Why do midsized racquets serve so well?

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by djones, Mar 6, 2006.

  1. djones

    djones Hall of Fame

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    Could someone explain?
    I really feel more comfortable serving with my 'heavy' midsized Prestige Classic.
    This has to do with the 'fact' that I seem to get more swingspeed.
    But it's not logical if you consider that a lighter bigger headsized racquet 'should' be easier to swing!?
     
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  2. legolas

    legolas Banned

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    me too, i noticed that my serves are much more better now that i am using the ncode 90 tour than before when i was using the npro surge
     
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  3. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I agree as I've found the same thing. I just tend to serve better with smaller headsized racquets like the PS 6.0 85, Prestige Classic, i.Prestige Mid, LM Prestige Mid, etc. I think the reason has to do with them being more aerodynamic, the smaller headsize also seems to make eaiser to manipulate the angle of the head and easier to snap your wrist on the serve. It also seems more like you're swinging an axe overhead in which more of your power is concentrated into a smaller area resulting in more power. Smaller headed racquets also tend to be heavier too which can add more momentum and power to serves.

    Lastly, since the head is smaller, I find that I feel more free to swing away on my serves with less fear that the racquet will get in my way or possibly even hit myself with it. This also results in more pace from the bigger swing.
     
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  4. armand

    armand Banned

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    curiosity

    BP, I use and love midsized frames as well. But where on Earth do you get the inexhaustible reserve of energy to keep praising them repeatedly in countless threads accross the boards?
    Man, it took me 10 minutes to read this post as it tired me out so much that I was drifting in+out of a coma.
    Well, it's a draining job and I'm glad I don't have to do it. Thanks BP
     
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  5. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    You're welcome, adely!! :D

    I don't feel that I'm touting midsize frames as much as just offering my honest opinion based upon my own personal experiences with frames of all sizes. If I actually served better with oversize frames, I would say so. But since I don't, I can't claim that I do, as I really do serve better with most midsize frames. Of course, the reasons I listed above are just my own personal opinions as to the reasons why and it's how I really feel when I serve with a midsize versus a midplus or an oversize racquet.
     
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  6. AngeloDS

    AngeloDS Hall of Fame

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    I don't notice too much of a difference (between tweener and midsized). But everything pretty much feels the same when you string down to 51-53 lbs =).

    But it's mostly due to the fact there's some weight. And most people are used (or more comfortable) to throwing something heavy such as --> Football, Baseball etc. compared to nerf balls and such.
     
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  7. armand

    armand Banned

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    Oh I agree with you about the racquets. But I was actually asking about your bottomless reserves that allows you to keep posting about the same stuff. What drives you, BP?
     
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  8. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Well, in this case, just trying to help the OP by answering the question that he asked. I know it may get repetitive. But since people keep on asking........;) LOL.

    BTW, you may want to ask Marius the same question. I think that guy is even more amazing!! :D
     
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  9. AndyP

    AndyP New User

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    F=MA it's physics
     
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  10. Ripper

    Ripper Hall of Fame

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    "Why do midsized racquets serve so well?"

    I know the answer! It has nothing to do with all the bull crap mentioned here before. It's simple really. The smaller the head the higher the sweet spot is located in relation to a larger headed raquet of the same length. Let's use both RDX500 raquets as an example. Take an RDX500 Midsize and an RDX500 MP and put them right beside each other. Both are 27 inches long. However, the hoop on the MP extends more downwards. Meaning the sweetspot on the Midsize is located higher. You could get the MP's sweet spot to be at the same height if you extended it's length. So, in other words, for serving, Midsize raquets act pretty much like an extended length MP raquet.
     
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  11. lucky leprechaun

    lucky leprechaun Semi-Pro

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    I think 2 reasons: smaller head racquets are usually heavier therefore smack the crap out of the ball with more force at impact to resist instability, and second, smaller head has less surface area to aerodyncamilly to slow it down.

