Who was better in their prime, Steffi Graf or Martina Hingis?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Tennis_Maestro, Apr 30, 2007.

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Who was the better Tennis Player both in their primes, Graff or Hingis?

  1. Graff

    91.1%
  2. Hingis

    8.9%
  1. backhander

    backhander Rookie

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    Well if you can use Graf's tabloid blackmail dilemna as an excuse to why she didn't win many slams from 1991-1993, I will mention what the tabloids did to Seles throughout the 1992 Wimbeldon, talking about her grunting and displaying gruntometers on the court, 2 players in the tourney also openly complained about it causing the umpire to ask Seles to tone down her grunting. Come the final Seles was hitting while suppressing her grunts, something she had done all her life. That pretty much explains the lopsided score. It was commented that the Seles in the final was definitely not the Seles that had won the first 2 slams of the year. Not to take anything away from Graf, she played great, but don't act as if Seles was not even close to accomplishing a Grand Slam, she was one match away.

    In any event, this thread is about Graf and Hingis, and I do say that Graf in her prime was better than Hingis in her prime. I think Hingis had the better tennis mind, she just didn't have the athleticism and weapons of Graf.
     
    #51
  2. laurie

    laurie Guest

    Honestly, I thought I was in www.wtaworld.com for a moment. Graf with her incredible forehand and athletic movement and great sliced backhand is legendary - she could also come over her backhand with topspin from time to time with great effect.

    What sort of crazy question is this??
     
    #52
  3. oscar_2424

    oscar_2424 Legend

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    i second that.
     
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  4. ilovecarlos

    ilovecarlos Professional

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    Uh, all I have to say is that my vote goes to Steffi.....no arguments or anything, is that ok?:confused:
     
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  5. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    Stop seconding whatever I say! Dammit! :D
     
    #55
  6. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    I totally agree about what the press did to Seles during that Wimbledon and her decision to NOT grunt affected her against Graf in the final.

    I also agree that Hingis had/has a great tennis mind kind of like Evert and Lenglen, but I don't think her groundstrokes were as good as Evert's particularly off the forehand side.
     
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  7. backhander

    backhander Rookie

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    Yah, the forehand I think really holds Hingis back, the different in pace from her backhand to her forehand is pretty big. She'd fare much better from the baseline if her forehand could be struck as hard and as clean as her backhand.
     
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  8. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Awwww!

    Simply watch (and listen to!) Seles at her 0-6 1-6 Wimbledon loss against Graf 2 years earlier.
    No grunting and screaming. Because she was thoroughly thrashed. She always was mute when she had no chance to win.
    Fact.

    Condi
     
    #58
  9. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    What do you know about the tennis mind of Lenglen?
    Tell us!

    Condi
     
    #59
  10. backhander

    backhander Rookie

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    Fact, Graf seemed to benefit alot from Seles forced misfortunes.
     
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  11. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Probably what any of us do that are still alive today. WHAT WE'VE READ ABOUT HER.
     
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  12. lambielspins

    lambielspins Banned

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    Seles would never have won the 92 Wimbledon final. If she could barely beat Graf 10-8 in the 3rd on clay a month before that, she was always going to be hard pressed to even get a set vs Graf on grass in the Wimbledon final.

    Actually the difference in their 92 matches at the French vs Wimbledon is about on par with 89:

    89 French Open semis: Graf defeats Seles 6-3, 3-6, 6-3. 89 Wimbledon 4th round: Graf defeats Seles 6-1, 6-0

    92 French Open final: Seles defeats Graf 6-2, 3-6, 10-8. 92 Wimbledon final: Graf defeats Seles 6-2, 6-1

    The grunting thing is a silly footnote for people bored and wanting something trivial to talk about.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2007
    #62
  13. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    I have never read anything special on her "tennis mind".
    She was by far the best tennis player in her time. The rest of the field consisted of some society girls. So she didn't need a great tennis mind. She sipped her cognac and went out to beat those chicks at will. Case closed.

    Condi
     
    #63
  14. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Here's a couple of things that I have read regarding Lenglen:

    "She is a brilliant court general, conducting her attack with a keen eye on both the court and the gallery." - excerpt from a book called 'The Art of Lawn Tennis' by William T. Tilden
    Yes THAT Tilden.


    Ted Tinling, in an article in World Tennis Magazine back in the 80's, said that Lenglen played tennis like a chessmaster. I believe it was the issue where he picked the greatest woman player of all time.

    So I am just reiterating what I've read.
     
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  15. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Which Tilden?

    Condi
     
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  16. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    Another attempt to deviate the attention from the subject. As usual ;)
     
    #66
  17. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    :cool:

    Condi
     
    #67
  18. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    Ahh don't worry. In verbal discussion, I tend to do the same thing. My father used to point me that out ;)
     
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  19. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Back to the subject:

    Graf in her prime was better than Hingis in her prime.


