Which retail Wilson Tour 90 is closest to FEDERER's actual racquet?

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by Rexking, Apr 6, 2010.

  1. cy1126dragonamul

    cy1126dragonamul New User

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    nate ferguson of Priority 1 said that federer's racket is the same mode as the retail version.
    no one knows for sure if federer's racket is ncode, karophite black, kevlar & graphite etc........
    I'm pretty sure he's using the old prostaff technology painted in BLX paintjob.
    and is it that important to know what material is under his paint job????
    it's graphite!!! that's all you need to know
     
  2. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Nate Ferguson didn't just say that Federer's K90 is the same mold as the retail version, he said that IT IS the same racquet as the retail version (with some lead added under the bumper guard).

    BTW, there's no such thing as "Karophite Black". That's just a marketing name that Wilson made up at the last minute for graphite to make plain old graphite sound like new technology and sexier.
     
  3. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    You may not be that familiar with how the racquet business works, but you're making a few very dangerous (and incorrect) assumptions here. The first is that just because someone is a great player and theoretically COULD switch racquets without too much harm, that they would. This doesn't just apply to Federer..it's just a fact that almost all of the pros on the tour switch racquets very rarely, and avoid doing it as much as possible. So your argument about him being "good enough" to pull off a switch just so he could play with the current retail cosmetics is pretty irrelevant. He (and others) CHOOSE not not. Further, the BLX wasn't designed "just for him" as you state twice. In fact, Wilson redesigned the specs on the K (which was the closest thing they sold recently to his spec) in order to make the BLX more friendly for recreational players picking up the stick, by taking some of the weight out of the head. It had nothing to do with Fed, and his specs didn't change proportionately along with it. The BLX was not custom made for him. Period.

    As for betting that a large percentage of pros are using the racquets that their cosmetics imply, I won't challenge this outright, since you didn't state a percentage or hazard a guess as to how many. All I can say is that more top 20 pros use paintjobs than don't. So the argument against them would seem dead in the water, especially if you've spent any time listening to those people on the boards who string for the pros.

    Obviously, the fact that they wear essentially current stock clothing is a ridiculous way to prove that they therefore use current stock racquets. You don't hit the ball with your shorts (at least high level players don't...I can't speak to those at your local club). Pros have used paintjobbed racquets for decades, and it is a well established practice at the pro level. This is why Head and Wilson have signed so many players without actually paying them; because they offer free pro room services that meet the players rigid demands about their frames. Further, the adidas/Nike comment is pointless, since no one is saying that Fed uses another BRAND of racquet, just that he's using a different Wilson than his paintjob would lead you to believe. And yes, in some cases, the pros do get special makeup clothing (although it's somewhat more rare), as you can see in the use of shoes with custom/special tongues or soles, altered length shirts and shorts, etc.

    A more intelligent argument would be, "why on earth would Wilson care what Federer (or any other pro) uses under the paint, as long as he's totally happy with it, and as long as it's indistinguishable to the consumer from the frame they are selling in stores???" If they want him to have a long term contract, they would want him to have a racquet that is happy with, that he wants to use, and not keep switching from (just like pretty much every other pro), and they would want the consumer to think that he's using whatever they're selling. And that is exactly what they currently have. Anything else is irrelevant to either party's cause. In fact, it helps the company if a player is not frequently switching racquets, as he's less likely to become unhappy with his current situation. And no, there's no reason to believe that he was spending many hours testing prototypes. Why would he if he was fine with his racquet? Pros don't do a lot of random playtesting, unless they're looking for a specific change...and again that's not very frequent. So yes, it makes plenty of sense for Wilson to sink millions into a guy who doesn't use (*"refuses" is the wrong word, since it's not like Wilson is actively asking him to switch) their newest rackets because he already has one that is designed for him, and they gain nothing from having him switch. As is, he's one of the greatest players in history, and that is reason enough to sign him and do whatever the heck he wants.

    As for your last contention of support from the idea that Djokovic switched over to Head to use the Speed line which was custom designed for him, it has more holes in it than the cheese of Federer's home country. First of all, the Speed frames were designed and put in the production pipeline before Djokovic even signed with the company. He switched for money, not a new racquet. In fact, the racquet switch did nothing but cause problems for him. Look at the timeline, and you'll see it was impossible for it to have happened as you say. The design of the Speeds had NOTHING to do with Djokovic. Not only did they not design the Speed line for Djokovic, but he's never ever even used one in competition. Take a look at the head shape of his Head racquet and you'll see that it doesn't even come from the same mold as the Speed. It comes from a Radical mold, which makes plenty of sense if you look at his racquet history. These things aren't hard to determine...just search some photos from any of the major photo agencies (you can start with Getty if you don't know where to look), and you'll see that he's not using the egg-shaped Speed mold at all...he's using the a more symmetrically oval Radical shape. After all, Head has one of the most comprehensive pro room programs in the world, so why would the company's top endorser not use it? That's what it's there for. And it's the main reason even lower ranked pros sign with the company.

