Who was number 1 for 1970?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Apr 17, 2009.

  1. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,548
    My pick was Laver because of winning far more titles than anyone else - 15 in total, plus strong winning records against his two main rivals that year - Rosewall (head to head for year 5-0 in Laver's favour), Newcombe (head to head for year 3-0 in Laver's favour).

    The main reason for picking Rosewall or Newcombe, was that they won Grand Slam titles but Laver didn't. (Newcombe winning Wimbledon and Rosewall winning the US Open). Laver did poorly in those two events

    However, a case could be made that Laver won an equivalent to a Grand Slam that year.

    IN 1970 the Australian Open wasn't available for all people to play. However, there was the
    1970 Dunlop International final between Laver & Rosewall which Laver won.

    I am wondering therefore if the 1970 Dunlop International final was considered a replacement for the Australian Open, at the time.
     
    #1
  2. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    230
    i agree laver was the no1 in 1970. the dunlop open was in some of the aussie press as the real aussie open in 1970. players who played the dunlop but not the official aussie included laver, rosewall, nastase, gonzales, gimeno ,stolle, emerson and riessen. all the top playes who entered the real aussie also entered the dunlop.


    i see you are a great fan of laver, rosewall and hoad. i think i also read that you are from new zealand

    in feb/march 1964 laver, rosewall , hoad and andersen played a round robin tour of new zealand with each playing 12 matches. the final result was :

    hoad 7-5
    laver 7-5
    rosewall 6-6
    andersen 4-8

    do you have any information or access to the indvidual results.

    jeffrey
     
    #2
  3. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,548
    Australian Open 1970 - was the Dunlop the true Aussi open?

    (Jeffrey - I'll see what I can do....)

    My purpose in creating the thread was that for those who don't agree that Laver was the number 1 for 1970 - their argument was that he didn't win a major that year.

    My Argument was that the Dunlop in Sydney that year really was the true Australian Open (I know not officially, but all the good players from the Australian Open were there at the Dunlop plus the top players missing from the official Australian Open).

    Hence, Laver has a major (albeit unofficial) and because he won a lot more tournaments in total than Rosewall or Newcombe (perhaps more than them both combined ?) then really he is a undisputed number 1 for 1970.
     
    #3
  4. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,548
    Newcombe, Rosewall

    I just checked and Newcombe only won 2 tournaments that year (one was Wimbledon though. The other was a very minor tournament). And Rosewall won 6 (one was the US Open).

    Compared to Laver's 15 tournament wins (including as I have said 'the true though unofficial' Australian Open ie the Dunlop in Sydney), why is there any debate as to Laver being the number one in 1970 ?
     
    #4
  5. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5,639
    Well said.
     
    #5
  6. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,411
    That was a weird year. Laver was definitely considered the best player in the world by the majority of players and people but he didn't do well in the majors. I suppose if they had an ATP computer rankings in those days Laver would have been number one but they have different standards for ranking players and Laver blew it in the majors.
     
    #6
  7. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    I have been persuaded that Laver (and not Newcombe) was the better no. 1 for 1970.

    Would Rosewall be no. 2?
     
    #7
  8. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2005
    Messages:
    4,374
    In his book of 2002, Newk himself thinks, that Laver was the best in 1970. He writes, that he told him that years later, by the earlier time he was afraid to give Laver a glimpse of his own (Newk's)uncertainty about his status.
     
    #8
  9. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    jeffrey's 1970 and 1971 rankings with his own methodology :
    1970 : 1. Laver 1095, 2. Rosewall 865
    1971 : 1. Laver 938, 2. Rosewall 818
    (See : http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3146905&postcount=292)

    jeffrey's 1970 and 1971 rankings with my approach (I grant many more points for majors (equivalent to the modern Slam tourneys) and for final wins) :
    1970 : 1. Laver 1072, 2. Rosewall 1028 (see in "Tennis before 1919" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:World_number_one_male_tennis_player_rankings/Archive_2)
    1971 : 1. Laver 938, 2. Rosewall 818 (see in http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3146905&postcount=317)

    The only reservation I have, not to claim myself Laver #1 in 1970 and 1971 (ahead of Rosewall each year) at 100%, is that I haven't made my own point system, my estimation and I haven't checked jeffrey's estimations.
    But save for that I wholly concur with jeffrey on that point.
     
