who wins - male 4.0 vs female 5.0

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by luvforty, Mar 28, 2013.

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who wins

  1. 4.0 man

    20 vote(s)
    31.7%
  2. 5.0 woman

    43 vote(s)
    68.3%
  1. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    middle of the pack men's 4.0 vs. middle of the pack women's 5.0

    none of that rising / falling stuff.

    vote away!

    results will be calibrated against the fact that there are more more egomaniac men on this forum than there are women (who are usually more reasonable than men).
     
    #1
  2. PureAlph4

    PureAlph4 Semi-Pro

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    Are you absolutely sure this has nothing to do with Krumm, or even Bunge for that matter?

    Surely this question ends up being analogous to that 'debate,' seeing as the postulation seemed to be that a WTA top 75 pro was around the standard of a male 6.0 / rising 5.5. Regardless, I think we all already know who this thread will really end up being about, and that's what makes it worthwhile...
     
    #2
  3. esgee48

    esgee48 Hall of Fame

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    Seen the women's team of USF and their opponents out here at GGP. They are hard hitting, hard serving 5.0's (not sure they could beat Cal or Stanford women's teams, which is why I think they're 5.0') Anyway, they would wipe the average 4.0 male pretty easy. Seen men's 5.0 players and they hit harder than these women, but not sure they could beat them from the baseline that easily. However, against 4.0 men, the men would be eating bagels and breadsticks.
     
    #3
  4. Xizel

    Xizel Professional

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    The difference is exponential as the skill level goes up. The ATP tour is very extreme. I'd say 5.0 female.
     
    #4
  5. The Meat

    The Meat Hall of Fame

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    Men become dangerous at 5.0 and higher, so do women. Now a 4.0 women and a 3.5 man, that's what's up.
     
    #5
  6. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    5.0 woman, if she's a Div11 player, is trained, in shape, get's coaching, is serious.
    4.0 man can be a slob like me, out of shape, injured, play occasionally, and won't run for 6+ shot points.
     
    #6
  7. ShoeShiner

    ShoeShiner Rookie

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    This is rec vs rec comparison. Not pro vs rec comparison, that is so much different conditions.
     
    #7
  8. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Let's consider....
    What it takes to be a 4.0 mens....3 years of tennis, a little athletics, good hand eye coodination, some movement...
    What it took to make 5.0 womens....5 years of tennis, at least 3 competitive, lots of tourneys, lots of tourney wins, a whole bucketLOAD of male players hoping to hit with her, free coaching, availible hitting partners at a moment's notice.
    Who wins?
     
    #8
  9. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    The average male, slight overweight is superior in every athletic category compared to women.

    The fast women in the world is no match for the average man. The average man can pole vault, swim across the English channel faster than the best woman. Any man can complete the marathon faster than the fastest woman.

    This is obvious, why are well discussing this?
     
    #9
  10. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Actually, in very long distance swimming, women often do better.
     
    #10
  11. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    I voted for the 4.0 male, but really I have no idea. It's an objectively testable question ... and an interesting one, imho.
     
    #11
  12. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Hey Dennis! How's it going? What you say is true, but it's an open question because we're considering a 4.0 male vs a 5.0 female. I have no idea what the outcome would be, but would love to see such a match played (and, of course, recorded on video). I'm going to see what I can do to make something like this happen around here. Probably will be more like a 3.5 male against a 4.0 to 4.5 female, as I don't know any 5.0 women yet.

    Interestingly, I, a 3.0 male, lost the only match I've had against a female. She's 35 years younger than me, has a 3.5 woman's NTRP-based rating, and played college tennis.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2013
    #12
  13. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    A couple years ago I saw a TW poster play a match against a 5.0 woman.
    The TW poster was faster, had a bigger forehand and serve, more spin
    but worse placement, worse backhand, worse placement, worse mental game,
    less competitive, high pressure experience.

    He hit several winners but she pushed him around the court and her
    serve placement neutralized him. She won the first set 7-5 and then he
    gave up/defaulted because he was frustrated, pissed, and worn out from
    being run around the court. I think she had some college tennis and
    tournament experience. The guy? park tennis and USTA 4.0 league.
     
    #13
  14. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Interesting. The more I think about this, the more I want to change my vote.
     
    #14
  15. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    surely someone could test this?!

    if i were a betting man, i'd put my money on the 5.0 woman. there will be much more pressure on the guy and at the rec level players can't handle pressure.
     
    #15
  16. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    It already happened. I saw a 4.0 TW poster play a 5.0 woman a couple years
    ago. 5-7, default.

    (see my post above for details)
     
    #16
  17. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    A 4.0 guy can hit with some pretty speed and pace but I don't think they have the consistency, placement, or mental game to win against a 5.0 woman.
     
    #17
  18. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    I think the woman wins most times. I've been in a similar situation myself, playing a very good junior that is probably a 5.0 woman. They are just so consistent. You have to totally junk up the match to have a chance (as a 4.0).
     
