Whos the toughest?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Tropikal_Knights, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. Colin

    Colin Professional

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    The challenge with this stat is that Fed going five sets at all means he's not playing that well. At his peak, he'd just wipe people out in straight sets, four sets if they were playing really well. That he had to go five showed he already wasn't at his best (with some exceptions such as the Rome final against Nadal).

    Also, serve is good in tiebreaks, but it's not everything. That's why Fed, Novak and Rafa can beat the big servers in tiebreaks.
     
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  2. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    At the moment, Novak way ahead of anyone.
     
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  3. Talker

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    yeah, he's been great since 2011 for the most part and the best since.

    What about the guy who just says in pressure moments "I'll just do my best".
    It's more of a philosophy than mental toughness.
     
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  4. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    That has to do with level of play and consistency. It's not the same as mental toughness. Fed is admirable for many things but imo mental toughness is not one of them. He likes rolling over opponents but when said opponent shows some resistance (requiring a deciding set to be played), Fed's stats are noticeably lower than other tennis greats (even Agassi whose reputation was to be a bit of a headcase). It doesn't take away from his other qualities but he's mentally vulnerable when he has to get into a fight. At least most of the time or much more often than other top players. Djokovic is the perfect example of the opposite: a guy who relishes snatching victory from the jaw of defeat.
     
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  5. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Fed's 5th set record is dismal although to be fair, this probably has to do with both lack of mental grittiness AND lack of stamina.

    Djoko and Nadal both have 75% success in a 5th set careerwise, Murray 70%, Federer: 55.3%. That is quite low and puts him in the 97th position in open era!
     
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  6. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    That is true for best of 5 but not particularly for best of 3.
     
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  7. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    i think his 3 set deciding set record will compare favorable to his 5 set record.

    Also you need to calibrate the records against the competition.

    Federer in his prime basically played only the best players in 5 sets...whereas rafa and novak are more prone to going 5 against seppi, wawrinka, petzchner etc.

    easier to win a decider against petzchner than against nadal/ fed / novak
     
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  8. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    That's why federer is fresh as a daisy both physically and mentally, while the rest of the ATP are gassed out during the second half of the season.
     
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  9. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    There again, you're being confused. Favorite surfaces and favorite part of the season (or consistency and ability to save energy) have nothing to do with mental toughness (or physical endurance in a long match).
    + apart from Basel (his home tournament ) and WTF, Fed doesn't usually shine in the fall after USO. He's won 1st fall master only once in his 15 years career and Paris only once (never even made another final). That doesn't qualify as "kicking ass" until the very end. (Not even mentioning how he's occasionally skipped one of the 2 fall masters). Fed is as tired as the others. WTF is one of his favorite events, that's all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
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  10. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    You hit the nail on the head there my friend.
     
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  11. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    Djokovic is very good, especially in the last two years in crunch time.
    The reason is hard to define, but it seems to be his philosophy that he'll just go for it and not worry about anything else.
     
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  12. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Answer to beast of mallorca: Er no, my stats are all career-wise and they show how much tougher than Fed Djoko is mentally. If anything, if I isolated Djoko's recent stats, they would be even higher and they're already much higher than Fed's when including his pre-peak years.
     
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  13. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, I have to say I could not do that myself so I find it fascinating to witness.
     
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  14. Talker

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    I know Fed's overall win stats are very good.
    If he loses a higher percentage in 5 setters his average must be very high in less than 5 setters.

    Fed would have to be the toughest in matches that didn't go 5 sets.
     
