Who has the most wristy/nonwristy forehand?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Golden Retriever, Sep 19, 2007.

  1. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    "Short in the court" is the major problem that Rafa has, particularly late in a match when he gets a bit tired. He hits a ton of top, with a whole lot of wrist, but when his forehands are landing within two-three feet of the service courts he's in trouble in the match.
     
    #51
  2. joesixtoe

    joesixtoe Rookie

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    i use my wrist, and without it i feel like my shot is very well it just feels weird, and like i'm not able to get a good feel on the ball. i use my wrist in a more windshield like way. i don't snap, i just control the ball with my wrist i guess is the best way i can explain it. i go back and forth with how i hit my forehand, but since i have gone back to this, i have been controling the forehand better as well as have more power. the ball as it hits your racquet prevents your wrist from getting all out of sorts. thats just my take.
     
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  3. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    It's called hitting the ball earlier. Go learn something.
     
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  4. mrcalon

    mrcalon Rookie

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    That's an outdated thread.

    Anyways my vote for wristiest forehand goes to Nadal since he topspins everything.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2007
    #54
  5. dima

    dima Banned

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    Wow, that's a very ignorant statement, please go pay for a couple of lessons then come back after you've acquired some knowledge of the game.
     
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  6. keithchircop

    keithchircop Professional

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    WOW.

    Just goes to show that lots of posts mean absolutely nothing.
     
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  7. Wannabe

    Wannabe New User

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    The Federer forehand looks wristier than it is...

    I once suggested on this forum that Federer had the wristiest forehand I'd ever seen and was promptly corrected by another poster. I can't be bothered to look back and see who it was. It retrospect, it seems obvious that the "over the top" action that you see every time Fed hits his forehand comes not from the wrist but from the shoulder. The reason it should have been obvious is that to rotate your racquet over the top of the ball you have to rotate it about an axis pointing along your arm. Try to rotate your wrist about that axis: it won't move! I think Fed occasionally uses a bit of wrist to get more pace on the ball but it's certainly not an intrinsic part of the stroke. Interestingly, the BBC commentary during the last Wimbledon final showed (via split screen slow motion) that there's a lot of similarity in mechanics between the Federer and the Borg forehands. They also tried to prove that the Federer serve looks exactly like the Sampras serve, but, since I couldn't see anything unusual about either I think they were stretching that one.
     
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  8. psamp14

    psamp14 Hall of Fame

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    what about robby ginepri? he seems to use a lot of wrist in hitting his forehands....
     
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  9. dima

    dima Banned

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    Actually, one of the only exceptions to that would be Andreev, if he doesn't use wrist on his forehand, then I'm a 7.0 touring pro :grin:
     
    #59
  10. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I have yet to see video evidence, or any other evidence of **ANY** pro using their wrist to purposely swing the frame forward. They all have their wrist laid back, before, during, and after contact.

    The only exception would be when they are completely stretched out, and have no choice but to have their wrist in a straight line at contact with the frame and rest of their arm.
     
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  11. EricW

    EricW Professional

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    God damnit you're all retarded. Every pro hits forehands with and without the wrist release... you gotta be able to hit it both ways!! So stop posting pictures of Federer hitting a nonwristy forehand because him and every other ****ing pro hit both types
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
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  12. EricW

    EricW Professional

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    Just join hi-techtennis.com and search, you'll find both ways

    On many forehands, pros and other advanced players relax the wrist, and the force of the swing controls the movement of the wrist, thus causing wrist action... you probably even do it, you just dont know, either that or you have some ****ty WTA forehand.

    No **** it's passive, i'm not telling you to use your forearm/wrist muscles to control your wrist, you relax it and it passively lags behind and then "catches up" and the speed at which is catches up is determined by the force of the swing, (the swingspeed)... adding your wrist, done right, isn't adding another variable, because it becomes "one with the swingspeed"
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
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  13. EricW

    EricW Professional

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    Pros hit both ways and you happened to dig up a image of a forehand Federer hit with minimal wrist. THEY HIT IT BOTHS WAYS SO STOP POSTING PICTURES OR VIDS THINKING IT'S ROCK SOLID PROOF OR SOMETHING

    AGAIN: Pros hit the ball both ways, so stop showing us vids of Federer hitting a forehand with minimal wrist thinking you've presented rock solid evidence, join hi-techtennis.com and watch the forehands Federer hits, you'll see many of them have a good amount of wrist action
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
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  14. ShooterMcMarco

    ShooterMcMarco Hall of Fame

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    I think you need to calm down.