    #18
  19. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I am a fairly high 4.0 man. I haven't played a match against 5.0 women, but I am in a drill session where the pro brings his daughter sometimes. She is like 15, top 10 in sectional ranking, and placed 3rd (?) in the high school state singles tounament, so I'm guessing that translates to about a 5.0 rating for adults. If we played a match, I'm guessing she would beat me, but not a complete blow out. Our regular strokes were comparable, but her finishing shots and movement/footwork were much better than mine. I think I served slightly better.
     
    #19
  20. The Meat

    The Meat Hall of Fame

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    What was the scoreline?
     
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  21. krz

    krz Professional

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    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
    #21
  22. President

    President Legend

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    5.0 woman EASILY IMO, sorry to burst a lot of your bubbles but 4.0 is a pretty pathetic level.
     
    #22
  23. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    #23
  24. The Meat

    The Meat Hall of Fame

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    Is this your image of a 4.0 player?
    [​IMG]

    I've seen this kind of 4.0 Player before. :)
    [​IMG]
     
    #24
  25. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    This is an unfair comparison. Maj conference D1 is at least 5.5, and yes, they would crush any 4.0 male. D3 is 5.0 according to the self-rating guidelines.

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/ExperiencedGuidelines_02142011_V2pdf.pdf

    Here is a more representative video of D3 women.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqYzcWaqn5c

    The level is A LOT closer to men's 4.0, although still a little better than almost all mens 4.0 rec tennis.

    EDIT: Watching Ms Greenberg is mesmerizing (@2:55...).
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
    #25
  26. goran_ace

    goran_ace Hall of Fame

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    At my club there's a girl who currently plays DIII and she plays mixed dubs and also hits with guys who are 4.0ish. She destroys them. It's not about power, she's so much steadier. She can handle your power and send it right back. She moves it around and doesn't miss and while the 4.0 males usually get caught up in trying to hit harder and harder and eventually their game implodes.
     
    #26
  27. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    It was a Tennis Fort Lauderdale league match. She kindly consented to play a 10 game pro set because of my age. Beat me 10-3. She has really nice strokes, including a very accurate 2HBH, and can run like the wind. I hope to play her again during our upcoming Spring Season.

    Because I've improved somewhat since I first played her, especially in serving, I'm predicting that she'd only beat me about 10-6 or 10-7 now. But we'll probably play best two out of three sets, so I suppose she'll probably win something like 3 and 3, or 4 and 4. It will be a good test for me if and when I get back to full strength.

    EDIT: It just occurred to me that she's probably improved since I first played her also (having just returned to competitive play last year after being away from tennis for several years). So, lets see, yeah I'll probably be lucky to get a game or two per set off her. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
    #27
  28. slowfox

    slowfox Professional

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    #28
  29. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    The first two guys look way better to me than the second two. I think the woman that beat me 10-3 would beat either of the second two guys, but maybe not the first two.

    The woman (she's 30) that beat me 10-3 is, I think, a bit better than the players at 2:25 (in the second vid). I don't think those women would beat either of the first pair of guys, but I think they would beat either of the second pair of guys.

    As for that second pair of USTA 4.0 guys. They seem more like the 3.5 guys in my league. I think the 4.0 guys in my league would beat them no problem.

    But this is all just unqualified guessing on my part. Really, being a very inexperienced player myself (although I've watched tennis throughout my life), I have no well formed (or very informed) opinion on this.

    But I'll go out on a limb and say that I think that the best women players you video showcased would kick butt. :)
     
    #29
  30. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I'm not sure if you really understand what you are looking at. The point that started at 2:25 was a 19 shot rally that ended with a backhand overhead angle winner. I don't remember any rally in the first 4.0 vid going more than 4 shots maybe? Those girls would destroy either of the guys without even breaking a sweat.
     
    #30
  31. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    I think some of it depends on the 4.0 man's game, or even the 5.0 woman's game for that matter. I've known some 4.0 men player's with huge serves, which could definitely equalize the match. Or if the 4.0 player plays serve and volley.

    Overall, I'd be inclined to say that the 5.0 woman would generally be the better player.
     
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  32. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The next point is a 23 shot rally, and, again, no UFE. These two girls are WAY better than you guys are giving them credit for just because they're not smashing the hell out of every shot.
     
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  33. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    But aren't these women Division I and most likely 5.5 players, not 5.0?
     
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  34. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Yes, they are. I mentioned that in my first post in this thread and linked to a D3 video that should be more representative of 5.0 and not a higher level. That is closer to the men's 4.0, but I still think slightly better.
     
    #34
  35. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    Agreed, though like I mentioned earlier I think some of it depends on the match up and style of players.
     
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  36. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    So how would a 4.5 male do against those 5.5 Girls.....?
     
