Which knot is the best knot for tie off

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by Irvin, Aug 26, 2010.

?

Which is the best tie off knot

  1. Wilson or Pro knot

    17 vote(s)
    22.7%
  2. Parnell knot

    53 vote(s)
    70.7%
  3. Overhand knot

    5 vote(s)
    6.7%
  1. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
    #1
  2. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,887
    I use the Parnell knot, because I base my tie-off technique on a video of Parnell showing how he ties off.

    I have no idea what a Wilson or Pro knot is. Your video seems to suggest they are only slight variants on the same knot.

    I've come to the conclusion that almost any knot will sufficiently tie off most poly string. Some of the poly is so stiff that you could probably pull it through the final grommet, kink it and cut it off, and it wouldn't pull back through.
     
    #2
  3. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ What I was trying to show was all those knots are the same. The overhand knot starts with a half hitch and so does the double half hitch. Most of the double half hitch knots I see are all held by the first half hitch. Therefore, I can see where you are coming from when you say almost any knot will do (for poly or any other string.) Wikipedia.org says, "The overhand knot is one of the most fundamental knots... The overhand knot is very secure, to the point of jamming badly. It should be used if the knot is intended to be permanent."

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2010
    #3
  4. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,887
    I saw your video and it certainly seems all three are the same knot (overhand knot), but there does seem to be a slight difference as to where the tail end goes in relationship to the grommet and frame.

    Parnell pulls on the first half half-hitch when taking slack out of string and then cinches the knot down all the way by pulling the tail end tight. Can you still do that easily with the Wilson knot and the Pro knot?

    I think pulling out the slack the way Parnell does is risky if you are dealing with gut or other string that isn't very tough, so I don't tend to use the Parnell (overhand) when stringing gut or synthetic gut.
     
    #4
  5. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ I completely agree with you. All are the same knot there is no doubt about it. For the Wilson or Pro knot the tail is above the string you are tying off on while on the Parnell knot the tail is below the string you are typing off on. For all these knots when you cinch them up you pull the loop down the string and then while keeping tension on the half hitch you roll it back up. Then you pull the tail up to keep it tight and up against the frame.

    The problem with the overhand knot when you tighten it up is that it is too good of a knot and you don't want to tighten it up 1/2 inch away from the grommet. So you have to tighten it up in two separate pulls. In tennis stringing terms we call that tightening two-step process the loop and the tail.

    Irvin
     
    #5
  6. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Following that process a little further today I was playing aroung with different knots. I found the bowline knot and tied it just to see if it would be useful. Wow did I get a surprise it tied up like a Parnell.

    Seems like the biggest difference on a lot of knots is not really how to tie it but how you tighten it. I have seen some videos on how to tie a Parnell knot but none of them is the simple way.

    Irvin
     
    #6
  7. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    Interesting video.

    However, this is not how I complete what is referred to as the Parnell Knot.

    It is however, what is referred to as a Wilson/Pro Knot, which I was taught to call a one and a half hitch.
     
    #7
  8. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ I did not complete the knot I just showed you what the knot really is. Like I said earlier I think the tail on the Wilson Pro knot is above the tie off string while on the Parnell knot it is below it.

    Irvin
     
    #8
  9. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^Yeah, I saw that, but when I complete a Parnell, the "tail" loops around both the loop string and base string. In the video you provide (overhand knot), you only loop the tail on the loop, not both. Hard to desribe so you get a mental picture of what I'm talking about.

    <<<PS: I'm getting an Ice Cream Headache with all these different names>>>> :)
     
    #9
  10. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ Watch that video again, @ 13 seconds I loop the tail under the base string.

    Irvin
     
    #10
  11. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^^Then that wouldn't be the way I complete what is referred to as a pro/wilson/one and a half hitch knot.

    I do not complete the Wilson/Pro/One and a Half, the same as a Parnell.

    But anyway, it is a very interesting video on the "different knots" and how they are primarily the same.
     
    #11
  12. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^Irvin, if you go to the end of this video, I demonstrate how I complete a Pro/Wilson/One and a Half knot.

    For the Parnell, I go back under the anchor string a second time, and then bring it up thru the loop, which I don't do in this knot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDwAnjSYcxQ

    the end result is that the knot is not as thick as the parnell, and works much better in tighter spaces (especially for racquets such as Babolats where the cross and main are very close to the frame).
     
    #12
  13. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ From what I see you tie the Wilson Pro knot the same and I do and from what you are saying you tie the Parnell knot the same as I do. There is no difference. Where the difference come in is you use cam action pliers to tighten and hold your string. I pull the loop down the anchor string then I roll the loop back up to tighten the half hitch. This does the same thing you did pulling on the string with the cam action pliers and putting your awl in the grommet hole. Then we both pull the tail back up and against the frame.