    But I think the main advantage of smaller headed racquets are not any of those things above for the serve, and its the same reason why it will always be superior for skillful volleys. You can turn the head on a dime when carving your volleys or turning the head just so for a perfect out wide ace serve. So, midsized racquets are superior in the serving department in every area except power, which isn't a problem if your're a powerful dude. I think they're also superior in volleys in every department, except put-away volleys which obviously a light stiff big racquet can much more powerfully do.
     
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  12. Ripper

    Ripper Hall of Fame

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    Let me add that I'd take the extended MP over the standard Mid, any time. I think the fact that Federer uses a small headed raquet has a lot to do with some people still buying them. If Federer changes to a larger headed raquet at some point in his career, I'm sure a lot less people will continue using them. Btw, this is just my opinion; no need to hate me for that.
     
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  13. ta11geese3

    ta11geese3 Semi-Pro

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    Don't Prostaffs though have a lower sweet spot..?
     
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  14. Kaptain Karl

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    They don't. In fact "the racquets" don't perform any stroke ... well or badly.

    Some people play more shots better with "x" stick. Other people play more shots better with "y" stick. But it's the player; not the racquet.

    Boy! You have that right.

    And certain "Mid Evangelists" would become apoplectic if Federer ever switched. (Or not. They seem able to ignore Agassi's, Roddick's and Nadal's sticks fairly easily....)

    - KK
     
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  15. vkartikv

    vkartikv Hall of Fame

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    Yes, that is true, that's what prostaff really means, if you look at 'technologies' on the tw homepage. I think its more of how easily you can cut through the air with midsize frames than sweetspot.
     
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  16. loubapache

    loubapache Professional

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    KK, then they'll say FED is a chicken.
     
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  17. Ripper

    Ripper Hall of Fame

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    "...The smaller the head the higher the sweet spot is located in relation to a larger headed raquet of the same length..."

    ...and balance...
     
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  18. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I disagree. Sampras has not played a match for almost 4 years and no other visible pro has used a PS 6.0 85 for even longer than that, yet the PS 6.0 85 is still selling like hotcakes here at TW and anywhere else that stills sells them. TW sold out their 3 month supply in only a week!! :eek: So obviously people are not buying them because some pro uses them, since none do, but are buying them because they play well with them and like playing with them. :D

    IMO, anyone that buys a racquet soley because some pro uses it is not very wise anyway.
     
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  19. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But what does what the pros choose (and are paid) to use have any relation or corrolation to what we choose to use? I think unless you're playing against ATP pros everyday to make a living, there's no reason whatsoever to need to use a racquet similar to what the pros use. News Flash: You're competiton just ain't that good!
     
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  20. chess9

    chess9 Hall of Fame

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    Wave $1,000,000 in front of my nose and I'll play with the Queen's Knickers. Most pros are the same. The companies try hard to please them, but if Head wants someone to play a 135 sq. in. racquet they won't have any trouble finding plenty of "buyers" in the pro ranks. If you understand anything about marketing you'll understand how the tail wags the dog...and why. I doubt I need to tell many people here that tennis racquet marketing is full of baloney with very little mustard.

    -Robert
    ________
    MCDONALDS GIFT CARDS
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
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  21. JacktheDu

    JacktheDu Guest

    I think the fact that all these players use two handed backhand contribute to their choice of racquet size. The size of the racquet compensate for the shorter reach of two handed backhand. It seems like most players who use one handed backhand, such as federer and sampras, would prefer a smaller raquet size. At least that's how I feel.
     
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  22. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Agreed. Same here. :D
     
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  23. loubapache

    loubapache Professional

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    If you take a look at all the top 20 players who have a one handed BH, you will be surprised to see most use headsize 95 or larger. Lubcic, Gaudio, Robredo, Gasquet, Blake, etc.
     