    Time to do some homework before ranting.
     
  4. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Nice post, LPShanet.
     
  5. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Your post is probably 100% accurate and if it is I hope I don't see you and any of your followers claiming you need a 17 year old Head PT 630 to play your best.
     
  6. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    More madness? Just when did nate ferguson say this? In a youtube video? LOL. Do you think wilson told nateF and ronYU that we are now sending you guys the same racquet that's sold in the stores?.. How do these guys KNOW for sure what it is if they NEVER had any wilson reps visit them? Did wilson put a sticker on feds racquets they sent them that said, ''same as retail k90'' LOL.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2010
  7. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    I have followers??? Whoa, cool! I've always hoped for this day:)
     
  8. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    With leadership comes responsibility.
     
  9. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    If you don't know then that's YOUR problem, isn't it? We know you didn't realize it but there's actually a search function on this message board.

    Besides, if we had to explain to you everything that you don't know or understand, we'd be here for the rest of our natural lives.
     
  10. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    most of those titles were not won with K90, but won while using N90, which was proven to be real. So plz don't troll by putting out obviously false info to flame ppl. after he switched to K90 from N90, his backhand started to go down and became the attack target of various players because it was so error proned. and nadal served 90% of his serves to Federer's backhand because of that.

    With K90, Federer couldn't even beat Nadal in Wimbledon! I'm not saying it's all K90's fault, but Federer certainly did better when he was still using N90. I've definitely noticed an improvement of his BH this year since Ausie open this year after he switched to BLX though. At first I did not link that to the new racquet, but it makes sense now, just give more support that Federer really switched racquet and you guys need to move on!
     
  11. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    Not to be the voice of dissent or anything, but when was there any evidence to suggest that Fed used the actual N90 at any point ever? Maybe I'm unaware of something, but when and by whom was the N90 "proven to be real"? Any information I've ever seen suggested just the opposite, in fact.

    And even if you do make the VERY sketchy assumption that he used some form of N90, what makes you believe there was an actual switch to a different frame after they introduced the K90 at retail?

    I'm not even going to address the "switch" to BLX...

    It's very unusual for any pro, let alone a top player, to switch frames that often, let alone one who's known for liking relatively old-fashioned specs. Or are you just talking about cosmetics and not what's under the paint? As a new user, you may want to use the search function and type in the term "paint job". After the weeks of reading that will produce, get back to us.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2010
  12. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    Just did a count, Federer won 9 titles with N90, 6 with K90, and 1 with BLX. And not to mention Federer's career lows happened when he was using a K90. Coincidence? you decide. I don't know how many of you BLX haters have actually used it for an extended period of time. but I had, and it's a racquet that would really grow on you and make you forget about K90, N90, even PS85 all together.

    If I have to do a comparison, just between K90 and BLX90, I would say nothing beats K90 when it comes to forehand, but BLX90 beats it in every other categories. So over all, BLX90 is a better racquet IMHO
     
  13. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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    man this again, you guys need to do more searches before you flame. basic story, a stringer gotten hold of Federer's racquet and did an in depth comparison between the racquet, N90 and PS85. the conclusion is that it's a customized N90.
     
  14. 2Hare

    2Hare Semi-Pro

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  15. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    LOL. You have quite an imagination there.

    And, no, Federer never used the retail nCode 90. There are about a billion posts on this board that confirm this. Yes, it is a fact. Just check all the pics. Even Wilson admitted that Federer never used the retail nCode 90 when they released the K90 by stating that it was the first time that the public can buy the same racquet that Federer actually uses.
     
  16. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    OMG!!! Federer won ALL 16 of this Grand Slams with the SAME RACQUET - the K90. Just ask him. He hasn't switched racquets since 2003, before he won his very first Grand Slam.

    When he first "switched" to the retail K90 paintjob in January 2007, he won the Aus Open without dropping a set. He then made the French Open final, won both Wimbledon and the US Open. So, yeah, it must be the switch to the K90 that made him play poorly. :???: His play dropped off in 2008 due to his bout with mono and then later a bad back injury. It had NOTHING to do with his racquet! Get real!
     
  17. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Wrong he used an N90 after he got rid of that antiquated Pro Staff and yes he did hit differently with the n90 than the K90. NO ONE hits exactly the same type of ball with different frames.
     