    I really like the way you tighten the tie off string with the clamp but I am not too sure about putting the awl in there. I do not like using an awl once I starting stringing. I am not too sure how much good the slippery awl is holding tension anyway.

    Playing with these knots I have come up with a new starting knot. I need to do some experimenting and if it works out I will share it.

    Irvin
     
    #13
  14. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^Yeah, I don't advocate using the "awl method", because it is a very old procedure that was mostly used with wood frames to hold down the tension of the string one just pulled with the cam action.

    However, a lot of poster kept asking me about this procedure, and doing the video was easier than explaining it.

    They also kept asking how to use the cam action.
     
    #14
  15. uk_skippy

    uk_skippy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    2,058
    Location:
    Waterlooville, Hampshire, UK
    I generally use the Parnell knot, but I do use the Pro knot where the space to tie-off is small.

    Regards
     
    #15
  16. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ Yes even though the two knots are effectively the same knot because that tail goes under the anchor string it does make a knot a little bulkier.

    Irvin
     
    #16
  17. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^The manner in which I complete a Pro knot/Wilson/One and a half, does not have the tail go under the anchor string, rather goes directly thru the loop.

    I the Parnell, the tail does go under the anchor string, and then into the loop.

    I think this is where we are getting mixed up.
     
    #17
  18. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    I beg you pardon? We are getting mixed up? LOL Sorry I had to say that. We are saying the same thing.

    Here is a Wilson Pro knot:
    [​IMG]
    Notice how the tail (which goes to the right) goes over the anchor string?

    Here is a Parnel knot:
    [​IMG]
    Notice how the tail (which goes to the right) goes under the anchor string?

    Irvin
     
    #18
  19. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    ^^^I'll do a video tonight showing you how I do both.

    Again, the manner in which I do a parnell, and wilson/pro/one and a half ,,,,,,,, are not the same, and result in different knots. One is bulkier than the other. One has the tail go under and wrap around the anchor string, the other does not.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
    #19
  20. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ You are 100% correct. I still agree with you. We have not disagreed yet. You just think we do. I think the problem is these two knots. It is sort of like the same thing only different. Like I said an overhand knot by any other name is still an overhand knot.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
    #20
  21. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    I think both your knots are similar but not the same as the Parnell knot as I learned it from YuLitle's video. The only difference between the 2 pictures is going over or under the anchor string, in both, the tail finishes pointing across the anchor string.

    The "Parnell" know in YuLitle's video shows the tail finishes point back towards the starting side. This knot is the 2 half hitch but with the tail going through the first loop after doing the second O-U-T.

    Or you can look at it this way. It's the same as the Pro Knot going over the anchor but you wrap the tail back under the anchor.

    [​IMG]
     
    #21
  22. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    I am assuming your anchor string is the top string that goes from left to right and the string you are tying off is the bottom string that comes in from the left. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    So you went over under through (for you half hitch) then you went over through and under. How is that like what YULitle said in his video? YULitle said, "you go over under through and then just like the double half hitch you want to pull it tight but not before you go (over) under and through again."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUFjDax7xK4

    And this knot is easy?

    Irvin
     
    #22
  23. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Messages:
    3,164
    which knot is best for minimizing tension loss from the
    last pull?

    in other words, which knot is easiest to reduce the slack and
    pull tight (especially for a stiff string like poly)
     
    #23
  24. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida

    Sorry, I hadn't responded yet. Been busy, and wasn't able to do the vid. But I am aware that we don't disagree. I have not disagreed with your conclusion. As you just said, "same thing only different". What makes it different is where the tails goes thru in the knot and looping around the anchor string in the parnell, vs the others. If one takes the anchor string out of the equation, the knot is exactly the same in the 3.
     
    #24
  25. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ Glad to see we agree that you and I are so agreeable. LOL I could not agree with you more. Actually the two knots are the same it is just where and how the anchor string goes through the knot that makes a difference.

    'onehandbh' as for which knot is the best for minimixing tension loss. If there is no difference in the knot what makes you think either will give you less tension loss. I will agree that the Parnell knot is bulkier but I don't think it holds any better. The one that works the best in your application and or is easier for you to tie is the best knot. If you have a large grommet hole and or you have a thin string go with the Parnell.

    Irvin
     
    #25
  26. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    No.. you go over under through and over under and through again through the loop of the first half hitch. It looks like you go over through and under but it's the same. As Drakulie said, the knots are the same except for where the tail goes: over or under or around the anchor.