    #9
  10. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,548
    True Australian Open

    Thanks

    What are your thoughts about regarding the Dunlop at Sydney on par with a major that year (since it was more hotly contested that the official Australian Open)?
     
    #10
  11. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Hello timnz,
    well hard to say, some consider it as the unofficial Australian Open and apparently others seemed to have forgotten that tourney but contrary to the official Australian Open there were at least the NTL pros (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Emerson, Gimeno, Stolle) and in that event Ashe, the Australian titlist was beaten. And even Nastase who usually never came Down Under entered the Dunlop Open. Nasty only came back in Australia in 1981 when he was well past his prime.
     
    #11
  12. Borgforever

    Borgforever Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,564
    Well, Ilie Nastase also lost the YEC/GP Masters final at Kooyong in late 1974 to Guillermo Vilas 7-6, 6-2, 3-6, 3-6, 6-4...
     
    #12
  13. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Yes I should have told in a traditional tournament with eliminating rounds.
    What does mean "YEC" ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
    #13
  14. Borgforever

    Borgforever Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,564
    Year End Championship since nowadays Masters is a lot of tourneys and not the season finale tourney thing. Avoid confusion. If that's ever possible in the tennis world... :)
     
    #14
  15. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Newk won 4 tourneys in 1970 :

    12-18 january Melbourne Victorian Open (Australie), Grass : Tony Roche 6-4 6-4 4-6 ab.
    2-7 june Casablanca/WCT Morocco Open (Maroc), Clay : Andres Gimeno 6-4 6-4 6-4
    22 june-4 july Wimbledon (Angleterre), Grass : Ken Rosewall 5-7 6-3 6-3 3-6 6-1
    13-19 july Hoylake Rothmans Open North, Grass : Owen Davidson 4-6 9-7 6-4
     
    #15
  16. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,548
    4 Tournaments for Newcombe

    The Wikipedia site only lists the two of them. Who is up for updating the wikipedia site?

    Thanks for the info :)
     
    #16
  17. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    I believe the statistics convincingly demonstrate that Laver is definite for no. 1 in 1970.

    I think the more controversial year is 1971.
     
    #17
  18. Borgforever

    Borgforever Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,564
    Yes, I agree. 1970 is a super-weird year but I must contend that I think there's uncontestable reason for Laver as alone No. 1 that year. I'm totally convinced. Jeffrey's and Carlo's arguments made it brilliantly clear to me that the only fair judgment on who the top man was in 1970 and that was Rod Laver from Rockhampton in Queensland, Australia -- principally for his limitless dominance in tourney wins (what 10-12 more tourneys than his main rivals Ken and Newk?! Stunning!) plus his dominant Dunlop-bullseye which was brim-filled with greats in the field and the real Aussie Open that year so Rod had one bigass major in the bag back in 1970. And he had H2H dominance against his main rivals in major numbers with no viable excuses for them...

    Plus Newk backing up the claim years later when the smoke had cleared. Newk's no liar...

    Clear-cut Rod Laver for his 7th straight year as World No. 1 in 1970. The only stain on The Rocket that year is his weak GS-tourney record. I forgive him for that just because he was so insanely dominant EVERYWHERE else.

    I do credit Newk and Kenny enormously though and they are joint No. 2's in my book. In a normal era either Newk or Ken would've been probable and easy No. 1's but this was an era of unimaginable talent at the highest level (in my book 1950 to 1974 was the most competitive era before or since because of so many unbelievable players). For me Newk's Wimby victory is just fantastic over a defiant Rosewall. Kenny's achievement there and elsewhere was just as great. He was dang 36!

    So being year end No. 2 can be a real prize if your perfs are really impressive in themselves. Super-great, unforgettable No. 2's always worthy of mention? Borg in 1981, Mac in 1980, Lendl in 1984, 88 and 89, Becker 86, Nadal 2005-07, Connors 1975, 78, Sampras in 1999 (although I am so radical and insane that I have Sampras as co-No. 1 with Andre that year -- so sue me! Making Sampras seven years straight No. 1 in my book). What No. 2 means is only that you are extremely close to being Numero Ono on the planet with the tennis joy-stick -- if you're impressive that is...