  18. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    No, Federer switched from the Pro Staff 85 to the Pro Staff Tour 90.
    [​IMG]
    Look at the length of the grip. Later on Federer got custom handles and a custom drill pattern that was incorporated in the retail K90 and BLX90. The closest to his layup for retail was supposed to be the K90.
     
  19. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    You have a weak case Ultra2HolyGrail.
     
  20. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Um...that's why he didn't use different frames.

    After the China PS 6.0 85, he went to a PS 6.0 85 with the HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob (see pic below). Then he went to a PS Tour 90 with the same HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob. Then he went to a PS Tour 90 with the retail PS Tour 90 paintjob. Then he went to the K90 with the same PS Tour 90 paintjob. Then he went to the K90 with the nCode 90 paintjob. Then he went to the K90 with the retail K90 paintjob. And AFAIK, he's still using the K90 but with the retail BLX90 paintjob. Thus, he's been using the K90 since 2003!!! That is a fact.

    [​IMG]
     
  21. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    I agree that the above does basically seem to be correct.

    What is really odd though, is that the only time Federer has ever used the longer grip in his career was in Spring of 2003 for a couple of months, when he used the retail PSTour90!

    I wonder why he did this?
     
  22. jimbo333

    jimbo333 Hall of Fame

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    Indeed:)

    But it is strange that he only used the longer grip when he used the retail PSTour90 (As shown above). When he used the PSTour90 with HPS6.0Tour95 paintjob before, and the custom90(K90) with PSTour90 paintjob afterwards, he used the shorter grip as was the case in the whole of the rest of his career!
     
  23. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    No, you need to be more thorough in your research. Greg (the guy you refer to as "a stringer"...but who is actually the USRSA webmaster and magazine editor...who did the article you're referring to, in case you didn't know) did the review well before the K90 was released, and before layup information came to light about it and previous versions of Fed's frame and retail ones. He also did the review based on an N90 that came from Wilson's pro room and not off the shelf, and he did it before there was a retail K90 to compare it to. So at that point, the N90 he got was the closest frame to what Fed was using, but there were still quite a few palpable differences. In fact, here's his quote:

    "Although I had noticed the spacing differences between the retail and Federer versions of the nSix-One Tour 90, they really hit home during stringing. The grommet holes for the Federer version do not conflict as much with the side supports on the SP Pro Cord, and there is plenty of space for the tie-off knot for the crosses. I can't explain the lower swing weight of our retail nSix-One Tour 90, as illustrated in this table."

    However, with the release of the K90, these differences were no longer visible or measurable, suggesting that it, in fact, was the frame Fed had used all along (since 2003).

    As VSBabolat stated above, it has been pretty well established, since the writing of the article you refer to, that the layup Fed uses is closest in all of its properties to what would eventually become the K90 version. The P1 boys have also made various posts on these boards that suggest the same. And as even Greg noted in the article in question, the drill pattern of the N90 was visibly different from the one that Roger used at the time. Meanwhile, the K90's retail drill pattern is a match for the one that Roger has used all along (and continues to). While it's possible to change drill patterns via the pro room, the retail racquet closest to what Fed has used all along is, for many reasons, the K90, and there is no evidence now to suggest that he has ever used anything else since 2003.

    If you'd like, you can contact Greg yourself, as he, too, now believes that the K90 is the racquet Fed has used all along. He believed that the N90 was a slightly dumbed down version that would be easier for the average player to use, as is the BLX. So if even the author of the article you're referring to disagrees with you, it leaves just you who believes what you do. The fact that you haven't put together all the available info in a complete fashion suggests that maybe you have some reason for wanting to believe that Fed changes racquets every two years, even though no other pro on the tour does this. That doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, though.

    N.B. At the risk of getting too technical, I'll try to simplify some of the tech aspects for you. When the article refers to "n-coding", they're talking about the use of silicon dioxide bits that are added to the materials from which the frames are made, in an effort to eliminate the spaces in the material, and thus make it stiffer in spots. The silicon dioxide is not part of the initial graphite/carbon raw materials, but introduced to them to change their properties. While Wilson uses a proprietary jargon term for their racquets, the process is exactly the same as what every other company does when they say they're using "nano" technology or similar. Basically, they're filling up the cracks and airspaces in the graphite with stuff. So Greg's assessment article only tells us that he thinks Wilson's post-2002 frames feel different from the earlier ones, because they have this process done to them, which obviously is true. However, the K-Factor series also used the same process and a version of the same silicon dioxide material. It's a pretty common process these days with many manufacturers, and there would have been no way to differentiate one version of it from another just by feeling the frame during play, especially since the K version hadn't been released yet. So there would have been no way to know that K (which hadn't been released yet) would feel the same or different from N, just that the new frames felt different from the old.

