Whos the toughest?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Tropikal_Knights, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. Tropikal_Knights

    Tropikal_Knights Banned

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    Mental toughness i.e.

    Fed, Nadal, Murray, Djoker.............

    In my mind it is Djoker.............even when he was not at his peak he used to give Fed a tough fight.........

    Him going for outrageous shots matchpoint down and 9 times out of 10 making them is exemplary.

    Some could make the case of Fed fighting back at his age to take on the young pretenders............
     
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  2. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Djokovic, clearly by his records since uso 2010
     
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  3. papertank

    papertank Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic's mental strength is actually a WEAPON for him, he not only doesn't choke on important points but players much better during them. Nadal on the other hand is strong in the way that he never gives less than 100%. He tends not to get the lapses in concentration that the other 3 get sometimes. Fed and Murray are less commendable, they can hold it together but there is nothing special about their mental strength.
     
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  4. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Rafael Nadal. The Rome finals of 2005 and 2006 are the best example. In the 2005 Rome final, Nadal trailed 0-3 (2 breaks) in the fifth set against Coria, and Coria had a game point on his serve for a 4-0 lead. Nadal came back to win in the fifth set tiebreak, although it took 4 championship points for Nadal before it ended. In the 2006 Rome final, Nadal trailed 1-4 (1 break) in the fifth set against Federer, saved 2 championship points when serving at 5-6 in the fifth set, and came back from 3-5 down in the fifth set tiebreak to win 4 points in a row and take the title.
     
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  5. rofl_copter3

    rofl_copter3 Professional

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    How is this a better example than all of Djokers match points down coming back to win? I'm not saying one guy is tougher than the other, but I fail to see how your example proves your arguement.
     
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  6. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    has to be either Federer or Nadal... The former brings it on key points nearly every time, the latter doesn't give up ever and fights until the end.

    Novak has improved a lot, but has had a history of mental weakness with his retirements and other antics.

    Murray still has a long way to go in this capacity and shouldn't even be in this discussion regardless of how highly he is ranked at the moment. There are many many players who are stronger than he is mentally, Ferrer, DelPotro, etc...

    If we include past players Sampras would rank very highly. The guy was cool. Tres cool.
     
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  7. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Yeah.

    Because turning the match on the surface, that suits your game the most, and, in the case against Federer, having a favourable match-up against your opponent, shows exactly that.
     
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  8. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Nadal and Djoko. That's why their clashes are so spectacular.
     
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  9. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree.

    My ranking is:

    1. Nadal
    2. Federer
    3. Djokovic
    4. Murray
     
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  10. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    How is Del Potro mentally stronger than Murray?
     
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  11. Fiji

    Fiji Legend

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    Since 2011 it's Djokovic.
     
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  12. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    in some ways he can afford to be as he can (usually) lean on his serve and big ground strokes to bail him out on key points: he has a simpler game.

    has Delpo ever had something approximating Murray's 'feather' incident at the Australian Open? Also, i think Delpo's calm nonchalant demeanor help him stay focused. He is rarely flustered unless he makes a very silly mistake, then he moves on quickly. Murray seems to have more of a negative internal (often external) dialogue with himself. He has improved a lot and he is young enough to change. I just don't think he's at the level of some of the other players on tour.

    Perhaps Delpo wasn't the best example, but i still think he is a level of toughness above Murray at the moment, though still short of others like Ferrer, etc...

    Anyway, this Murray Vs. Delpo stuff reminded me of this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muM-UQc_Tnk

    neither of them seem very calm there...
     
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  13. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    Right now:

    1. Djokovic
    2. Nadal
    .
    3. Federer
    4. Murray

    Taking their entire careers into perspective:

    1. Nadal
    2. Federer
    .
    3. Djokovic
    .
    4. Murray
     
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  14. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Not sure, but then he's never got to play in the final of the Australian Open to find out ;-)

    The only players he's really not quite at the same mental level as are Djokovic, Federer and Nadal. Results speak for themselves. Murray has many more bigger titles than Delpo or any other player ranked below him (Nadal excepted of course). So if he IS mentally weaker than them in any way, it has certainly not held him back in achieving far more superior results!

    Actually, Delpo DOES seem the calmer whereas Murray is the one getting agitated. Nonetheless, guess who won the match? :)
     
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  15. xan

    xan Professional

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    can you honestly tell me you expect a reasonable reply after what you've just read?
    talking about it while taking examples from 8 year old matches is laughable at best.
     