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  15. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    his TB record has to do with his overall play , not just serving ... same reason why nadal/djoker have way superior TB records to say someone like karlovic and are on the same level as sampras , roddick

    fed's 5th set record taken at face value may look "bad", but he's gone to 5 only against very strong performances or when playing bad .... unlike nadal/djoker/murray who've had a better share of relatively easier 5-setters ......

    in a deciding set on level terms, I'd take djoker/nadal over fed, but murray, I don't quite think so ... even the 5-setter he won vs fed this year at the AO, fed was gassed out by the 5th set (had played 5-setter vs tsonga in the round before )

    if murray would've closed it out in the 4th, fed's 5 set record wouldn't have gotten worse, which is ironical as he actually did very well to stretch it to a 5th ....

    in a TB, I'd take fed over the others ....
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
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  16. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Hahahaha LOL. THe reason he wasn't going 5 sets in his peak was because of facing guys like Roddick, Hewitt, Davydenko, Haas etc.

    A teenager was his toughest opponent ffs. An old Andre Agassi was pushing him further than those guys.

    And he played very well in both 5 set Wimbledon finals, he played very well in AO09 final, vs Safin AO05 SF.

    Face it, he isn't mentally tough enough to handle going the distance when his opponent is tough. When he faces his pidgeon like Roddick or some journeyman, then yes he can overcome the 5th set hurdle (vs Tipsy, vs Andreev, vs Falla etc)
     
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  17. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, only there have been plenty of occasions , even when the opponent has shown resistance/very good play, federer closes it out in straights or in 4 ..

    see djokovic USO 2007 ( bar the first set choke ), djokovic USO 2008, djokovic USO 2009, roddick wimbledon 2004, roddick USO 2007, nalbandian AO 2004, davydenko AO 2006 ,davydenko AO 2010, hewitt wimbledon 2005, ancic wimbledon 2006 etc etc ....
     
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  18. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Hmmm, there seems to be a player missing from your little list there. I wonder who he could be???
     
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  19. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    you could throw in wimbledon 2006 final as well ... rafa played well after the first set ...

    add djokovic RG 2011, murray/djokovic wimbledon 2012 as well ...

    there are a few more, but I think my point is clear ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2013
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  20. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    But you said that WIM06 wasn't that tough for Fed. Changing stations to suit your argument again I see...

    It is the only time Federer has EVER defeated Nadal in 4 sets. He's also never won in straights against Rafa in a bo5 match. He's also only ever won 3 sets in a row against Rafa in the same match once, Miami 05...
     
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  21. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yes, because fed played well ... never said rafa didn't play well after the 1st set ..

    another example, djoker played very well in USO 2009 SF, but it wasn't that tough for fed

    yeah, so ?

    get a few more matches for fed at his peak @ the USO & the AO or in HC master slam finals (when they used to be BO5 )...you'd see him defeating nadal more often in less than 5 sets ....
     
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  22. adil1972

    adil1972 Professional

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    no doubt it, its federer 10 consecutive slam finals, 23 consecutive slam semifinals, 18 finals out of 19 consecutive slams
     
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  23. Talker

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    I did mention the 18/19 slam finals. How he did that was remarkable testament to mental toughness over a long period.

    Don't forget a declining Fed regaining #1 with prime Nadal AND prime Djokovic.
    This is one of the most remarkable displays of Fed's mental strength.
    How he could topple those two will be talked about for eva'.
     
    #73
  24. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    But didn't you say he played a **** game where Nadal broke him in the second set? IMO he was lucky not to go down 2 sets to 1. If Nadal's nerves and grass experience was better he most likely would've.

    Hahahahaha lol whatever you say sunshine. Just remember peak Fed struggled against teen Rafa whenever they met on HC (oh but yeah, I forgot you have an excuse for EVERY single one of those losses including choking :oops:). Indoors doesn't really count since AO and USO aren't indoors.
     
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  25. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, as evidenced by nadal's stellar play at 5-2 up in the 4th set tie-break in wimbledon 2008 , where he hit a DF and hit a lame BH into the net ... gotcha !

    fact is the match had 2 easy sets and 2 tough ones , which they split. ..

    and miami/AO aren't close to the USO either ..........but of course fed's h2h with rafa on outdoor HC isn't due to circumstances, but rafa's vs davy is, right ?

    LOL ! even though federer's record on HC is superior to rafa's by a larger margin than rafa's to davydenko's ......
     