    You certainly aren't helping your cause e-yelling at us like that. The video isn't solid proof, although it gives us a representation on what we're analyzing. Do we need real-time subatomic footage of pro-player forehands to arrive at conclusions? I don't think so. I think the main point here is that if the wrist is involved, it is relaxed into the shot and not consciously snapped forward. A relaxed wrist != wristy. One commonality is that the hand is laid back at contact, and the degree at which it lays back varies from shot to shot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
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  15. dima

    dima Banned

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    It seems the nanny called in sick today and ericw was left at home by himself.
     
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  16. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    I've known some pretty decent "club level" players over the years that use a lot of wrist on forehands. My opinion is that such "wrist", though, introduces more unforced errors -- more, in fact, than the gain in pace can compensate. In some cases the "wristy" forehands were learned early-on and the players in question simply haven't taken the time or demonstrated the resolve to correct the situation.

    EricW does -- in point of fact -- need to calm down some. The photos don't prove anything in particular, but I don't see "counterpoint" photos from him "proving" otherwise.
     
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  17. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    Forgot to mention...

    Some of the "wristy" players were racquetball or squash players, first...:grin:
     
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  18. TennezSport

    TennezSport Hall of Fame

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    Good point

    ^^^^ Nice point MH and that is one of the big problems in trying to teach a former RB or Squash player. Wristy errors all over the place.

    However, EricW does have a point with the relaxed wrist and most players with great FH do use the relaxed wrist, but only in the follow through. Much like when we were kids skimming stones on the water or throwing a baseball, the wrist would snap after the stone or ball was gone. In tennis that small wrist movement (more vertical than forward) is after the ball has left the racquet and you can see that in the vid in slo-mo.

    TennezSport :cool:
     
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  19. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    Yeah...

    It's a sport we all love, in one degree or another. Differences in opinion matter less than what we agree on. I think we can all agree that a serve had better be hit with a loose, floppy wrist, and the racquet had better not be held like a hammer, or it ain't gonna be much of a serve.

    Whenever someone tells me there's only one correct way to do something, I take some pleasure in remembering one of bowling's greats: Lou Campi, who had the affectionate nick, "wrong-foot Louie" A right-handed bowler, he threw the ball off his right foot. Try that some time! Particularly, try that while maintaining an average of over 200.

    If anyone is interested in Lou, here's a link to some info...
    http://books.google.com/books?id=CIxtXabLaUwC&pg=PA90&lpg=PA90&dq=wrong+foot+lou&source=web&ots=lsnem1fFGJ&sig=whGbZc1A5Ca3OrNTjcdhlNApNFw
     
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  20. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    If that is the case, then I'm sure you will find it quite easy to show proof of a pro hitting a FH in the way you advocate. Please show a photo or video of a pro hitting a FH at contact with the ball, with the wrist released and not laid back.

    And **NO**, being streched out for a ball doesn't count.

    And I have yet to see any video evidence on Hi-TechTennis, Advanced tennis, or any other site that shows any proof of what you are stating.

    Here is a study done on the Agassi FH.

    Originally Posted by OrangeOne

    NB. I know nothing about the author, Bill Mountford, but he is doing the Q&A role for USTA.com.

    http://www.usta.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=377488

    Q. In regards to the question about PTR or USPTA instructors not teaching the "modern way" (10/25), it raised a question. Does the "modern way" require a higher level of skill in order for it to be performed properly? I remember a study done by Vic Braden on Agassi's forehand. Andre swore he used his wrist, but the study showed in fact he did not. It seems to me that the techniques required in the modern way could be easily misunderstood or applied resulting in poor execution, even with an instructor’s help (i.e., watching a player like Agassi and seeing him use his "wrist"). ......
    ...Many players associate a “firm wrist” with squeezing the racquet handle too firmly, and this is not ideal, so I am careful about ever offering that suggestion. The study of Andre Agassi’s own perception of his forehand is interesting. He certainly cocks his wrist back before contact (putting his forearm muscles “on stretch”). After he finishes the follow-through, Agassi’s wrist is inarguably in a different position. His logic is easy to follow: that the wrist “snaps” through the hitting zone. Vic Braden was able to break down that Agassi’s wrist was, in fact, still (if not locked) throughout the milliseconds of contact during the forehand. However, if you were trying to teach/coach the Agassi forehand and were to insist that a student keep his wrist firm throughout the swing, then it would not likely look at all like… the Agassi forehand.