    In 1971 I have triple No. 1's -- a weaker Laver, Newk and Rosewall -- pretty much equal. I don't mind this at all. It could be so. They each had something on the other and everybody was fantastic when they reached their apex that year. These guys are just incredible players so I feel it's unfair to tennis to degrade any of them when they seem to have equal, legitimate arguments for a fair shake as head honcho. So I actually have Rod Laver as No. 1 for eight straight years in the toughest era IMO...

    I count more points for Wimby than any other tourney. Depending on the field of course I count 4, 3, 2, 1 for Wimby (4=W 3=F 2=SF 1=QF) and for RG, USO and AO 3, 2, 1 (W=3, F=2, SF=1). Wimby is the biggest. The cathedral of tennis...
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
    #18
  19. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Rosewall's longevity at the highest levels of the game is indeed incredible, astounding, quite worthy of astonishment.
    You are quite astute in your evaluation my gentle friend. I cannot but agree.

    Another excellent reason that "Rocket" Rodney Laver is, hands-down, THE GOAT.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2009
    #19
  20. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    AndrewTas had gracefully given me many tournament final results and then I gave them to Jema974, a french colleague. Jema had listed those wins in the French site of wikipedia (and sometimes but not every time in the English one). So if you want more details on a player see the French version directly or by cliking the French link in the English version.
     
    #20
  21. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    230
    Hello everyone,

    1970:

    I am definitely not as positive as most of you are on this one...If I give the nod to Laver, it's only with great reluctance, given his dismal record in the 2 greatest tournaments.

    1970 was always especially tricky due to the divergence of opinion among sources. A natural attitude, when in doubt, is to read the newspaper of the time, to have a better grasp of what was considered to define greatness.
    But it's no help for that year. The Times of London clearly names Laver the uncontested world champion, focusing mainly on his domination in terms of prize money, which reflects his consistency. But on the other hand, some tennis authorities named Newcombe the number 1, implicitly giving great importance to the top tournament, and little to the non-major events.
    Rosewall seems like a 'mix' between the two approaches, with his near-perfect record in Wimbledon and the USO, and his moderate success in other events, that is why I often gave him the nod.

    However, Laver's victories in Philadelphia, Sidney, LA, Wembley, Johannesburg and the Queens are too much to argue, as these events were all quasi-Majors, probably more significant than our Masters 1000 today... I just wish that Laver could have for instance won the Masters, thus making our choice easier...

    1971:

    I'm not a big fan of ranking systems, as choices in the weight you attribute to events or the relative weight of round reached can change you leader board completely.
    Whenever I use them for tricky years, I am careful to test with different such factors to see if the outcome stays the same.

    I think that Jeffrey's system gave far too much weight to Finals and Semi-Finals. The approach I favour, as I have often said is: Victory=1000, Final=500, SF=250, etc.
    In the ATP system (up to 2009), a semi-final was worth 450 pts. Is it fair that reaching 2 semi-finals is almost the same as winning a tournament? I think not...
    This system is responsible for many bad-ranked years in my opinion (1998, 2003, for the most recent).

    Quick note:
    I don't think that the ATP rankings are necessarily bad per se, the problem is people using them as an indicator of historical judgment, which they are not designed too.
    When Carlo criticizes the fact that 2 Masters 1000 = 1 Grand Slam, he is obviously right from a long-term point of view, but it is not shocking to me that it is so on a week-to-week basis.
    Ranking points are the 'money' of the tennis world, and as any economy, this world is ruled by incentives. So the Grand Slam points must be
    a)high enough to give a sense of significance to fans and players, and be faithful to historical importance.
    b)be low enough so that players still have a strong incentive to play in lesser tournaments, for obvious financial reasons it is in the interest of the tour.


    To come back to 1971, the fact is that when using this 100-500-250 system, Laver is never the number 1, suggesting that he was fairly consistent but did not get enough victories in big events ( I used stats from the itftennis.com website and the WCT thread here, I admit I might have missed some).
    Newcombe is neck-and-neck with Laver at the beginning of the year, and is the top player after Wimbledon, but unfortunately did nothing afterwards.
    The 2 contenders for that year seem to be Rosewall and Smith.