    Condi
     
    #69
  20. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    We already stated that :mrgreen:
     
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  21. rommil

    rommil Legend

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    That's her method of believing things Andy. She repeats ideas over and over again until she believes it and she tries to employ that to other people. Yes Condi, Graf was better than Hingis at their prime.
     
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  22. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    Even though I know I am getting suckered here I will nevertheless answer. The Tilden I am referring to is Bill Tilden the tennis player and contemporary of Lenglen, who is undisputedly regarded as the best player of his time and some people have even suggested he's the best ever to have played the game. I have a one word suggestion for you- Google.
     
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  23. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    What would I do without you ...

    :roll:


    Condi
     
    #73
  24. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    I can't believe that 5 people voted for Hingis who is a great player in her own right, but clearly not better than Steffi. That is just ridiculous. :roll: :roll: :roll:

    Maybe they did it just to upset you Condi. ;)
     
    #74
  25. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Obviously 5 true American patriots ...

    Condi
     
    #75
  26. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

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    But you're comparing Nav's doubles titles with Graf. I think it's implied this is a matter of singles.

    Graf has more singles slams and beat Navratilova in more slam finals.

    Graf won the grand slam, the ultimate tennis achievement.
     
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  27. laurie

    laurie Guest

    This had had 74 replies! Why?

    This shouldn't even be a discussion or have a poll.

    Anyone who really studies Tennis must know that Hingis in her prime was not better than Graf's.

    Graf took Womens Tennis to a new level with power, athleticism and courage, plus her legendary forehand.

    I struggle to think how Hingis moved Womens tennis to a new level, other than having a good Tennis brain - Anna Chakvetadze has a good Tennis brain. Hingis doesn't have either power or athleticism and was left behind by Venus, Serena, Capriati, even Davenport (who had worse movement but much more power), then the two Belgians and the young Russians. Plus Hingis lost the 1999 French Open final against Graf when she was a set and a break up - Graf at that point hadn't won a slam since 1996. Not only that but just a month later Lindsay Davenport would not make the same mistake against Graf in the Wimbledon final.

    I'm sorry to say Hingis fans but this is not worth discussing.
     
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  28. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    We have to grant Hingis, though, that Graf was far more motivated in the FO final than in Wimbledon. And we must not forget that Graf clobbered Davenport in the FO quarters.

    Condi
     
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  29. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    Of course! Specially since Hingis is american!
     
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  30. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Consider how young Seles was in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 when she was CLEARLY the best player in women's tennis other than at Wimbledon.

    This goes back to the statement about competition ... Graf could not compare with Seles in those months between the 1990 Tour Championships and the stabbing in April 1993 ... even as young as Seles was, she was clearly the #1 player in women's tennis and this was AFTER Graf had had her best years in women's tennis in 1987-1989.
     
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  31. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    NOPE .... a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles, the undisputed #1 player in women's tennis at that time and winner of 10 of the previous 12 biggest titles in women's tennis (LITERALLY every major singles title from the Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 with the exception of Wimbledon).
     
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  32. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    But Graf won 2 of the previous 2 biggest titles in women's tennis.
    And beat Seles in 3 of 5 matches.
    That alone prevents Seles from being called "dominant" even in 91-93.

    So we can conclude that even at her highest peak and in Graf's deepest slump Seles was not able to dominate against Graf.


    Condi
     
    #82
  33. CEvertFan

    CEvertFan Hall of Fame

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    She indirectly dominated against Graf the same way Graf indirectly dominated against Martina because Steffi wasn't even making it to the finals to face off against Monica and the same thing was happening with the Martina/Steffi rivalry in the late 80's. Martina couldn't even make it to the finals to face Steffi more often than not. It's a big part of the reason that Martina and Steffi only played each other 18 times as opposed to a truly great rivalry ala Evert/Navratilova which stands at 80 matches.

    If you are the #1 or #2 seed in a tournament and you haven't made it to the final then you haven't done your job.
     
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  34. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Yet, Seles CLEARLY was the best tennis player in the women's game for the first half of the 1990s until she was stabbed by a fan of Steffi Graf
     
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  35. EZRA

    EZRA Rookie

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    Federer has a losing record against NADAL yet he's not in a slump.
     
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  36. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Of course, she was ... and Graf was #1 in women's tennis until Seles came and replaced her as #1 ... and Seles was #1 with no end in sight until one of your people stabbed Seles in the back with a knife after Seles had dominated 1991, 1992 and into 1993.
     
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  37. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Well, that's the point:
    Graf had made 15 of 16 major finals between winter 1987 and spring 1990.
    In spring 1990 the Graf Blackmail Scandal began.
    And Graf made only 4 of 12 major finals until end of 1992.