    – Bill


    Here is a video clip of Agassi striking a forehand. You could go frame-by-frame. His wrist is laid back, before, during, and immediately after contact.

    http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/site_tour.html?AAFHCenterSide1.mov


    Here is a site that shows FH filmed at 4000 Frames per second. You could clealry see that not one player breaks their wrist forward in the forehand. The wrist is laid back throughout the swing and only releases well after contact.

    http://www.look-learn.de/e_index.htm

    (click on "SUPERSLOWMOTION" & "TRAILER")

    Here is a video of Guga (no wrist snap)

    http://inside.sfuhs.org/webdesign/atrp/HighSpeedVideo/highspeedvideo.htm

    Serena Williams ( no wrist snap)

    http://www.procomparetennis.net/dem...afhreturn.jpg&democlip=demoserenafhreturn.mov


    They all have their wrist laid back before, during, and immediately after contact. The wrist releases by itself well after contact has been made and the ball has left the strings.
     
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  21. ShooterMcMarco

    ShooterMcMarco Hall of Fame

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    Get em' Drakulie, get em'

    lol
     
    #71
  22. EricW

    EricW Professional

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    Of all the people who told me i didn't give any proof, i told you to join hi-techtennis.com and see for yourself... Especiallly players like Nadal and Federer. It's really very obvious if you watch the vids on hi-techtennis.com

    Pros do it both ways, different situations and different intentions

    Seems everyone wants video evidence, so if you're a member of hi-techtennis.com, here's your proof:

    http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/federer/wrist.php

    EDIT:

    Let's say, that the guys disagreeing with me are completely right.. This arguement still doesn't matter because i'm advocating a relaxed wrist, but i'm not telling you to take an active role in moving your wrist. Whether the wrist moves before contact doesn't really matter, because either way, every good forehand has a high swingspeed and a relaxed wrist. <-- Exactly what i'm advocating, whether the force of the swing really moves the wrist, or it's just an illusion... we're all on the same page, unless someone on here suggests tensing the wrist, which i have a feeling won't happen

    Bottom line: I'm not suggesting anyone "snap" their wrist foreward, or actively move their wrist(with their wrist muscles). The wrist should be completely relaxed, coupled with good mechanics and a high swingspeed. We aren't arguing anything that matters, because we'd teach the same thing, having differing opinions on what our teachings result in slow motion
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2007
    #72
  23. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I have seen **PLENTY** of vids on that site.

    Not one vid shows a pro hitting a FH with their wrist broken forward at contact. Not one.

    Like I said, if pros do it as often as you state, then you should have absolutely no problem finding a photo on the internet of a pro htting a FH while the ball is on the strings (like the one posted of Fed), with the wrist broken forward.

    The fact is, you won't find it unless it is a shot taken when the pro is being stretched out.
     
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  24. Serpententacle

    Serpententacle Hall of Fame

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    Connors=not "wristy"...
     
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  25. EricW

    EricW Professional

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    Dude, i just posted it:

    http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/federer/wrist.php
     
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  26. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^ That link takes you to the main page where you have to log in. No video or photo. :(
     
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  27. EricW

    EricW Professional

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    You need to be a member.

    Watch this vid, looks like Roddick has a lot of wrist action here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3iWVRe9NKY
     
    #77
  28. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    These angles are hard to see what exactly is going on with the wrist. Look at the following videos of 9 pros. Not one do they break their wrist. They keep their wrist laid back before, during, and immediately after contact.

    Here is a Roddick Slow motion forehand from the side:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w

    Fernando Gonzalez:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVTmGJ7pFzU

    Tommy Haas:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_jLn6zN3cA

    Lleyton Hewitt:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB_b_aIWWzk

    Jonas Bjorkman:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjsVUKxOP_A

    Roger Federer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI-xzEAaSs0
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWyKWpMHgho
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

    Kim Klijster:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AicCkXhp-c0

    Mauresmo:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUt0EOwTw8M

    James Blake:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5l6NiQ1Upg
     
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  29. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

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    Ha ha ha, now forehand has become a racquet ball swing.
    That's in terms of wrist action but for the swing path, it now short-circuits like a ping-pong swing.

    Anyway, among current top players, I found Radek Stepaneck's forehand very wrist quiet.
     
    #79
  30. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    Got a great idea, here, Eric...just post the member name and password so we can all look at your proof without having to join...:grin:
     
    #80
  31. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    As in virtually none, period.

    You're letting your desire to not "be wrong" interfere with your perceptions, here.