    As I said, the choice of weight for different tournaments is what determines the winner, so in the end I guess this year is a matter of personal sensitivity. If you give the AO and Dallas full Slam status (ie equal to Wimbledon), Rosewall is ahead. If you judge these 2 a bit behind (like the Masters Cup is to the GS tournaments), and give Major status to the USO, Smith is number 1.
    Their only encounter was at Washington DC when Rosewall beat Smith in the SF...


    Jonathan
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
    #21
  22. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,411
    Not that this means much because my initial feeling is that Laver was NOT number one in 1971. However considering his astounding performance at the Tennis Champions Classic in which he won 13 without a loss against virtually all the top players, I would think that a healthy Laver, in 1971, if rested would be the player you would have picked in 1971 if you had a match to play for your life, with the possible exception if it was played on clay.

    I'm not talking about record here, I'm saying who would you want playing for you in one big match in 1971? If rested, I think Laver was still the best, for one match.
     
    #22
  23. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    I disagree a little. He didn't face all the top players but the top WCT players : he didn't face any independant pros in TCC in particular Smith, Nastase and Kodes. When he met them he lost to Kodes at Stockholm and Nastase at Wembley that year.
     
    #23
  24. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,411
    Didn't Laver defeat Kodes in the Italian Open final that year in straights sets also?

    Yes you're right but he did face Newcombe, Roche, Ashe, Okker, Ralston, Emerson and Taylor, some of them more than once. That's very tough opposition.

    My terminology was perhaps a bit off but my point was that Laver was able, with rest would still be perhaps the favorite against anyone in the world.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
    #24
  25. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Yes Laver beat Kodes at Rome but I wanted to say that no independant pros had the opportunity to meet Laver in the TCC though some of them could have beaten Rocket (I didn't choose Smith among the independant pros who defeated Laver in 1971 simply because in their only meeting Smith had ... lost to Laver at Washington).
     
    #25
  26. pc1

    pc1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    9,411
    Okay my friend. Incidentally I made a minor change in my last post in the 15 greatest players thread.

    I enjoy this debate in the other thread.
     
    #26
  27. Tomaz Bellucci

    Tomaz Bellucci Rookie

    Joined:
    May 14, 2008
    Messages:
    115
    Location:
    Sao Paulo, Brasil
    Laver for me, but not so clear
     
    #27
  28. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    I dont know who was #1 for the men that year but Margaret Court was by a huge margin the player of the year, far overshadowing what any man or women did that year.
     
    #28
  29. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    230
    reply to sgt john about 1971

    well i did the ranking system according to 2000-8 atp system and laver finished first a comfortable 100 points ahead of rosewall. I don't like 50% ratios at all and prefer 1,2,4,7,10 which was dfirst used back in 1959 and has survived more or less unchallenged to 2009 (the ltatest 2009 system is far closer to 1,2,4,7,10 than 50% ratios. if you reach 2sf in 32 man events you are winning six matches copared to 5 for winning one event so there's nothing wrong with 2sf being worse but close to another pkayer who wins an event and then loses in the 1st round of the other event.

    but the bottom line is that I did the rankings using 50% ratios (see 22nd feb post by me which uses the 50% approach)and laver still wins with rosewall still sexond; all it does is move smith definitely above newcombe and fairly close to rosewall but still number3. I also did my own ranking method which takes account of head to head results and laver is still the winner and rosewall still second; nastase rises to third given his 9 wins and 6 rus and fine head to head, although no where near the quantity of top class wins that laver achieved.


    jefffrey
     
    #29
  30. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    230
    Hi Jeffrey,

    I guess this means that we didn't use the same set of data for 1971...
    I used the itftennis.com data, which I reckon is probably very incomplete... Did you take yours in yearbooks or so?

    Jonathan
     
    #30
  31. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    230
    1971 data

    i count every competitive match i can find. that means using yearbooks,, some of the atp web site database (this has some stupid errors like 2 candian opens and a paris indoor event which did not exist in 1971 and is just a replication of the 1970 event which did exist), the itf database, french versions on wikki and newspapers of the time which is really the only reliable source for all matches. for instance i found that smith was runner-up in a 5 man bermuda roundrobin to van dillen and laver won the 4man cbs classic defeating okker and newcombe.


    jeffrey
     
    #31
  32. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Pretty convincing if you do it both ways, and Laver comes out on top either way.

