Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tennisflyboy, Jan 29, 2005.
nah man i'll dominate you. i'm a 1st degree white belt.
Datacipher, thanks. You're right that it does happen that posters here embellish their tennis prowess, whether unwittingly or by design. But I am always willing to give the benefit of the doubt After all, who wants to be a member of a sports board where absolutely everyone sucks at said sport ?
Yes I know him. He was PAC 10 Champion @UCLA. He's about 34 years old and a teching pro at Overland Park Racquet Club. He is generally acknowledged as the best player in the Missouri Valley Section. The final year end rankings have just been posted and you can find him there. I'll try to find the link for his posted rating.
(When are you coming to KC?. G. Perk and I are playing dubs together at KC Racquet Club. Huston P. plays there too.)
Fritz's last rating is from 2003. The ratings around here have traditionally been results of leagues and Fritz obviously can't play in a league anymore because of his rating. If you do a drill down search of the ratings finder you can see him.
Drill down choices:
District: Heart of America
Ahhhhhhh, fond memories of the Perkins brothers, drinking lost of beer and Emporia, KS are coming back to me now. Ol' Huston P. and ourJunction City vs. Manhattan HS rivalry. Huston will tell you it was not much of a rivalry and we were not competition for them. They were on steroids that's why. I need to snap out, back to reality!!!!!!!!
I should be coming to KC early this spring around March or April. Go to my profile and send me an e-mail with your contact information, I'll turn around and send you mine. That way when I am in KC I promise we will hook up and play.
As for Bissell, I remember from my college days. I think he may be 5-10 years younger. He was a big time junior, not sure if or where he played college. Did he play on the tour a while? I was doing a quick search when looking up players and did not go back far enough on him.
i would never be as good as any of you
I think the problem is most poeple ready the NTRP and think they are .5 - 1.0 higher than they really are. Someone saying they are 4.0 on a bad day and 5.0 on a good day, well... That is such an immense extreme it isn't even funny.
I play 4.5, I went to Nationals for 4.0. I would say ideally I am 4.25. I have just less than a .500 record at the 4.5 so far. I was undefeated at 4.0
It doesn't matter what you are rated as. Anyone can beat anyone on any given day. The rating level is just a measurement. Every section will have a different level compared to others. I myself am a former Junior college all american (in the early 90's) playing at a 4.5 level, highly ranked in Texas. I have beaten former satellite players and lost to former satellite players. Does that rate me higher than what I am currently? No. I continue to beat players who are younger than me with ease. Does winning move me up a level or 2? No. Are there 4.5 level players with better strokes than me? Yes. Can they hit every shot listed on the rating scale and then some? Yes. Ratings are just a way to place you to play with the people that are similar in playing level to you.
I am rated 5.0 and I could never imagine beating a satellite player. My cousin played the satellites and I couldn't even give him a good practice match. Rally with him? Sure. Return his 120 mph left serve? Yeah right.
Not that I don't believe you, I just don't believe you.
I agree with Norcal.
The rules say that if your rating is 4.000001, then you're a 4.5.
Just wanted to say Scott that I think your Tennis4you website rocks! Looked at the Tip of the Day (+ about 10 more) and there is a lot I can use as a 2nd year coach with my players. Thanks.
NORCAL, you have proven my point. What is your cousin rated at? Did he play Division 1, 2, 3 college? Did he go from juniors to satellite tournaments? What is the age difference between the both of you. Ratings are just a number. There are 5.0 players in Texas that couldn't hold a candle with 4.5 players. I have been fortunate to play a USTA national level tournament, albeit, Mixed Doubles in the 5.0's and did play against players from Northern Cal and Southern Cal. People would say that the players from California were not 5.0 players as they opened up a can of whoop a** on everyone. And this is the 5.0 level.
Wow rickson, your hardcore!
I'm glad I made your point, junglepd. I just don't see how a 4.5 or 5.0 player can beat a satellite player (unless the latter has a broken leg or something). My cousin played #1 singles for Miami of Ohio (D1), graduated, played the satellites for awhile, then coached a doubles team on the ATP tour for a year or two. His top singles rank was in the 700's I believe and his top dubs ranking was in the 400's I believe. Great player and great guy but did not have what it takes to reach the elite pro level.
