hit the IO too often, but you don't get to hit it at all from the deuce side do you?
    On the deuce side, You get the IO Bh some though.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    #59
  10. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    back to the point, BECAUSE it is easier from the Ad side.
    But I realize you don't get it,
    No problem.
     
    #60
  11. Caesar

    Caesar Banned

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    No, but that infrequent opportunity seems to be a pretty small payoff in exchange for having your best hitting side neutralised for the vast majority of points.

    How is it easier from the ad side?

    If lobs don't have a propensity to land on a particular side of the court, then a net player who takes all lobs will have to cover the same distance to do so regardless of whether he plays ad court or deuce court.

    An overhead is hit from basically above your head, so there is no real positioning advantage to coming at it from the left or the right.

    Where's the advantage?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    #61
  12. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    From the ad side you can get to more overheads (cover more court area
    that gets lobbed) primarily b/c it's easier to move to your right (that's the
    way our knees are built!) to cover lobs going to your partners backhand side
    on the deuce side.
    From the deuce side it's harder to run over and hit an overhead on a lob
    over your ad side partner.

    If you're playing a team that lobs a lot or has good lobs and one of you
    can cover more court area and lobs to all parts of the court and hit
    overheads/volleys, then that player should play the ad side in order
    to prevent losing the net position once you're there.

    My inside out BH sucks, so I don't like playing the deuce side.
     
    #62
  13. Caesar

    Caesar Banned

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    That's the explanation I was looking for.

    Surprised to hear that it's easier to move to your right than your left. I can't say I've ever noticed a difference.
     
    #63
  14. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    It's not a matter of moving left or right. It's that you eventually have to
    orient your body so that your right shoulder is toward the baseline
    (and left facing the net) in order to hit an overhead.
    Plus, you can run faster going forward vs backpedaling or any kind of cross
    step. If this were not true, then you'd see people doing crossover steps
    or backpedaling or some other weird movement patterns for the Olympic 100m sprints.

    Maybe this example will make it more clear. Actually my example only
    holds true assuming both players are right handed. So assuming that,
    look at the following cases where you are the one hitting the overhead and
    the ball is lobbed over your partner.

    1) you are on the ad side. To cover the lob over your partner on the deuce
    side you go from facing the net to turning 90 or more degrees and
    running to cover to hit an overhead.

    2) you are on the deuce side and your ad side partner is lobbed. The
    fastest way to move is to turn 90 or more degrees to your left and
    run to the ad side, but the problem is that you are right handed and to
    orient your body to be in position to hit an overhead, you either have
    to further turn to your left until you are facing the right side fence
    or twist back to your right to hit an overhead. In both cases it is much
    more difficult.

    Try the two above examples. If you're reasonably fast, you'll find that
    if you play the ad side, you can actually hit almost all the overheads
    for your team if your partner chooses to defer overheads to you.
    This happens in mixed beach volleyball also. If the guy has a much
    better spike, then the team will try to have the guy take the first
    ball as much as possible so that the girl can set for him.

    When running backwards and to the side, overheads are the ideal shot
    to hit b/c you get more leverage and can still hit an offensive shot.
    If you can't hit an overhead, then hit a backhand overhead. Next choice
    would be a regular volley or swinging volley. Last option is to let it bounce.
    (unless it is a sky high overhead, which in this case, you can let it bounce
    b/c you can still hit an overhead after it bounces.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2011
    #64
  15. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Again, faulty assumption.
    I never said what my best hitting side was.
    I only stated that I liked being able to hit my IO Fh when I can.

    And if you don't get the difference in going far to your back and left for a righty overhead, thats on you. clearly we can't get you to see it.
    Maybe next time at the courts you will if you can open your mind.
    Most Any righty would prefer to move back and right over back and left for a deep overhead.
     
    #65
  16. Caesar

    Caesar Banned

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    Best hitting side for reach etc.

    Basically, I think the advantage (if any) is incredibly negligible. It means a little bit more adjustment when you get to the ball, but since you're hitting it right over your head anyway then it's pretty immaterial. Certainly it has never bothered me.

    Basically it seems that you choose your positioning to obtain some small advantages and ignore a host of other bigger ones.
     
    #66
  17. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    The difference in potential court area you can cover is not negligible, but
    I'd say that up to about 4.0 or 4.5 it doesn't make as much of a difference,
    but only b/c you usually don't see the level of athleticism/skill/teamwork
    necessary for this to happen:
    1) immediately recognize the offensive lob going over deuce side partner
    and call him/her off.
    2) run/sprint over to cover lob.
    3) partner either switches to ad side or ducks down (if there is no time)
    4) ad side player hits an overhead on the move, jumping if necessary.

    Usually, at least one of the above 4 things don't/can't happen.
     