    I guess this gives Laver 8 straight years.
     
    #32
  33. SgtJohn

    SgtJohn Rookie

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2006
    Messages:
    230
    I don't want to seem to nitpick, but again, just adding tournaments can be deceptive. What factor is used between "Super 9"-like events and Grand Slams ? 2? 4? 10? How many 'best events' are counted?

    If you count every event, whatever number the players took part in, you would invariably end up with, for instance, Lendl as #1 in 89, Vilas in 77 or Lendl in 1982, that are perfectly respectable choices, but many people with disagree with them, still...

    You understand I'm not a big fan of ranking points. I use them very often, but precisely I saw so many different outcomes when 'changing the rules' just a little, that their objectivity is no certain thing to me, and rational arguments seem to have more credit.

    However the early 70s are probably the years when I lack the most data, I don't have any yearbook, just the (incomplete) information from atpworldtour and itftennis, and extra data from this website, so I'm not calling out jeffrey's results either.

    Jonathan
     
    #33
  34. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2008
    Messages:
    230
    1971 rankings

    i use the ratios of 2000-8 when i do rankings based on the system of the last decade. Obviously you have to adjust for the reality of 1971 but the basic ratios stay same; carlo's approach does not make any difference to 1971 from using the sysyem of the last decade , which has the approval of the itf and atp and thus is always the base position. obviously i prefer my own approach counting head to head matches amongst the top players and not using the masters series/super 9 events, which gives points based on the quality of the field not actually who you beat.

    so the ratios between a top tier regular event and a true slam is 100:200 in championship race terms. 4:1 ratios have never been used anywhere but carlo's dumb approach ; if no governing body has ever used it its totally unacceptable to me and neither has any body in the last 50 years used 50% ratios; prize money might be split by 50% ratios but obvioulsly players and administrators reward players fairly in points sysyem and thankfully totally reject short term memory approach of just winning; a ru is fine achievement and winning 4 matches is not that different to winning 5.

    the system of the last decade is a best of 18 or could be expressed as 4 majors plus best 14 others. so that's the base poition and i have no problems getting results of ashe no1 in 1975, and becker no1 in 1989.


    jeffrey
     
    #34
  35. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    jeffrey's petty behaviour as usual
     
    #35
  36. Scott_tennis

    Scott_tennis New User

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    55
    Number 1 for 1970

    Does anyone have a full listing/roster of individual match results for Laver, Rosewall and Newcombe for 1970, inclusive of Grand Prix events, other open events, and all pro events including the Tennis Champions Classic?
     
    #36
  37. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    From AndrewTas's wonderful work,

    Rosewall's 1970 season :

    1970

    Tournaments Played 25
    Tournaments Won 6
    Tournaments Runner-Up 4 (includes Tennis Classic Final)
    Tournament Singles Win-Loss 71-21

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    February 2-8 1970
    Philadelphia PA U.S.A.

    R64 defeated Roy Barth 61 63
    R32 lost to Clark Graebner 63 62

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    February 12-14 1970
    WCT Miami USA

    QF defeated Ray Moore 61 75
    SF defeated Tony Roche 97 26 62
    F defeated Andres Gimeno 36 62 36 76 63

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    February 20-22 1970
    WCT Corpus Christi

    QF defeated Ray Moore 75 16 62
    SF defeated Butch Buchholz 36 64 76
    F defeated John Newcombe 62 60

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    March 1 1970
    Tennis Champions Classic Los Angeles

    RR lost to Emerson 75 46 75 64

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    March 4-7 1970
    Rothmans Indoor Professional Tournament Wembley London

    1R defeated Dennis Ralston 1012 86 108
    QF defeated Niki Pilic 108 97
    SF defeated Butch Buchholz 62 63
    F lost to Marty Riessen 64 62

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    March 16-22 1970
    Sydney Australia

    R32 BYE
    R16 defeated Frank SEDGMAN 46 97 64 86
    QF defeated Pancho GONZALES 60 108 62
    SF defeated Andres GIMENO 64 68 119 61
    F lost to Rod Laver 36 62 36 62 63

    MDF Rosewall/ Stolle defeated Bowrey/ Taylor 63 75

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    April 21-26 1970
    WCT Dallas USA