    Of course the second-best player profited big-time ...


    Condi
     
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  38. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Steffi won 11 Slams since the stabbing of Monica Seles.

    Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.

    Monica Seles was never the player after her return that she was before the stabbing ... and anybody who has paid attention to tennis in these last 15 years would know that.

    The only Slam that Graf had a good chance of winning with Seles in the form she was in during those years 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing was Wimbledon .. so, a good argument could be made that Graf at her best and Seles at her best throughout the 1990s would have brought Graf only a total of 14 Slam -- the 9 Slams Graf won before Seles' dominance began + the 5 Wimbledons Graf won after Seles' dominance began.
     
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  39. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    The end was clearly in sight.
    Seles had a 58 pts. advantage in the rankings at the beginning of 1991.
    In April 1993, just before the stabbing, only 21 pts.
    Graf was closing the gap rapidly.

    Seles's winning percentage had dropped considerably in the last 12 months before the stabbing (only 92 % compared to 94 % the year before).

    OK, we can say that maybe Seles would have been able to stem the tide. Her performance post-95 (when she was in peak prime tennis age) suggests otherwise, though ....

    Condi
     
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  40. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Nope ... Steffi did not do this SINCE 1993.

    Did you know that Seles won 10 of the 12 major titles between the 1990 WTA Tour Championships and the 1993 Australian Open before a Graf fan got tired of Seles being the #1 player in women's tennis and literally stabbed Monica Seles in the back with a sharp knife?

    Graf lost to several different players to keep her from meeting up with Seles in most of those finals -- but it really did not matter which players beat Graf before the final rounds ... Seles was there to win the tournaments.
     
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  41. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    And the reason for this is .... ????? Navratilova and Evert were in their 30s and losing a step or two as they were getting closer to retirement when Graf was able to win in 1987-1989 without having to come across Monica Seles at her peak .... Seles at her peak was better than Graf had been at her peak in that short window of time in the late 1980s between Navratilova and Evert dominating into the their 30s during the mid 1980s and their retirements.
     
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  42. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    1990 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
    1991 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
    1991 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
    ............................................................. Seles skipped the 1991 Wimbledon.
    1991 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
    1991 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
    1992 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
    1992 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
    ............................................... Seles was runnerup at the 1992 Wimbledon.
    1992 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
    1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION

    Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place.

    The ONLY way for someone to have retaken #1 from Seles was death of Seles or a career-ending injury, stabbing, accident, or terminal and career-ending illness.

    Enter Gunther Parche.
     
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  43. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Monica won 8 slams since the Graf Blackmail Scandal started.

    Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Graf competing before or after Steffi was derailed royally by the ugly scandal. That would leave Monica with 4 (of which she won 1 in 96 because Graf was out due to injury).

    Seles's career was kick-started by the Graf Blackmail Scandal. Without it she would have been some sort of Mandlikova or Sanchez - a pain in the ass for the greats but not a really great player.

    Condi
     
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  44. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

    Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

    Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

    With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a fan of Graf's took a gun to Seles' head -- or a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.
     
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  45. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Seles vs. Graf 1991-93:
    2-3 H2H
    0-2 Wimbledon wins

    Sorry, most certainly not "easily" the best.
    And that although Graf had a negative H2H against grandma Navi in those years .... :D :D :D

    Condi
     
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  46. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    HERE is how far they were apart: MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIPS

    SELES WON________________GRAF WON

    1990 WTA Tour Championships
    1991 Australian Open
    1991 French Open
    _________________________ 1991 Wimbledon
    1991 U.S. Open
    1991 WTA Tour Championships
    1992 Australian Open
    1992 French Open
    __________________________ 1992 Wimbledon
    1992 U.S. Open
    1992 WTA Tour Championships
    1993 Australian Open
     
    #96
  47. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    Sure, as a teenager some 5 years younger than Graf in the early 1990s Monica Seles was CLEARLY the #1 player in women's tennis -- not only in the rankings, but also in her winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis during the span of November 1990 through the April stabbing of Seles by a jealous Graf fan.

    What part of this are you missing, Gunther/Condi?
     
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  48. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    The point is that without the nasty Graf Blackmail Scandal of 1990/92 Graf would have continued to win 3 or 4 slams every year until the end of her career in 1999. Steffi would have ended it with about 45 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

    Condi
     
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  49. Condoleezza

    Condoleezza Banned

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    Question: What does winning an event have to do with winning it in the next years?
    Answer: Almost nothing.

    Condi
     
    #99
  50. ATPballkid

    ATPballkid Professional

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    The fact remains Seles won 10 of the 12 major singles titles before a Graf fan LITERALLY resorted to stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

    Pretty sad for Graf and her fans to have that as such a huge part of her history.
     

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