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  26. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Lol "gotcha" seriously? Don't jack off dude!

    Truth is, at 5-2 up of course he's going to get nervous when it comes to winning his first ever Wimbledon title, especially considering he was about to dethrone the Wimbledon king. The fact that he could keep it together and play a clutch fifth set proves that his nerves were in a far better state than 2006 when he came out and got bagelled in the first set.

    Thanks captain obvious.

    So what do you want to admit then, that Rafa's h2h with Davy is circumstantial as well as Rafa and Fed's, or do you want to admit that neither case is circumstantial? You can't have one and not the other.

    Thing is, Rafa's losses to Davy aren't due to the ultimate excuse... choking.

    And you keep cacking on about peak Fed, you judge a player by his whole career, not just his peak. Rafa was a teenager and gave Fed his biggest challenge. Peak Fed struggled with teen Rafa on HC. Common sense tells you that peak Rafa would give peak Fed a LOT of trouble on outdoor HC, you just won't admit it because it's hurts you so bad lol.
     
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  27. rossi46

    rossi46 Professional

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    Current era Nadal by a mile, he has the so called GOAT beaten before they even step on the court.

    Sampras in his era and Lendl prior to that.
     
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  28. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    the ignore function is a blessing... removes so much noise...
     
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  29. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    Based on the present, where they're at right now, the only thing I'd say for sure is that Djokovic should be #1. I don't think there's a huge difference in the 4 at this point, with Murray now having a slam under his belt.
     
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  30. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    Nadal is the mentally toughest.
     
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  31. Tropikal_Knights

    Tropikal_Knights Banned

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    Mentally do not compare nadal vs fed mental toughness based on the record between them...........after all its a favorable match up for the Matador.

    Fed coming back to regain number 1 proves he has the nanaas.....

    But overall Lance is the toughest.
     
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  32. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    jeez and the fact that he came out and hit 20 W and 3 UEs in the 3rd set of the Wimbledon 2006 final doesn't prove he was able to overcome the disappointment of the 2nd set ?

    fact, is, it was just one loose game, it happens to players ... a nervous start in the 2006 final is one thing, but he had settled into the match by the 2nd set ...


    actually circumstances played a part in both ... but fed-rafa matches have been a LOT more closer .....so a change of circumstances would affect fedal h2h on outdoor HC more than nadal-davy on HC

    and again nadal-davy matches have been on slow HC, fast HC, indoors .... spread everywhere ... except for dubai 2006 - a medium fast court, all of fedal matches on outdoor HC have been on slow HC ...

    game-wise, rafa is in quite a bit more trouble vs davy than fed vs rafa on outdoor HC .

    and again, like I said, the difference in achievements b/w fed-nadal on HC is much more than that of nadal-davy on HC ...

    oh, jeez, when did I say rafa would be "easy" for fed @ his peak ? I only said fed would have the edge over him on slow HC and quite a bit more on fast HC ....

    since when did saying fed would beat rafa in 4 sets on HC peak to peak become equivalent to saying rafa would be easy for fed ?

    @ the bold part, oh , really ? is that why even a year & half after he won his first slam, rafa was still supposedly a 'baby' on HC - he got blown off court by gonzalez ... and yet you say 'prime' rafa would've 'definitely' handled him ? LOL !

    if he was competitive in that match, you could make a decent case .....but he just got blown off ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
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  33. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    He obviously played his top level on grass at the time in the third because he didn't want to lose in straights, he just couldn't keep up that level. It was a glimpse of what was to come for Federer in the upcoming Wimbledons...

    hahahah LOL of course Fed and Rafa matches were closer, Fed was in his peak and Rafa was a teenager.

    Suck it up, Rafa was just too good for your man, even though he was playing in his peak and Rafa was only a teen lol.

    The Davydenko matches, a lot of them were in succession when Rafa was just coming back from his knee injury. Davydenko wasn't the only player beating Nadal, IIRC Rafa lost to every top 10 player at the time except Tsonga.