    R32 BYE
    R16 defeated Ray Moore 63 62
    QF defeated Marty Riessen 60 68 75
    SF lost to Roy Emerson 86 86

    MDF Emerson/ Jacques defeated Rosewall/ Stolle 64 63

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    May 6-10 1970
    WCT Atlanta

    R16 defeated Ismail EL SHAFEI 62 63
    QF defeated Marty RIESSEN 61 63
    SF lost to Dennis RALSTON 97 63

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    May 13-17 1970
    WCT Las Vegas USA

    R16 defeated Butch Buchholz 60 60
    QF lost to Tony Roche 61 36 61

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    27 May 1970 to 01 June 1970
    WCT St Louis USA

    R32 BYE
    R16 defeated Mark COX 64 62
    QF defeated John NEWCOMBE 86 75
    SF defeated Fred STOLLE 62 61
    F lost to Rod Laver 6-1 6-4

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    June 3 1970
    Tennis Champions Classic New York

    RR defeated Fred Stolle 57 60 64 61

    RR defeated Tom Okker 62 64 62

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    June 5 1970
    Tennis Champions Classic New York

    SF defeated Roy Emerson 46 61 64 46 75

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    June 15-20 1970
    South of England Championships Eastbourne

    1R BYE
    2R defeated T Ulrich 63 61
    QF defeated Barry Phillips-Moore 64 62
    SF defeated Fred Stolle 62 119
    F defeated Bob Hewitt 62 61

    MDF Rosewall/ Stolle defeated RR Maud/ A Stone 63 75

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    June 22 – July 4 1970
    Wimbledon

    R128 defeated Colin DIBLEY 63 75 64
    R64 defeated Jean-Claude BARCLAY 62 61 63
    R32 defeated Terry ADDISON 62 64 60
    R16 defeated Tom GORMAN 62 62 36 75
    QF defeated Tony ROCHE 108 61 46 62
    SF defeated Roger TAYLOR 63 46 63 63
    F lost to John Newcombe 57 63 62 36 61

    MDF Newcombe/ Roche defeated Rosewall/ Stolle 108 63 61

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    July 6-11 1970
    Green Shield Welsh Open Newport GBR

    1R BYE
    2R defeated A Fine 60 60
    3R defeated B Bertram 46 62 62
    QF defeated Mark Cox 108 97
    SF defeated Owen Davidson 60 63
    F defeated John Newcombe 64 64

    MDF O Davidson/ Newcombe defeated Pilic/ Rosewall 64 64

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    July 16 1970
    Tennis Champions Classic New York

    Final lost to Rod Laver 64 63 63

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    July 20-26 1970
    GP/WCT Cincinnati USA

    R64 defeated Sutarjo SUGIARTO 62 63
    R32 defeated Jim MCMANUS 62 86
    R16 defeated Jaime FILLOL 62 40 retired
    QF defeated Clark GRAEBNER 63 61
    SF defeated Ilie NASTASE 60 63
    F defeated Cliff RICHEY 79 97 86

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    July 24 1970 to August 2 1970
    GP/WCT Louisville USA

    R16 defeated Pierre BARTHES 64 62
    QF defeated Roy EMERSON 64 61
    SF lost to Rod Laver 6-4 1-6 6-1

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    August 3-9 1970
    US Pro Championships, Boston USA

    R32 defeated Roger TAYLOR 62 64
    R16 lost to Cliff DRYSDALE 64 76

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    August 10-12 1970
    Mount Washington Invitational Bretton Woods NY

    SF lost to Roy Emerson 63 63

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    August 19-23 1970
    WCT Fort Worth USA

    R16 BYE
    QF lost to Andres GIMENO 63 62

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    August 24-30 1970
    Marlboro Open Championships Orange NJ

    1R BYE
    2R defeated Peter Curtis 64 62
    3R defeated Jean-Loup Rouyer 75 75
    QF defeated Andres Gimeno 64 62
    SF lost to Bob Carmichael 46 63 64 62

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    September 2-13 1970
    U.S. Open USA