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  37. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    agreed - but, in order not to fall into a similar trap like the rising/falling thing, let's just say you get 100 4.0 men to play 100 5.0 women, which group wins more?

    this should take match up etc all out of the picture.
     
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  38. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    Hmm....I'm a 4.5 but am out of shape and mostly play doubles these days. Honestly it would depend on how they return my lefty kick serve and adjust to my unorthodox style of play. I tend to hit flat, take the ball early, and play an aggressive all court game, typically looking to close into the net. If they could adjust to that style I would be in big trouble.

    But from my experience, most gals (even at 5.5) don't see that style all that often. I've played with a 5.5 gal in 10.0 Mixed quite a few years ago. She played at IU, great ground strokes and returns, but didn't have much of a net game. If I remember right, we lost to a strong 5.0 man and weaker 5.0 woman in a close contest.

    I'd say on the average, the 5.5 gal would win most of the time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
    #38
  39. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    5.0 women would win more often.
     
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  40. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    It does with the 4.0 vs 5.0 for sure. If you're talking about 4.0 vs the D1 girls, matchups are irrelevant. There is no 4.0 who would make them break a sweat, and no 4.0 who can hang in 20+ stroke heavy topspin rallies like that.
     
    #40
  41. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    I'm a 4.0. If those D1 girls hit to my forehand, I could certainly hang with them in a rally. However, they wouldn't, they'd hit to my backhand every time they could and it would get embarrassing!!
     
    #41
  42. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    No I was not making that comparison. D1 girl should beat the 4.0 every time, and most of the time it wouldn't be close.
     
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  43. MomentumGT

    MomentumGT Semi-Pro

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    I used to play a lot of mixed doubles leagues and usually a 4.5 female is roughly comparable to a 4.0 male.

    To try and answer your question Govnor, I'm a computer rated 4.5 player and a former D1 walk on over 10 years ago and I have coached a girl since she was 10 and now she has a full ride to a D1 school here in SoCal and was inside the top 100 G18s nationally and has beaten a few top 50 girls as well. I personally don't know if she WOULD be considered a 5.5 tho because I don't think I've actually seen a 5.5 woman that would admit that she was rated at that level and I'm terrible at rating people at that high a level lol.

    Anyways we played 2 sets last week and on the 1st set I got belted 3-6. I think I only held serve twice and I felt I was serving pretty well lol :/. I was getting pressured on my FH side and making a lot of UEs and that is currently my go to wing. 2nd set I won 6-4 but I made several adjustments and lowered my UEs considerably. If it was an actual best 2 out of 3 set match I don't think I had enough left to take the 3rd set and could easily have lost it 2 or 3.

    -Jon
     
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  44. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, it was more Tom, who said he didn't think the D1 girls could beat the 4.0s in the first video even though they went 20+ shots each without a UFE where the 4.0s made an error every other shot. LOL.
     
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  45. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Not for that many shots with that heavy topspin. They could stand there and hit all day. If you're a 4.0, you would miss eventually, even if they hit only to your forehand. Even with 20+ stroke rallies with a lot of corner to corner movement, neither one made an error in either point in the video. Who knows how long it was going to be before one actually did miss a shot.
     
    #45
  46. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Thought it was a given the match is 4.0 man to 4.8 women, or about 8/10th difference. Could be 7/10th, of course....not a full point.
    D1 singles girl, a 5.5, kills any 4.0 man, would most likely beat most 4.5 men, unless they had at least two real weapons.
    JRB... bi weekly, I play with a couple of State ranked junior girls, top 10's. One plays 12's, the other 16's. Their DAD says the girls have no chance against me, a crippled, old, blind self admitted 3.5 singles player. The girls don't like it when I play for real either.
    However, I did USED to play A/Open NorCal mens, and have really lost only in running speed and direction changing.
     
    #46
  47. Govnor

    Govnor Professional

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    JRB - you can't pick out just one or two points! I just watched a Stanford vs USC women's match and it was absolutely full of UE's, off of not particularly great shots in the first place.

    However, I'm under no illusion about what my 4.0 butt could and could not do against 5.5 college girls, believe me!!
     
    #47
  48. krz

    krz Professional

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    haha, fair enough, I may have went a little above 5.0. I think the guys here see a bunch of girls hitting moonballs and they automatically assume since, they hit harder, they are going to win.

    It's odd being on the other side of the fence. I'm usually the one laughing at those who think Serena would beat an ATP player...
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
    #48
  49. krz

    krz Professional

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr8ejdkD-5Q :D

    ?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
    #49
  50. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    Those are the only two points in the video from that match. How can I pick others? The other matches have UFEs, but the girls aren't pushing, either. People see the pushing and the moonballs and think that sucks but fail to see that they're hitting dozens of shots and running corner to corner without making ANY errors. And they still end the points with winners, it just takes more shots to set up.
     
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