    When the knots are loose, they look very similar. When cinched up, they have very different appearances. With the knot I know as the Parnell, the tail is pulled flush against the frame as the tail is pulled through the first half hitch loop and come out back towards the frame with no string in between . In both other versions of the Pro/Wilson knot, the tail is close to the frame but not tight against it there is a string between the frame and the tail. With a regular 2 half hitch knot, the tail is the farthest from the frame as there are 2 strings between the tail and the frame.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2010
    #26
  27. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Yes.. but you went over, under, through, and over, through, under, and through again. Some how that does not seem the same.

    Irvin
     
    #27
  28. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2008
    Messages:
    20,195
    Location:
    On my iPhone
    Oh man..I am confused now. The Parnell knot is not Over- Under- Through-Under-Through?

    I tied off some poly like that last night and it looked good.

    Should I instead go Over-Under-Through-Over-Under-Through?
     
    #28
  29. jim e

    jim e Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2007
    Messages:
    4,387
    If you want the so called Parnell knot it is over under through, and over under through. Just watch YULitles video, as he shows that one the way it is nice.I have used that knot since the 60's.
    For the OP question the best tie off is a knot that holds well, irregardless of the one used.
     
    #29
  30. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ I agree with you 'jim e' but that knot that 'topanlego' posted of picture of is not a Parnell knot. Wow did I open up a can of worms.

    Irvin
     
    #30
  31. athiker

    athiker Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,656
    Once I saw the Pro Knot (Drak's video I think), and tried it, its all I use now for tie-offs. For me, even though it is similar to the Parnell, I found it easier to pull tight and keep tension loss minimal. Plus being pretty new to stringing, I found it just plain easier to remember!

    What I'm getting from Irvin's comments is that really the initial half hitch or overhand is what keeps the string from sliding back through the grommet hole...what you do with the tail after that is just kind of tucking it away somewhere so no string slips in the first half hitch...and it doesn't take much to keep this from happening so any knot "ending" so-to-speak with the tail will usually work fine. Is that the gist?
     
    #31
  32. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    It is. when the knot is loose that's how it looks depending on how big or small or where the string overlaps. Imagine the tail in the picture pulled towards the right, it will have gone over under and through the first half hitch.
     
    #32
  33. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    I think so. All knots hold just as well. However, the "Parnell" knot allows the tail to be right against the frame and the 2 hoops are stacked neatly so it just looks better. It's an appearance thing.
     
    #33
  34. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Watch the 'YULitle' video again. After tying his half hitch he goes under the anchor string (where you go over) and the tail comes up through the loop. Your knot then goes through a loop, under the anchor string, and up through another loop. If this knot works for you great, but it is not the Parnell knot.

    Irvin
     
    #34
  35. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    What I have there is exactly how YuLitle does in his video.

    YuLitle's video says start with a single hitch over Under Through. Then before you cinch up, you go [Over] Under and Through the same hole you went through on the first time.

    That's what I have done. He doesn't say 'Over' again but you can clearly see he goes back OVER under and through. In essence it is a two half hitch but the tail comes up through the first hitch, not between the two.

    Here's an illustration between the 2 photos you posted and my knot:

    [​IMG]

    And flipped:
    [​IMG]
     
    #35
  36. Applesauceman

    Applesauceman Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
    Messages:
    657
    Location:
    Western Michigan
    I'm surprised that you didn't add the double half hitch option too. I use that I all of my finishing knots.
     
    #36
  37. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    'topangelo' I am empressed that is a very good illistration of knots. If you take 'YULitle's' Parnell knot and pull the string that came in from the grommet up what do you have? I have done it for you in this video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wlSLBRnk1Y

    Like 'drakulie' and I have been saying it is all in how you tighten it. But there is another small problem with the Parnell knot. If you come up the second time on the wrong side of the first looped string you don't have the right knot.

    Which one of the diagrams you drew represents the picture you posted? It looks to me like you just tied a Wilson knot and as an after thought stuck the tail under the anchor string.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
    #37
  38. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    There is nothing wrong with that, if the double half hitch is tied properly. The problem with the double half hitch is that most people don't tie it properly and you end up with a half hitch and a loop.

    The overhand knot on the other hand is (IMHO) a better tie off knot. Sailors and climbers consider the overhand knot to be a usless knot because it jams. That means when you put the knot under pressure it is almost impossible to get out of your rope. It jams so badly that the sailors and climbers sometimes had to throw their ropes away.

    For a tie off knot in the tennis application a knot that jams is just what you want. You don't want a semipermanent knot you want a strong knot that will jam. The problem is the overhand knot is a weak knot but until someone comes along with something better it will do.