    R128 defeated Robert POTTHAST 62 62 64
    R64 defeated Stanley PASARELL 64 62 60
    R32 defeated Charlie PASARELL 76 64 64
    R16 defeated Niki PILIC 75 67 76 64
    QF defeated Stan SMITH 62 62 62
    SF defeated John NEWCOMBE 63 64 63
    F defeated Tony ROCHE 26 64 76 63

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    October 19-25 1970
    Barcelona Spain

    R64 BYE
    R32 defeated Uriel Oquendo Snr. 64 61 61
    R16 defeated Patricio Rodriguez 64 63 63
    QF lost to Zeljko Franulovic 108 75 63

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    November 9-15 1970
    Paris Indoor

    R32 defeated Patrick Proisy 61 62
    R16 defeated Clark Graebner 36 64 64
    QF lost to George Goven 76 62

    MDF Rosewall/ Gonzales defeated Okker/ Riessen 64 76 76

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    November 16-21 1970
    Wembley

    R32 defeated Bob CARMICHAEL 68 98 75
    R16 defeated Niki PILIC 62 61
    QF defeated Pancho GONZALES 62 63
    SF lost to Cliff RICHEY 75 62

    MDF Rosewall/ Smith defeated Nastase/ Tiriac 64 63 62

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    November 22-29 1970
    Stockholm

    R32 defeated Jan KODES 63 64
    R16 defeated Jan LESCHLY 60 62
    QF defeated Mark COX 63 64
    SF lost to Stan SMITH 810 62 97

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    December 9-15 1970
    Masters Singles Japan

    RR lost to Stan SMITH 64 65
    RR lost to Rod LAVER 56 63 65
    RR defeated Arthur ASHE 63 64
    RR defeated Jan KODES 65 64
    RR defeated Zeljko FRANULOVIC 63 63
     
    #37
  38. Scott_tennis

    Scott_tennis New User

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    55
    1970 Details

    Thanks for the detailed Rosewall match information.

    Do you have comparable lists for Laver and Newcombe for 1970?
     
    #38
  39. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    No. If I had had it I would have given it.

    However I have the following incomplete results about 1970 Newcombe's record :

    24 tournaments and a little pro Australian tour January 4-8, where Newcombe ended 2nd behind Roche and ahead of Pilic, Okker and Taylor (I've got the results somewhere but not to hand)
    - Victorian-Melbourne (ended on January 18 ) victory over Roche
    - Australian Open-Sydney (ended on January 26) defeat in the quarterfinals against Ralston 19-17 20-18 4-6 6-3
    - Philadelphia (ended on February 8 ) : defeat in the semifinals against Roche 6-0 6-3 6-4
    - Corpus Christi (February 20-22) : defeat in the final against Rosewall 6-2 6-0
    - London Royal Albert Hall (March 4-7) : defeat in the round of 16 (1st round) against Riessen 3-6 14-12 6-3
    - Dunlop Open Sydney (March 16-22) : defeat in the round of 16 (2nd round) against Gimeno
    - Dallas (ended on April 26) defeat last 16 against Gimeno
    - Atlanta (May 6-10) : defeat in semifinals against Okker 2-6 10-8 6-1
    - Las Vegas (probably May 13-17) : lost to Emerson qf
    - Tennis Champion Classic (January 31, Detroit beaten by Gonzales 6-4 6-4 6-2, May 21 West Orange, beaten by Rosewall 5-7 7-5 6-1 6-2)
    - St Louis (May 27 - June 1) : defeat in the quarterfinals against Rosewall 8-6 7-5
    - Casablanca (June 2-7) victory over Gimeno
    - Bristol (June 8-13) defeat in the semifinals against Pilic 4-6 14-12 8-6
    - Queen's (June 15-20) defeat in the final against Laver 6-4 6-3
    - Wimbledon (ended on July 4) : victory over Rosewall
    - Newport (UK) (July 6-11) defeat in the final against Rosewall 6-4 6-4
    - Hoylake (July 13-18 ) victory
    - Louisville (July 28 - August 2) : defeat in the final against Laver 6-3 6-3
    - Boston-US Pro (ended on August 9) : defeat in the round of 32 (1st round) against Graebner 6-2 6-4
    - Fort Worth (ended on August 23) : defeat in the semifinals against Emerson 8-6 7-5
    - US Open (ended on September 13) : defeat in the semifinals against Rosewall 6-3 6-4 6-3
    - Pacific Southwest-Los Angeles (ended on September 27) : defeat in the final against Laver 4-6 6-4 7-6
    - Vancouver (ended on October 4) : defeat in the quarterfinals against Gimeno 6-3 6-3
    - Midland (October 8-11) : defeat in the final against Taylor 2-6 7-6 6-1
     
    #39
  40. Scott_tennis

    Scott_tennis New User

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2008
    Messages:
    55
    Laver record for 1970?