    Federer lost a handful of matches in 2006, yet your excuse for him was that he choked. LOL how embarrassing, Rafa was coming back from a foot injury and Fed was coming off an AO victory, he was clearly in better form and would've been full of confidence. He lost because Rafa was too good for him as usual.

    Who cares what you say? Reality is you're wrong and history proves it. LOL teenage Rafa was beating peak Fed on outdoor HC. The only outdoor HC match Fed won was Miami 2005.... and he was lucky to win that being down 2 sets and a break...

    Peak Rafa would have no problem with peak Fed on slow HC. Fast HC would be a different story, but considering grass is the fastest surface and Rafa has been quite competitive with Fed in those conditions, I'd say that on fast HC, both in their peaks, they would split their wins.

    Let's not forget Rafa won the US Open in 2010 and made the final the very next year, he's no slouch up there.
     
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  34. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    again, that doesn't change what I said, does it ? he wasn't mentally fragile in wim 06 after the 1st set nervous start ....

    question is not whether or not he wanted to lose in straights .. question is was he able to bounce back after the 2nd set loss ? answer is yes .....

    again, you just got owned . :lol:

    oh , really ? AO 2012 ,with rafa at his peak & fed not at his , was competitive. fed blew rafa off court at IW 2012 ...

    there were 3 of them ... shanghai 2009, YEC 2009, doha 2010 .. he lost in doha though he was playing darn well .. he'd have lost in YEC 2009 anyways ... davy was playing too good there ... that leaves only shanghai 2009

    and lets not forget he got blown off court in miami 2008 as well ...

    lol, even fed had his injury problems , towards the end of 2005, which is why he skipped paris & madrid, just about managed to recover for the YEC, problem resurfaced in the final in YEC 2005 ... part of the reason why he was up & down in AO 2006

    eh, no , out of his prime fed can blast rafa off court at IW, and without a serve can outplay him for 4 sets overall at AO 2009, have a much better record at AO than rafa, he'd have the edge over rafa on slow HC ...

    no problem on slow HC ???????

    ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ....


    lol, that's a downright pathetic trolling attempt , rafa on grass > rafa @ the USO by some distance and it isn't close ...at max, he wins 3 matches out of 10 on fast HC ...

    face it, fed is clearly better than rafa on slow HC, fast HC, grass, indoors ...

    on slow HC & grass, gap is narrowed down due to matchup, but fed being the clearly superior player has the edge in both ....
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
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  35. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    anyways , that's enough ownage :twisted:

    also we're going a bit off-track ....

    coming back to the topic @ hand :

    overall in the course of career : rafa

    @ peak : djoker by a tiny margin over rafa

    bouncing back from tough losses/tie-breaks : federer
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2013
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  36. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    So, you decide to dismiss a whole set like as if it doesn't matter. LOL. The only reason Fed won in 4 sets is because of that nervous start lmao "owned"? if you say so.

    And Nadal blew Fed off the court at Miami 2011. What's your point? In bo5 situations Rafa always has the edge over Federer, even Miami 05 Rafa was all over Fed like white on rice until he mentally collapsed and allowed Fed back in.

    Fact is, Federer has only ever beat Rafa twice on outdoor HC and was very lucky to get one of those wins. His IW match was an anomoly where Rafa was hesitant due to his knee and not anywhere near playing his best. One offs happen in tennis, you saying this crap to me is like saying Benneteau blasted Fed in Rotterdam last week at 31 yrs of age so in his peak he would've beat peak Fed. Or like saying Zeballos beat Rafa on clay last week, so that means he can do it again.

    He played well in Doha but he choked after not having won a title in 10 months. And the other 2 were after his knee injury, accept that. He was losing to every top 10 player at the time, it's not like Davydenko's game was too good for him EVERYONE in the top 10's game was too good for him at the time. oh apart from Tsonga.

    And Miami was well deserved to Davydenko, but doesn't prove much.