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  16. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with that ranking, at least OVERALL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
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  17. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Yeah, the humongous advantage the ridiculously talented Federer, with his plan A, B, C and D over the one-dimensional no-talent Nadal. :shock:
     
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  18. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    Fed seems the toughest by a good margin.
    I used slams and not failing to get far in them as one criteria.

    Fed made 18/19 finals in slams and didn't let down mentally to make them for so long.

    Nadal would not keep his intensity, in the later parts of the year he would not stay tough.
    Djokovic is about the same as Nadal, has trouble keeping himself at top level through the whole year, even in 2011.

    1. Fed
    2. Djokovic/Nadal
     
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  19. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, that was the basis for my ranking.

    Right now I would say:

    1. Djokovic
    2. Federer
    3. Murray
    4. Nadal
     
    #19
  20. citybert

    citybert Professional

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    If the pain is true then it has to be nadal. you could be mentally tougher than your opponent and still lose the point. Just happens.
     
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  21. Talker

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    There are players less skilled that may be tougher than the top players, hard to tell when the skill level is lower.
     
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  22. NEW_BORN

    NEW_BORN Professional

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    Staying confident after a heart-breaking loss - Fed
    Staying upbeat, doesn't get down on himself in a match - Nadal
    Staying focused, taking massive risks when chips are down - The Djok
     
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  23. FormerNadalFan

    FormerNadalFan Rookie

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    I used to think Nadal topped the charts on metal toughness, but the tactical stuff (nice way of saying BS gamesmanship) he's been pulling over the last couple of years tells me that he's lost that mental edge.

    Right now, I'd say that the Djoker is winning in this category.
     
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  24. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Because 2011-2013 Djokovic is a lot more experienced than 2005-2006 Nadal. Before 2011, Djokovic was considered to be very suspect in the mental toughness stakes, very inconsistent due to physical ailments.

    Do you know how boring your snide comments have gotten? :roll:

    Have you heard of hindsight? You're using it. Don't do it. Nadal was an 18 year old who had never won a major when he beat Coria in the 2005 Rome final. At the time of the 2006 Rome final, Federer had 7 majors to Nadal's 1, and it was only their third match on a clay-court.
     
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  25. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    This made me spill my milk and I wasn't even drinking milk. :)
     
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  26. YouCantBeSerious

    YouCantBeSerious Banned

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    Staying hungry for haggis and a nice lager after an XBox game - Muzza.
     
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  27. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, you've nailed it :)
     
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  28. Fiji

    Fiji Legend

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    What a wonderful invention the Cvac is!
     
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  29. doobiedoodoo

    doobiedoodoo Rookie

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    Nadal for sure. Djokovic close second.
     
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  30. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

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    I don't get the arrogance. Even if you disagree with him, whats so utterly incomprehensible about thinking nadal is the toughest mentally?

    Everybody gets b!tchy of every little thing over here.
     
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  31. Mighty Matteo

    Mighty Matteo Semi-Pro

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    I think people underestimate federer's mental toughness because he does not show as much emotion on court as the other players. Certainly his consistency in the majors is reflective of his consistent attitude and mental toughness. The guy does not get as discouraged after his losses. He is the best front runner of the top 4, while Nadal is certainly the best at coming from behind in a match. Nadal is very tenacious and never gives up, however he struggles with nerves more than federer and djokovic and does not start as well in matches. Federer is probably the best at maintaining a lead and closing out matches so in my mind he is the most mental tough, which is reflected by his results. my order is
    1. Federer
    2. Nadal
    3. Djokovic
    4. Murray
     
    #31
  32. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    I am sure, that they seem boring/snide to you, because you are one unbiased and fair poster.

    :roll:


    In 2003 Nadal beat the reigning champion of RG Alert Costa at the tournament in Monte Carlo and 1998 RG champion Carlos Moya in Hamburg. By the matches you mention, he was an established claycourt player (reflected by his claycourt record, ranking and place in the Spanish Davis Cup team).

    So, I am not using a hindsight, and you, trying to show how much of a non-factor Nadal was on clay, just to boost his image as a mental giant in those particular instances, is laughable.

    I particularly enjoyed your "At the time of the 2006 Rome final, Federer had 7 majors to Nadal's 1" and " it was only their third match on a clay-court", having in mind, that none of those 7 Majors was on clay, Federer had won none of their matches on clay and Nadal was firmly established clay-court force by then. Forget the fact, that the unfavourable match-up was already evident (leading the H2H) .

    All in all, the way you use your "knowledge", to support your bias, is comical.
     
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  33. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    I disagree with the examples, he choose, to illustrate his point.

    I also do not see, how an absolutely valid remark can be taken for arrogance.