    Therefore, all you can learn from that article is that Roger did indeed switch racquets in 2003, which is something we all already agree on. It's easy to buy into the marketing speak and assume that the N's all had one technology while the K's had a completely other one, but really they were both based on the same type of tech. In the end, the outdated article does nothing to help establish that Fed ever used a racquet based on the retail N90, unless you don't have the technical background to understand the info.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2010
  24. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    He did switch frames and you can tell the difference especially on the BH side. he his it better with the N90
     
  25. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    And by N90 you mean K90 ;)
     
  26. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Nope he used the N90 then switched to the K90.
     
  27. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    Very funny. Based on what (other than Wilson promotional materials and a strong desire to be right)?
     
  28. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    Believe it or not there have been other threads on this subject with a different outcome than your postings
     
  29. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Ha ha ha...Is this a joke?

    So Fish must have switched racquets because he hits his forehand better now than before? Roddick must have switched racquets because his forehand used to be bigger than it is now? Nadal must have switched racquets because he serves better now than before? And Blake must have switched racquets because his ranking has plummeted as of late?

    It's all about the racquet and not the player, right?
     
  30. pmerk34

    pmerk34 Legend

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    No, it's not all about any one thing. If the frames pros used didn't matter they wouldn't be so over the top in their demands for equipment and customization.
     
  31. sixone90

    sixone90 Professional

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    When did Federer start to use Luxilon in the mains? When did he switch to Luxilon in the crosses?
     
  32. LPShanet

    LPShanet Banned

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    There are also threads that concluded that Maria Sharapova had a sex change, ones that suggest the game of tennis doesn't really exist on a physical level (and that we're just imagining it all), and ones that prove that Stefan Edberg was made entirely of bacon. But choosing to believe a thread despite the very strong factual evidence to the contrary suggests willful disbelief. If you enjoy the sport of disagreeing with whatever is the majority view, or that of the most respected posters on the boards (and the ones with the most direct experience with pros' racquets), I won't bother trying to convince you otherwise, since they clearly haven't. (I'm tempted to ask where you stand on the theory of evolution, but I'm not sure I want to know the answer.) If you choose to believe that Roger Federer, unlike every other pro in the top 100, switches racquets like clockwork every two years, and that the miraculous new technologies in those frames just happen to be discovered by genius racquet scientists in the exact same fiscal quarter every 24 months, then carry on. No sweat.

    My posts are intended for those who want to read them and are interested in the information I can provide (and there may be no one who is), not for arguing with or converting disbelievers.
     
  33. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I'm pretty sure what happened is this:

    In mid-2002, he switched to a Tour 90 mold with the lay-up of what essentially became the K90 but without the SiO2 nano particles infused in the graphite (which the K90 does have). It was just braided graphite and Kevlar just like the PS 6.0 85 he had been using for many years until this switch. Like the K90, this lay-up did not contain HyperCarbon. He's talked about how he credits his switch to a 90 sq. in. frame right before the 2002 Hamburg Masters as helping him win his first Masters tournament. This racquet had the red HPS 6.0 95 Tour paintjob on it. Then later in early 2003, he tested several prototypes when Wilson was developing the nCode 90. One of the racquets that he tried was the retail PS Tour 90 which contained HyperCarbon but was originally designed for Sampras (but then Sampras retired). He only used it very briefly and decided he didn't like it. So Wilson took the 90 sq. in. racquet that he had been using and infused it with the SiO2 nano molecules but left out the HyperCarbon. This racquet evolved into the K90, which Federer first used with a black PS Tour 90 paintjob on it in mid-2003. He won his first Slam with it (2003 Wimbledon). This is the same racquet that Federer has been using ever since then, just with various paintjobs on it. The retail nCode 90 got both HyperCarbon and SiO2 nano molecules, but Federer never used it on tour.
     
  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, I know. I was one of the members here that talked Greg Raven into conducting that playtest with Federer's nCode 90 paintjob in the first place.
     
  35. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Of course the pros frames matter, and what matters to them most is that their frames remain the same for as long as possible, as the last thing they want to do is to change their frames in the middle of their career, especially a very successful one. It's not like Wilson was offering Federer a ton of money to switch racquets. He already had a lifetime contract with Wilson that guaranteed him $2 million a year for life. So it's not the same as Head offering Djokovic a ton of money to leave Wilson and sign with Head and use a Head racquet.
     