I didn't get to hit with him a lot because he lived on the other side of the country but when I did get to it was incredibly fun. Big lefty serve, beautiful volleys.
I assume that guys who play the satellites have world rankings or have to win qualifying matches to play them. I don't believe a 4.5 level player can win a match in qualies for a satellite. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I missed my calling lol!
And if you cyber detectives are thinking, 'aha, another TW MB story makerupper', well, I won't tell you his name but find out who was #1 singles at Miamo Ohio around 1995 and you can tell me!
You don't sound like a 4.5 to me if you have been any kind of college all-american or beaten former satellite pros. Maybe your 40 or 50 years old + and that would be understandable. If you want you can interpret NTRP guidelines to your own satisfation as many who want to play down do.
See this, http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_7647.pdf?1/14/2005 7:16:30 PM
Then again, you could just be a really good 4.5. It's just a number anyways.
The whole one section has different level players compared to others is nor very true. Go check and see who won and who the runners-up were for last 4 or so national championships in 4.5 and 5.0 team tennis. It varys across the country from year-to-year.
Have a look for yourself. All in all most sections are comparable with some variation from year to year.
http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_7647.pdf?1/14/2005 7:16:30 PM
A 4.5/5.0 who plays three times a week will beat a former satellite player who plays two or three times a year, no matter how good you used to be, if you're not on the court consistently, you can't maintain it. Question for the Kansas boys, whatever happened to Buff Farrow ? Went to school with Kip Brady and he was always talking about that guy...
atatu, do you play 4.5 levels in texas? Do you know Carlson and Sarli. This is J Vazquez from SA. How's Rocha and Miller playing.
I am not so sure you're correct 100% of the time in your assesment. You might want to see a few of those kind of matches take place before you pass that judgement as wholesale. I know a few guys of former satellite level who don't play anymore or very little and are still awfully scarry when to do hit the court.
Buff went to UCLA. Was an All-American, had limited to some low-level success on the tour. He did have a tennis playing career non-the-less which is still pretty darn impressive in my book. If I am not mistaken he did have a few good wins out therre. I am pretty sure he did have a win over Mats Wilander in 93. Not sure where his is now. Maybe back in Wichita.
If Farrow only made it up to 300 or 400 and did not play anymore I'd bet my house on him against a 4.5/5.0 in a winner take all match. Just my opinion.
Junglepd, I know Todd and Tony. I was captain of the Austin 4.5 that beat SA in the finals in 2002 to go to nationals. We got lucky that year, SA had Horan and Hildebrand playing singles so I dropped my best singles guy down to doubles. I see you are playing with Torres. I played doubles against him last year when he was playing with Cambon. Looks like I'm going to Mabry this weekend after all, filling in for a guy who has the flu, we're playing two SA guys I don't know, Trujillo and Veale. I'm a terrible doubles player, so not expecting much.
Andfor, my statement wasn't meant to be 100% accurate, obviously it's going to depend on what shape the satellite player is in, etc. Also, that term is pretty broad, does it include futures players, etc. Sorry to not be clear.
I agree. Talent is talent. Just like riding a bike. Once you learn, you never forget. Would I put my money on a former satellite player against a 4.5/5.0 player playing 3-4 times a week? Absolutely.
atatu, thought that was you. Unfortunately, not playing the Mabry this year. Family responsibilities. Well, of course you guys beat us, lost to I believe Brandt and Phillips at No 1 doubles that year. What a match, only 1 break and you guys took the super buster. Well, I plan on playing coutyard this year so I guess I'll see you then. Good luck at the tournament.
Junlepd, I know how it is with a family, I'm going to owe my wife big time for this weekend...
As to the 5.0 vs. Satellite player,the thing is, with the way the USTA leagues are these days, a lot of the 5.0 players are former satellite players. Look at the roster of the 5.0 Socal team that won it last year. They had a guy on the roster who played No. 1 at UC Irvine, I believe, and he had a cup of coffee on the tour. He also won a National/Father son championship title a few years ago, he was self rated 4.5. Like I said, it all depends, and I think your orginal point was correct.