    Not a single player shown (Federer, Ljubičić, Roddick, etal) showed any more than just the normal wrist movement that one would expect on a hard forehand. Their wrists aren't iron rods connected to their forearms.
     
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  32. mileslong

    mileslong Professional

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    look, all you brainiacs on here with all your video links etc. its as simple as this, if you think these guys don't snap their srists and they remain laid back throughout then all you have to do is this simple test.

    take some athletic tape. tape your wrist very firmly to the point that it can't bend or better yet just tape in the famous laid back position you keep blathering about and make sure it cant move from this laid back position. now go out and try to hit tennis balls with it and try to serve with your wrist that way.

    ill just stand on the other side of the fence and gather all of your balls flying over the fence and collect them for my ball machine while i laugh at you.

    why don't these tennis players who have wrist problems just tape the thing where its immovable in the paid back position and go ahead and play since they don't need any wrist snap?

    most ridiculous argument i have seen in a long while.

    EVERY PLAYER ON TOUR SNAPS THEIR WRIST! ITS JUST A MATTER OF HOW MUCH. THEY ALL START OFF IN A LAID BACK POSITION AND THEN THE WRIST SNAPS THROUGH THE HITTING ZONE, THE POSITION OF THE BALL TO THE RACKET WHEN THE WRIST SNAPS DETERMINES WHERE THE BALL WILL GO WITH HOW MUCH POWER AND SPIN.

    is that really so hard to understand? no player keep their wrist laid back before during and after their stroke, even on an inside out forehand when they would keep that laid off position longer they still snap the wrist through the ball at some point on the follow through.
     
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  33. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I have taped my wrist heavily since I sprained it in june. When I first started hitting again it had absolutely zero strength in it, if I wasn't exactly on time and needed to use my wrist to correct in the slightest I would be on my knees in pain.

    No pro, snaps his wrist through the stroke, it just flops through naturally after you are done hitting the ball.

    [​IMG]

    Oh, and if you were wondering, I can serve the ever loving snot out of the ball with my wrist taped up too.

    J
     
    #83
  34. kimizz

    kimizz Rookie

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    Isnt this a common teaching method? Lock the wrist in the layd back position(with tape or something else) so that the student learns how to drive through the ball. "mileslong", if we went to the court I could tape my wrist and still hit most of the balls inside lines with decent pace!
     
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  35. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    Exactly right. Of course the wrist "moves" some at the completion of the stroke. It can't help but do so. Those who see that as "snapping" the wrist through are seeing what they want to see, and attempting to get the rest of us to see it, too.

    I guess I'm not unlike others in some respects. For example, when I find my serve is "slowing down" some, I have to deliberately think through my "action list" of items that make a difference: Loose, spaghetti wrist; turn shoulders through; tuck left hand down after the toss; move right foot up to, and touch left foot; keep head up until after the ball has been struck; bend knees and "spring up" through the ball. When I do all those *simple* things my serve picks up to where it ought to be (for an old guy, that is)

    If anyone's "action list" on a routine forehand includes deliberately snapping their wrist, I'll bet their unforced error ratio is way too high, and they have to avoid getting too close to side lines.
     
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  36. tennis_hand

    tennis_hand Hall of Fame

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    Using wrist is probably how Federer can put on so much topspin on such a small-headed racket.

    Playing good totally without wrist motion, or a totally stiff wrist is nonsense in today's games.
    In old times, the continental and eastern grips don't favor wrist motion. but the semi-western and western grips will benefit from the appropriate amount of wrist motion.
     
    #86
  37. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Not using your wrist is the opposite of a totally stiff wrist. You keep your wrist totally loose, and just let it chill out and do pretty much whatever it wants, which with a good stroke, and good timing will include remaining laid back through the entire hitting part of the stroke, and flopping forward at some point in the followthrough.

    Lemme check my pics and see if I can find a pic in the WW motion.

    J
     
    #87
  38. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    [​IMG]

    Here, finishing up the WW finish, and wrist is clearly laid back.

    Sorry about the dark pic but it is the only one I have that clearly shows how laid back my wrist is in the ww motion.

    J
     
    #88
  39. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    #89
  40. ktownva

    ktownva Semi-Pro

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    #90
  41. MichaelH

    MichaelH New User

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    Not at all critical of your comment, but I don't quite understand it. The "footprint" of the ball on the face of the racket is way small when compared to the overall area of the face. Now, if you're talking about the "sweet spot" being larger on larger faced rackets, thus reducing the number of "bricked" shots, I'd understand, but I don't know that the amount of topspin possible varies with the area of the racket face, significantly.
     
    #91

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