    FYIF. I think that anyone, who has managed to get to the top and stay there, is as tough as someone can be. Nadal included.
     
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  34. Flash O'Groove

    Flash O'Groove Hall of Fame

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    Great. And let's not forget that mental fortitude is also tied with overall abilities. Nadal, Nole and Fed all have more chance to succeed in the shot they choose to hit than Wawrinka like players.
     
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  35. Tropikal_Knights

    Tropikal_Knights Banned

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    It seems that Nole has the ability to raise his game on the biggest points...............

    Fed comes up with outrageous winners when he is match point down but also has the tendency to frame a few on big points or dump it in the net.....

    Nadal runs harder and faster when he is matchpoint down or breakpoints down......but the moment a challenger in Nole came on the scene he broke.........
     
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  36. xan

    xan Professional

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    inclined to agree.
     
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  37. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Show me somebody who's unbiased, whatever that means, and I'll show you a liar. People have their favourites or interests, so will be tinged by bias to some extent.
     
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  38. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    And you're not biased? You're one of the most biased, Nadal hating posters on this forum. Self-awareness is certainly not one of your attributes.
     
    #38
  39. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    As much as i hate to admit it, Djokovic is by and far the clutch player by miles as he has shown since USO 2010. The number of matches he has won after being match point down or within a point or two of losing are too many to count.

    Nadal has not gotten himself into such situations often.

    Federer has some 9 losses including 4 at majors losing matches after holding match points.

    So , on this count , it is hands down Djokovic.
     
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  40. xan

    xan Professional

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    you are one to talk.
     
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  41. ark_28

    ark_28 Hall of Fame

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    There is a glaring omission from the OP any time you come through so many breakers and win the longest match in the history of the sport you have to be considered the toughest player out there....

    Here is the toughest of them all...


    [​IMG]
     
    #41
  42. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Clarky21,

    I have you on "ignore", so I didn't get to see your post, until it was quoted.

    However, I feel that I have the right to correct you.

    I am first and foremost a fan of tennis, the way I play it and understand it. There is nothing, that you or anyone can do about that.

    I don't like Humbalito's style and I don't like a lot of what he brings in the sport (I have explicitly stated why here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=7181851&postcount=96).

    However, I give credit where credit is due.

    Unfortunately, (probably for his extreme fans) he will always be a subject of criticism and comments, because he is a top player, and, as such, I get to see him and his impact on the sport a lot. I choose the form, but it is by no means "hating". Mostly it is a reflection of the things, that he or his extreme fanbase does.

    I will be the first to praise him, if he changes his ways.

    Maybe I am vocal, because I see, that he has the potential to change. Come to think of it, I hope, that he will, which shows that I believe in him (once he gets rid of Tio and his evil influence).

    :razz:

    Feel free to not respond to this, as I cannot see your poasts and have no intention to involve myself in long and tedious exchanges of words with you.

    :cool:

    EDIT:The next two posters (as well as Crisstti and the majority of the Vamos Brigade) are a fine company for Clarky21 there, so .......

    P.S. Sorry for the Off-topic
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
    #42
  43. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Stats that show mental toughness:

    Tie-breakers:
    Federer: 65.9%
    Djokovic: 63.0
    Nadal: 62.2
    Murray: 61.1

    Deciding set:
    Djokovic: 72.1
    Nadal: 68.1
    Murray: 67.2
    Federer: 64.6

    Although Fed is ahead in TBs (his serve is superior), he is ridiculously bad in deciding sets. For that reason, I would never give Fed the edge in the mental toughness department.
     
    #43
  44. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    You do know that Fed has played close to 1100 ATP matches as opposed to 600 for Djokovic , correct ?
     
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  45. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Who cares? He's even way below Murray for that stat. Not a good showing at all regardless of # of matches played. (Connors has played more matches than Fed and he's at 69.7)
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
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  46. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    Who would you want to play a match if your life was at stake?

    For me there is only one answer...
     
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  47. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Djesus. Nobody is tougher mentally than him right now. He is also unbeatable as well.
     
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  48. Talker

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    How about stats for the least losses in a year or highest percentage winning in a year.
    That takes in account all the surfaces and the ability to stay tough all the way through the schedule.
     
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  49. World Beater

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    Deciding sets also test physical toughness...federer is not the one with the most endurance.

    TBs on the other hand are more mental than anything.

    Having a great serve doesnt ensure a healthy tb record anymore than a good fh or bh - just look at karlovic...and nadal for comparison.
     
    #49
  50. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Federer's 5 set record is nothing like Rafa or Novak's. I'm pretty sure Murray has a better 5 set record as well.
     
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