    #67
  18. 10sLifer

    10sLifer New User

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    Great question. The stronger player should play the deuce side. They will take more returns and have the tuffer inside out return. Who knows why the deuce side will take more returns the second most important shot over the course of a doubles match. Sorry if it's already been talked about.
     
    #68
  19. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    So what are the big ones you say I'm ignoring?
     
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  20. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    These are your big points that I ignore?
    No, dubs is not about angles, but is mostly about hitting out/down, to make them hit up or lift their shots. Angles can be nice, but are mostly negated by getting to net and working the middle like a boxer working the body to set up, which also relieves pressure from the groundstrokes, especially the outside ones. Middle will work even better against players like you who put the stronger strokes to outside, leaving both weaker wings easy to attack with less risk. Angles are good to finish once the mistake has been made. Middle of the court is death for the ones receiving it, as you have them dealing with who handles it and cuts down on the angles. They are left to lift your dipping middle shot for you to attack.

    No wonder you think angles are so important if you are often attacking their outside strokes, as this is what opens up those angles on you. Working angles prematurely is a flashy/risky way to play, but not a % way. Why do you think the best dubs serves are down the middle and into the body? If you can't do some big damage out wide, you better not serve out there; same for strokes. Cause it opens up your angles.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2011
    #70
  21. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I can see this point of view, but only if the best player can do just as much from the deuce side and the partner can hold his own in the ad side. IMO the better player can impose more from the ad side if he has to make up for his opponent to some degree.
     
    #71
  22. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    In my experience playing doubles, there are generally two scenarios where side will make a difference in the outcome.

    Assuming two right-handed players, in general..

    Scenario1 is a stronger player paired with a weaker player. In this situation, the weaker player should play the side they are most comfortable on. The stronger plays the opposite. A strong doubles player should be able to play both sides well.

    Scenario 2 is two strong players paired together. In this situation, the player with the strongest inside out FH should play the ad court. However, If both IOFH's are equal (which is rare), the strongest BH should play the deuce court.
     
    #72
  23. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Both good points IMO.
     
    #73
  24. Mahboob Khan

    Mahboob Khan Hall of Fame

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    You have answered your own question.

    The stronger partner should play the ad side for the reasons you just stated.
     
    #74
  25. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    I once played with a mixed doubles partner who thought she was really good but couldn't return serves and was very inconsistent. She insisted on playing Ad and I deferred to her as she was more experienced (just not very good).

    So if games got to deuce on opponent's serve I could usually win the deuce point as the opponents were't very good and had weak, floaty, dink serves. My partner would promptly lose the ad-in point...back to deuce...rince and repeat many, many times. It was awful and got worse as she got more nervous about messing up.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2011
    #75
  26. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    Personally opinion..I would rather protect a person's bh...so in other words have the person with the better bh play the Deuce side. If both of the bhs are similar..then yes the person with the better IOFh would play ad.
     
    #76
  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, this could well be more important than who has the better IOFh, but both are factors.
     
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  28. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Forget stronger or weaker.
    Forget forehand or backhand.
    The ONLY thing that is important in choosing sides is ..can that player return serve and play that side consistently well?;
    And duece needs consistency, while ad may take chances.
     
    #78
  29. hornfan75

    hornfan75 New User

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    I tend to agree that the return of serve is key. With club level players I think most people are much better at volleying with their FH rather than their BH. I see a lot more poaching on the deuce return than the ad. I think you need a deuce player than can get a solid cross-court return with the ability to go down the line when the net man jumps to poach too soon. I find the inside out FH on the ad side to be an easy return since you have a much better angle to pass the net player. After the serve there's just so many variables that I think it comes down to getting a pair of players that play well together and compliment each others' play style. Two great players do not always make for a great doubles team.
     
    #79
  30. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Doubles class in session

    Good Dubs article in tennis mag this month on doubles, which explains how important the crosscourt shot is in all levels of dubs, along with the importance of consistent play. It even mentions about avoiding threading it the down the line for winners and heavy angles. Talks of targeting the center T and working the middle early in the point and how this is how the greats in dubs have been charted to play the game; even on the big points. The ideas is to force the other team to into taking the risks of DTL and heavy angles and let them make the early, silly mistakes.
     
    #80
  31. olliess

    olliess Semi-Pro

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    I've heard the advice, assuming both players are competent right-handers, to put the more consistent returner on the deuce side and the streakier returner on the ad side. The thinking is to get more points in play in even situations, while going for more aggressive play on break point opportunities. Anyone else heard this one?
     
    #81
  32. olliess

    olliess Semi-Pro

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    There are good reasons for sending one down the line though... to keep the other team honest when they start cheating to cover your bread-and-butter play crosscourt/up the center.
     
    #82
  33. Rui

    Rui Semi-Pro

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    That means the other team has left itself vulnerable to a DTL. So, you're taking advantage of the opportunity, not keeping them honest. The result should be the same, though.
     
    #83

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