  36. Netspirit

    Netspirit Hall of Fame

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    Is there any indication that Federer is NOT using BLX?
     
  37. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    ^ That's what's funny. If the BLX came out before the k90 everybody would of said the blx is his real frame. The k90 beat it to the punch.
     
  38. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Why would Federer switch to a racquet that is essentially the same as the K90 but with a lower swingweight and less crisp feel? He already knows what the perfect swingweight is for him, and that would be the same one he's been swinging for many years.

    Also, neither Wilson nor Federer have ever stated that the BLX90 that he uses is the same one that's sold in the stores, unlike with the K90.
     
  39. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    Based on what? Your fantasy that the k90 is feds racquet that you bought even though it was too heavy for you like the ps85?


    Then why did people who playtested them both claim feds racquet played like the ncode90?
    How do you know the ncode90 is not actually the materials used in federers racquet but wilson wanted to release a longer handle because they felt most players used two handed backhands? Because of the ps85 and federer wanted a 90in just like the 85 with no hypercarbon? You can read minds now too? How do you know that he didn't want more power? And everybody says the k90 feels nothing like a 90in ps85. :oops:
     
  40. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    BS. Try youtube and BLX. Federer is on there talking about how great BLX is. :oops:
     
  41. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    The PS 6.0 85 did come out before the K90 and everybody says that the PS 6.0 85 was his real frame.

    Federer would be using the same racquet regardless of what marketing name came out first, e.g., nCode 90, K90, BLX90, The Fed 90, The Real Fed Tour 90, the XXX Tour 90, the Youtek Tour 90, the Super Duper Tour 90, the Plutonium Tour 90, the Shotmaker Tour 90, the 200G Tour 90, the Aero Pro Tour 90, the Radical Tour 90, the PC 600 Tour 90, the zSix-One Tour 90, etc., etc.
     
  42. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    And that somehow means that he uses the same BLX90 as the one sold in the stores???? :confused: :roll:

    I can talk all day long about what a great car the BMW M3 is, but that doesn't mean I drive one myself. :oops:
     
  43. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    No, but what exactly is the difference if federer is talking about blx instead of kfactor? NONE.
     
  44. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    You must be on that thorazine i recommended. :)
     
  45. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Based on all of my experience and information and the fact that I have more than one brain cell in my head, unlike you.

    Compared to a Pure Drive, the K90 does play very much like a nCode 90. None of the playtesters used the nCode as their regular racquet for years. Oh, and they all said that Federer's racquet felt different from the retail version, but they just couldn't describe it. That's because they don't have a point of reference.

    Have you ever heard Federer mention the word "HyperCarbon"? Ever??

    Why would Wilson put HyperCarbon in two generations of the Tour 90 and then all of a sudden take it out and then state that this K90 without the HyperCarbon was the racquet that Federer has been using all along?

    Yes, because everyone has actually played with a 90 sq. in. PS 6.0 85? In fact, no one has because it doesn't exist! How can anyone say it doesn't play like something that doesn't even exist and that no one has ever hit with?

    The reason why the K90 does not have the same exact feel as the PS 6.0 85 is mostly because the K90 is nCoded with SiO2 nano molecules. That changes the feel slightly. It also feels different because it has a different throat and uses a different mold and has a bigger head and a different string pattern! :???:
     
  46. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Um...because Wilson said the K90 is the same one sold in the stores but not the BLX????
     
  47. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    Uhh, just what exactly do you think they are saying in the BLX videos? That he DOESNT play with BLX? :roll:
     
  48. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    Have you EVER heard him mention braided graphite and kevlar? :oops: I guess his racquet has none since he NEVER mentioned it.

    Well, i'm not convinced the K90 has no hypercarbon. Many feel the k90 is more powerful than the tour and ncode90. Which makes zero sense if the k90 does not contain hypercarbon. Maybe the tour and ncode90 are the true braided graphite-kevlar frames, and the k90 is 100% material like the k88.
     
  49. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, they can say Federer plays with the "BLX90" but it's not the same BLX90 as the one sold in the stores. That's why they CAN'T say that. Don't you know there are dozens of racquets that Wilson has code-named the "BLX90", only one of which is sold in the stores? Federer uses the "K90" which Wilson also calls the "BLX90", since they are just marketing names. Federer's racquet is whatever Wilson wants to call it, but they sold it in retail stores with the marketing name "K90".
     
  50. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    And you've never told us who actually said this. Probably just more posers like you who have never even hit with the K90 before.

    Oh, and you do know that higher swingweight = more power and plow through, right? :???:

    And who cares if you're not convinced or not about anything? :confused:
     

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