LOL, you have a point!
If you read my attachement you'll see former tourning pros for the most part and guys like your UC Irvine D1 guy are not allowed anymore. They need to be at 5.5 or Open not carrying there buddies team and riding roughshot all over legitimate players trying to play within systems guidelines.
Lost of guys as you said took advantage of self-verification and played down. That does not make them true 5.0's or 4.5's as the system intended and we all know it. It make them cheaters.
Sure your guy from SoCal if I remember had a Top 500 ATP ranking at one time. He is not a 5.0 and just because he made it through the system does not make him one. He's probably also a sandbagger. Now this guy I would pick against a former Futures or Satellite player who only plays 3 or 4 times a year. LOL
I don't think so. As someone else said, talent is talent-it doesn't just go away. Although that former satellite player might get clocked by a 6.0 or another satellite player who plays consistently.
In my own experience, a 4.5 is NOTHING compared to the satellites. Take me...I used to play 3 or 4x a week, sometimes for 5 or 6 hours a crack, and in the MORNINGS, BEFORE WORK, I would go down to the park near my house to hit against the wall. I thought I was kind of a hot shot-crushed a bunch of people in my USTA league, etc. Then one day, casually, a colleague in my office mentioned that he used to play Div. I tennis on the East Coast and even "played in a couple of satellite events". But, he lost them all-just got through the first or second round, and he was "only" the #3 singles player in college and hadn't even picked up a racquet in over a year. I was kinda excited at the prospect of seeing what I could do against him-I had already beaten a few Div. III players, but they probably weren't even 4.5's. So this guy comes on the court with an OLD Prince racquet-probably hadn't been strung in years, and he's got a pot belly. "Damn", I said..."I'm in like Flynt!"
I served the first game and absolutely blew him off the court-a couple aces, an unreturnable and an easy sitter that I put away at mid-court. Score: 1-0 Phil. Then, I proceeded to LOSE THE NEXT 12 GAMES!!!! This guy owned me-his strokes were so smooth and consistant and his tactics so sound, that I was just in a daze. Total frustration. After those 12 games-MANY of which went beyond deuce, but which I couldn't close out, I took a couple games-I think he just got bored of playing. At the time I wasn't a bad player-but this guy was a natural. That's the difference between Satellite and 4.5 players.
Phil, I've had this same experience. I once played a former state champion (high school) who had beaten McEnroe in the juniors and went on to play division I, and he beat me playing in old loafers. I was hitting against the high school bang board and this guy walked up in his street clothes and asked if I would hit with him. I gave him a racket thinking this might be a bad idea. Then he whooped me in straight sets. He didn't tell me about his background until after we finished playing. I was a strong 4.5 at the time and he hadn't played for a few years.
People just don't realize the difference between good and really good. I'll also add that since I learned as a little kid, I can always pick up a racket and play competitively, even if I've laid off for several years. Fitness and timing may suffer, but the basics never go away. And I'm just a former Div III college player.
TennisFlyBoy, I see you saw my last post. Are you having trouble with the email you said you wanted to send?
Not to beat a dead horse, but check the tennis background of some of the guys on the Socal 5.0 team last year: Bruce Man Son Hing, Ken Kuperstein, Jonas Andersson, Desmond McBride....most of these guys played some satellite events at one time or another.
Atatu, thanks for bringing those guys names up. I looked up all of them last fall. Yes they all have substantial high-level backgrounds and are all cheaters who played 5.0, IMHO. Also, most of the guys on the runner-up Montana 5.0 were fresh or close to fresh off the Montana State Div. 1 team, again they are also cheaters. The system may not have caught them last year but measures are s-lo-w-l-y being implemented by the USTA to stop it going forward.
By the way, I am sure all those cheaters are fine fellows. No offense to them they just cheated and did not get busted before the season was over. Could they have sandbagged a few matches on their road to the national title? Hmmmmmmmmm? We may never know......
Mr. Datacphincter... I sent the info THAT night... don't tell me you didn't get it... Put your email address up on the boards, so I can send it to you again!
Your Daddy, flyboy...