    99% of the pressure is on the first half hitch of double half hitch, therefore, it is difficult to get the complete knot to jam.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
    #38
  39. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2009
    Messages:
    998
    with all due respect to other more experienced stringers I'm with topanlego on this topic. His picture in post #21 is the Parnell Knot - at least as per YuLitle video. It is also consistent with the description here:
    http://www.keohi.com/tennis/misc/knots.htm#Pro Knot / Richard Parnell Knot / Half Hitch Knot with a Tail
    This is illustrated in his drawings (post #35) - the two rightmost drawings.
    As far as OP's video - it seems that is not a Parnell Knot after all. Which would mean that Parnell knot is not just an overhand knot.
     
    #39
  40. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    OK I have to admit that 'topanlego's' picture is the Parnell knot if you slide that tail up away from the grommet hole towards the knot. I do not use the Parnell knot very much but when I do use it I tie it from above the grommet hole as an overhand knot. Below is what I think we all agree is the Parnell knot the pencil would represent the anchor string with the point pointing towards the grommet hole.

    [​IMG]

    In that picture the string that is being tied off is coming up from the bottom left between the tail and the pencil. If you were to take that string and move it up here is what you would have:

    [​IMG]

    If that knot is not an overhand knot what kind of knot would you say it is? When I tighten this knot the loop is the top loop as you are looking at it and the tail is going down to the left.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
    #40
  41. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,277
    Location:
    Western North Carolina
    ^^^^Irvin,

    yep. but it is an entirely different direction of pull on the knot when you do that (also no grommet as a stopper), changing the characteristics of the holding power of the knot. but still, essentially (exactly) the same "knot".

    as a former sailor and climber, yes knots used in those disciplines are rarely meant to be permanent. this is a different animal.
     
    #41
  42. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ When I use the Parnell knot I do not tighten as you see it. I first tighten the half hitch (just as "YULitle" does) then I pull the tail through snug. When I first started trying to use the Parnell I found that I would sometimes go through the wrong loop at the end and ended up with knot that looked funny. Problem was how I was tying it. So I started tying it from above and solved the problem. If there is no overhand knot it is not right. Look at 'topanlego' knot, if you look at it you will see the overhand knot.

    I bet if you follow this thread to the end you will understand these knots.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
    #42
  43. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,277
    Location:
    Western North Carolina
    i understand fully. direction of pull is key in making these overhand knots work.
    yes, they are overhand knots.

    good stuff.
     
    #43
  44. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2009
    Messages:
    998
    OMG - yes indeed, the Parnell Knot is the overhand knot --if-- you pull the tail certain way. In other words Parnell Knot is the overhand knot + particular way of weaving of the tail. Perhaps the main practical difference is that with Parnell you can cinch the knot. If you wanted to tie overhand knot only (without looping the tail that certain way) it would be very difficult to cinch the knot against the frame -- even if you wanted to loop the tail later.
    But now I think Irvin is right after all - these knots do stem from the overhand knot.
     
    #44
  45. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    I believe your perspective is flawed.

    In the 2nd picture the knot would be Over-Under-Over-Under-Through as the string being tied off is coming from the top now. Also, since there is no half hitch, it would be very hard to cinch it up. Rocking motion is impossible on this knot as the tail goes around instead of through.

    If you tighten the 2nd knot, the tail is gong down to left. But if you do that in the racquet, it would point into the string bed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
    #45
  46. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    ^^ Thanks. I think most of the confusion stems from the video I made in the first post. Actually I am tying the Parnell upside down in that video. Sorry about that.

    Irvin
     
    #46
  47. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Messages:
    12,278
    Location:
    Marietta, Ga
    Sorry I missed this post at first. The two pictures are of the same knot. If one is right they are both right. The pencil is pointing towards the grommet so the tail is pointing to the frame. We are not going to start talking about starting knots are we? LOL

    Also I can move the string up so you see the overhand knot but that string coming in from the top is actually just a big loop and would have came out of the grommet hole.

    Irvin
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
    #47
  48. struggle

    struggle Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2010
    Messages:
    4,277
    Location:
    Western North Carolina
    nope, there is no figure 8 there.
     
    #48
  49. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    No. The Parnell knot becomes a overhand knot if the knot was rearranged with tails were at opposite end of the knot which is not the case when tying off on a racquet. If you did that, you would end up with an overhand knot that would be impossible to cinch up.

    A Basic half hitch/2 half hitch are non-binding knots where as an overhand knot is a binding knot. Meaning if you removed the anchor string, the knot would fall apart.

    I guess you can say there are 2 types of tieoff knots: Binding and Non-Binding.
     
    #49
  50. topanlego

    topanlego Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Vancity
    But in your 2nd picture, where is the tail? the ends point in opposite directions so really, it's a different knot no?
     
    #50

Share This Page