    Fed's injury problems were NOTHING like Nadal's. He was on the brink of calling it quits due to doctor's orders. If it wasn't for the special insoles he would not have been able to play on. It's the reason his knees are under additional stress each time he plays.

    LOL Fed can blast Rafa at IW based on one match? How blind and naive you are. Sorry, but we'll be basing it on the collective of their matches on outdoor HC, not one anomoly where Rafa was playing ****.

    Peak Fed struggled on outdoor HC vs teen Rafa. FACT.
    Peak Rafa would have no problems with peak Fed on outdoor HC. Common sense based on FACT.

    You saying Fed would beat Rafa on outdoor HC is based on a blind, biased and stupid opinion. Pretty much because peak Fed was beating dropkicks like Hewitt, Roddick, old Agassi etc.

    Fed is clearly better? Really? You whinge about the HC encounters between Fed and Rafa being slow HC, so what's the problem? Surely a clearly better player in his peak would be able to handle a teenager on these slow HCs. And peak Rafa definitely was far more competitive against peak Novak on slow HC. And clearly better on grass? Well yeah with the resume, but against Rafa he isn't clearly better. LOL you keep talking crap it's too funny.

    Here's your clearly superior player's stats against Rafa across surfaces:

    Clay: 2/12
    Grass: 2/3
    Outdoor HC: 2/7
    Indoor HC: 4/4

    So yes, in your world with the butterflies, fairies and little ballerinas, he is clearly superior, but in reality he is only clearly superior on indoor conditions. He gets owned on clay and outdoor HC and grass is quite even.
     
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  37. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Lol nothing like self proclaimed ownage huh?

    You're such a blind ******* and talk so much crap it really cracks me up :lol:

    Ahh good, now you can finally admit that RG08 had nothing to do with WIM08. Rafa just outplayed him and was too good. Cool.
     
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  38. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    For now, if I had to pick, it's Djokovic. I just can't count this guy out until the match is over.

    Overall, its been Nadal.

    But in tie breakers, Federer still trumps both.
     
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  39. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    Yep can't dispute this. Recently Novak has been a beast when facing adversity in tight matches and this is not against journeymen either. Novak has shown mental strength to fight back against Federer twice at the US Open even after being match point down, He fought back against Tsonga at RG last year, against Rafa at AO12, against Wawrinka AO13 amongst a few others.

    Overall Nadal has shown great mental strength throughout his entire career. This isn't the case with Novak.

    TB has to go to Fed, his clutch serve is better than any other in the big 4 and it gets him out of a lot of trouble in most TBs.
     
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  40. Sartorius

    Sartorius Professional

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    Dismal? :lol: You're too kind. In the end he has won more matches than he lost.

    Besides, when one speaks about "mental toughness", which is such a vague concept on its' own (I'd say at least, hence these type of discussions usually seem pointless to me), you need to have some context. It's quite arguable that tiebreak and 5 setter statistics are immediately indicators of mental toughness, and if we are to argue on the basis that it is, the stats can be pulled anywhere depending on how you look at it. Federer for instance, didn't play many 5 setters during his heyday because he didn't have to. Can't be bothered to search but I'm pretty sure the number of 5 setters he has played saw a dramatic increase after 2008, and overall he plays these kind of matches usually against top players; in comparison Nadal, Djokovic and particularly Murray are a little more suspect to play 5 setters against lower ranked players in earlier rounds of a GS. Not to mention these guys are much younger than Federer, we haven't seen what they'll come up with once they hit Federer's age (even then this whole argument would probably be pointless but still).

    If Federer lost the majority of those 5 set matches maybe you could say he's "mentally weak", but he hasn't. You can actually argue this is an indication that it's hard to put him away, and he usually makes his opponent work for the win (this was particularly the case against Murray at this year's AO).
     