    Carlo - Thanks for posting the Rosewall results (courtesy of AndrewTas) and the Newcombe results for 1970. I hope that you or AndrewTas have the full Laver match results for 1970 and can add to this thread. I recall seeing a Laver 1969 detailed match listing posted on a different thread in this forum and hope that you can share a comparable list for 1970.

    I think that such a listing will help support to those who take the position that Laver should be considered as top rated for 1970.

    Thanks
     
    #40
  41. Dean

    Dean Rookie

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    105
    To say he 'blew it in the majors' is a little harsh, since in 1970 he wasn't allowed to defend his AO and FO wins from 1969.
     
    #41
  42. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    I did not know that Laver was barred in 1970. Please explain. Thank you.
     
    #42
  43. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    #43
  44. Carlo Giovanni Colussi

    Carlo Giovanni Colussi Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2008
    Messages:
    527
    Hello hoodjem,

    None of the 6 NTL players (Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Emerson, Gimeno and Stolle) played the 1970 Australian Open because their boss, George McCall, and themselves, considered that the prize money was ridiculous : imagine that the ITPA tournament, the Philadelphia Open, that same year offered US $ 60,000 for 48 players while the Australian only US $ 10,760 (and for more players, 64).
    However the WCT players (Roche, Newcombe, Okker, ...) entered that Slam tourney.

    At the French this time the 32 WCT players (who then included the 6 NTL players) didn't enter.

    So Laver, Rosewall, Gonzales, Emerson, Gimeno and Stolle didn't play both the Australian and the French in 1970.

    In both Slam tournaments the organizers didn't accept to give the guarantees requested by the NTL then WCT organizations.
     
    #44
  45. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Messages:
    12,743
    Location:
    Bierlandt
    Ah, I see. Thank you. This explains a lot.

    Damn! Politics and tennis do not mix!
     
    #45
  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Rosewall has the best record: a title at Forest Hills and a lost final at the All England.He should be nº 1, even by a very close margin (Newcombe and Laver would also have a claim)

    For 1971, the battle was even more divided with 6-7 players winning the big events.A truly great year.
     
    #46
  47. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    9,277
    IMO, Laver was the de facto best player in the World for any one match, and the player I would bet on for any one match, through 1973.

    To understand Laver's record after 1969 you have to understand that: (1) Having won 2 Grand Slams despite being barred from the majors for 5 years of his prime, he felt that he had made his point about his dominance at the majors, (2) He knew he had a limited amount of time left in pro tennis to earn enough money to retire and decided to redirect his focus from the low paying majors to the higher paying pro events.

    That's why Laver's prize money dominance was considered an important measure of his greatness, as it still is in golf. If the majors were the highest paying events of that day, I suspect Laver would have remained focused on, and would have succeeded in, winning more majors.
     
    #47
  48. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    Are you talking about 1970 or rather 1971? WCT was not operative before 1971, the year that the pro players could play the majors except the french, because that dummy Chartrier banned them from the french.So, you must be refeering to 1971 rather than 1970.

    As a matter of fact, and here is where I am confused, I think Ashe, a WCT player reached the FO qf or sf in the 1970 event, so he was not barred - thus, rest of pro players shouldn´t-
     
    #48
  49. kiki

    kiki Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    18,714
    That is also what I think.AAMOF, laver himself wrotte in his biography something to that extent ( of course he was not so open about " going just for the money", but you could feel he had definitely set a line in his approach tot ennis and, clearly, majors were behind that line and big money was his goal)
     
    #49
  50. Dean

    Dean Rookie

    Joined:
    May 31, 2007
    Messages:
    105
    With grand slams mostly out of the picture he concentrated on the big money equivalents of the 9 Masters1000 events where he won 5 of 9 during 1970. 31 years before Djokovic did the same.
     
    #50

Share This Page