Funny, these guys you mentioned are all top open players here in so Cal .the guy from U.C. Irvine was ranked number 7.or 8 in the nation, He barely beat our sandbagger 11-9 in the third set tiebreaker! it looked like pro match. this guy is from the Nellie Gale tennis club which is in Laguna Niguel . These two guys were bumbed up , so you won;t see them this year . that was the best 4.5 tennis I ever saw!
Did you use the automatic email? It works, I just tried it again and others have used it. You shouldn't rely on typing in the address yourself, spelling is not your strong suit!
So, No, I didn't get it. I'm assuming this is a little game your playing? Pretty strange.
I for one am the first not to ever beat a dead horse, but you saw these guys playing 4.5 before they were ever 5.0's?!
A couple of those guys self rated 4.5 but still played in the 5.0 division.
A couple of those guys self rated 4.5 but still played in the 5.0 division, so I guess they were actually "playing up" LOL.
And they went on to win the 5.0 nationals last year?!
Gosh the story gets worse. Some people have no self-respect do they??????????? At least they had enough self-esteem to not play 4.5. Awful nice of 'em.
This is a prime example of folks taking advantage of the self-rarting system. I bet the same kind of person would like to sign-up for some 10 and under tournaments to win some trophies. At least in that case the USTA has a way to stop 'em. SHHHEEESH!
The only way to really prove this question would be for TW to throw a tournament for all the boardies. SLO is a great place for playing tennis and it would be a great way to actually meet all the posters. Heck, they could even have Bungalo Bill hold his tennis camp at this event so that the many posters that requested this could get some analysis in actual match play and go thru the typical workouts and drills. I would surely try to show up and would be game for playing some woodies with all the old schoolers
that would be sweet. i'd definitely get some time off to show up for that, but methinks alot of folks would fail to show, due to their rating. plenty of, "well, in worcester a 4.5 is equal to a 3.0 in zimbabwe,so technically i wan't lying." and all this....
Are you from MA?
Interesting question for Brett, I thought he was from Australia.
I'm a more classical type player. I play with a 90sq frame (Donnay) with lead tape all round the head with technifibre strings. I have three rackets exactly the same. I like to volley and I like to put a lot of slice on my serves both wide and down the centre. My forehand is my best shot and I use semiwestern grip. I have a one handed backhand.
I like to play lots of matches but have no rating which I would love to ascertain.
I don't know my American rating as i live in Australia.
As a junior, I am in the mid-700's in Australia. I am currently 14.
We have ITN (international tennis number) down here and i was unofficially tested and i got an ITN 5.
andfor and perf: actually i'm not far from you andfor, i'm in louisville,ky. i even wear shoes and have all my teeth! the reason worcester popped in my mind is for some reason i was thinking of that adam sandler skit "toll booth willy" off one of his cd's. if you like sandler and haven't heard it, download it, it's classic. that'll be a dolla' twenty-five pup!
Since TennisFlyBoy has now seen all of my replies and has direct access to my email through the forum AND has lied about sending me the info. It's time for the final verdict. TennisFlyBoy = Immature liar. Not much of a surprise. Can't waste my time on this guy any longer.
If you are under 12 TennisFlyBoy, then I understand, you're just silly. If you are over 12, well it's pretty sad you feel the need to lie to get attention.
TennisFlyBoy = ETennisAce ?
The same kid? Just wondering. Both seem similar if you ask me.
We called him out and he didn't/couldn't answer the bell.
Bismark, I am sure your right about a fraud like this having more than one handle.
Winner by TKO, DATACIIIIIIIIIIPHERRRRRRRR!
LET'S GET READY TO RUUUUMMM...oh, it's over already.
From a top ranking junior to a satellite player. Next time he will claim to be a Top 100 Pro.
Data - I have never noticed this "automatic e-mail" thing. (I have a Mac G3 with OSX, running Safari as my browser.)
On other Win-Doze oriented boards, those little links and graphics you folks always see, need to be pointed out to us Mac-aholics. (There is the icon of a pencil writing on a paper in the bottom right of everyone's posts ... but clicking on it does ... nothing.)
tennisflyboy may not be "ducking" you. He may have a Mac.
Oh yeah. My rating is ... "H".
Separate names with a comma.