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  41. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    this is downright hilarious ... so if rafa wasn't nervous, he would've won the first set ? with federer serving at 94% and playing very well ........

    if he wasn't nervous, he'd have won a few games, but he'd have lost the set ...

    this is right up with your BS that prime rafa would not be in trouble vs gonzo of AO 2007, even though in reality he got absolutely blasted off court and couldn't even keep it somewhat respectable ...


    his BO5 adv is limited to clay & post-peak federer ....


    .rafa was perfectly fit and fine , he even went on to play doubles after that & the singles & doubles in miami after that ......... only a crazy fellow would do that if injured ...

    zeballos one was after a layoff for 7 months ... if you can't get the difference, you are more clueless than ever

    rafa was lucky to have a sick federer in miami 2004, him choking in dubai 2006 , playing cr*p in miami 2011 & being old & not striking his best form in AO 2012 semi (that happens on a few occasions even post-prime )...see how that works ?

    funny how you make a comparison of one-off losses to players like benneateau/zeballos to nadal losing to the greatest HC player ever on HC... that's heights of delusion ...


    actually davydenko did beat the top players to win the YEC ... so yeah, his form was good enough to beat even nadal playing well ....

    princess rafa not winning titles even after 5-6 months of injury is not an excuse ... its his problem if he had to wait till the CC season to gain back confidence ....

    when did I say their problems were equal ? I just mentioned that federer had his share of problems at that time as well ...


    bwahaha ... I'm not basing it on only the IW match ...( and I'll repeat because it hasn't sunk in, rafa wasn't injured there )

    fed's clearly superior player on slow HC .... their matchup narrows down it in their matches... even without his serve, fed actually won quite a few more points @ rafa's best in AO 2009 ...


    I was talking about overall achievements on those surfaces, clueless ........learn to read ... I even mentioned matchup narrowing down the gap on slow HC/grass ...

    peak rafa was more competitive than post-prime federer vs djoker on slow HC ... wow ! amazing , mind-blowing !

    oh , but wait, federer actually beat djoker in 2011 , the only one to do so in a major & got close in another ... what rafa did was to get beaten left right in both majors he faced novak in ...

    here's a tip : do not go down the djoker road ... that's a massive tripping point for *******s off clay
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
    #91
  42. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    lol, ha ha ha ... the ******* fanboy cr*p you pull almost every single time on this forum is well known ... is it just that you just like getting owned time and again ? a masochist ? :)



    again, cluelessness at its finest ... just because federer is brilliant at bouncing back from bad losses doesn't mean it isn't going to have any effect at all ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2013
    #92
  43. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    I was just thinking the same thing :).
     
    #93
  44. Tropikal_Knights

    Tropikal_Knights Banned

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    I tried to post a poll but had already sent the thread in and could not add the poll.

    Would have been interesting to collate the answers.
     
    #94
  45. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    None of the above.

    David Ferrer.
     
    #95
  46. spperry

    spperry Rookie

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    Nadal for me.

    Always gives 100% and has won a lot of matches when not at his best. I give him the edge for mental toughness as he has displayed it most throughout his career.

    Djokovic is much better now than earlier in his career when he would fall apart sometimes when losing.
     
    #96
  47. spinovic

    spinovic Hall of Fame

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    It depends...can we separate it into two David Ferrers? The one who plays the Big 4 is a mental midget. The one who plays the rest of the world is Rafa's mini-me.
     
    #97
  48. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    David has a terrible track record against the Big 4, no doubt, but that is because his physical limitations are not fully compensated for due to their better than average Mental Games.

    IOW everyone else (besides the Big 4) is physical better and mentally much, much weaker, thus he wins. The Big 4 are much, much better physically and slightly weaker mentally, thus they they win.
     
    #98
  49. President

    President Legend

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    Ferrer's physical limitations are overrated, he is just a flat out better player than most of the guys ranked below him although I agree some of them (Berdych, Tsonga) are better but just mentally weak.
     
    #99
  50. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Yeah, being ranked #97 in open era for a player of Fed's caliber, I call that dismal.
     

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