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  24. ask1ed

    ask1ed Semi-Pro

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    Ask a carpenter why he uses a long handled, heavy head hammer for framing, and a small handled ball peen hammer for finish work. IF you don't care about damaging the wood, and want to slam a 16 penny home with one strike, you use the framing hammer. If you're working on a redwood gate, and installing, trim, use the ball peen hammer.

    Sampras/Fed use the same stick essentially, where do you think Fed learned from the most? So did Becker, Edberg, Pearce, Courier, and so on. N code six one tour 90 is just the current improved version of the ps 85 red/yellow striper. Henin also uses the n code, Kiefer, and so on. Control is more important to the pros than power, as they can all munch the ball now with any stick, even the women.
     
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  25. Ripper

    Ripper Hall of Fame

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    PS 6.0 85s sell, because Sampras used them. In general, small headed raquets sell, because Sampras used them and because Federer uses them. If, after breaking all records, Federer retires still using a small headed raquet, the small headed raquets will continue to sell well (whatever that is). If Federer ever changes to a larger headed raquet and plays well with it, sales of all small headed raquets will go down. I don't think this should even be questioned. You guys know how it is.
     
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  26. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Then why don't the Jack Kramer Autogrpahs sell well anymore since Kramer used them or the T-2000's since Connors used them? :rolleyes:

    Not everyone gives a rat's ass what racquet the pros use. Many recreational players couldn't even tell you the exact model that most of the pros use. Most don't really care since they're smart enough to buy the racquet that works best for their games and that they enjoy playing with the most. I know many recreational players that never even watch pro tennis couldn't even name two players in the Top 50.

    You must be one very disillusioned young man if you actually DO buy racquets just because some pro uses them. I feel sorry for you. :(
     
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  27. JacktheDu

    JacktheDu Guest

    Most of of these players use 95, which is still smaller than roddick's, aggassi's and nadal's 100, 98, and 100 headsize racquet. And I'm not saying that all one handed players would appreciate a mid size raquet, especially when they are playing in ATP tour which is without a doubt very physically and mentally demanding. A mid size racquet would probably do more bad than good for them since it requires a higher level of concentration, and this would definately tire out the players faster on court and the tireness would build up faster over days of the tournaments. So I think unless the player is confident enough about their physical and mental fitenss, it would be better for them to stay off a mid size racquet.
     
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  28. Honestlybad

    Honestlybad Rookie

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    This thread turned into another mids vs. the world debate.

    I think that the "magic" of small headed frames and the reason that they serve better lies in the fact that the mass that drives the ball is more concentrated. The fact that the strings are shorter, which results in a quicker, more crisp response of the stringbead upon impact may also have something to do with it.

    The disadvantage lies in the small sweet spot. If you hit it, the ball really goes, and if you're good enough to hit it consistently under pressure you should go ahead and play with a mid. The mid will also force you to improve your technique but I don't want to get into that here.

    There was a thread here a couple of months ago where someone did the stats on the headsizes of the winners of tournaments on various surfaces. The statistical winner of a grass tournament used approximately a 91inch frame, hard - 93inch, clay - 98. Since clay can become uneven and the bounces may vary it is difficult even for the pros to hit the sweetspot consistently. It is wiser to play with something a little bigger on clay. Anyone remember somebody winning the French with a midsize frame?

    Anyhow, if you play predominantely on clay I recomend using a midplus (95 - 100) but if you are good enough and usually play on faster, more even surfaces, useing a mid is not a bad idea at all.
     
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  29. Midlife crisis

    Midlife crisis Hall of Fame

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    But relative to our levels of skill and athleticism, the competition is just as tough for us as it is for them!
     
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  30. lucky leprechaun

    lucky leprechaun Semi-Pro

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    I'm probably the only one that thinks this and probably get b*tch slapped :D but what the heck is wrong in wanting to try out a pro stick? I think I might have learned something about the game had I gotten the chance to swing pistol pete's specs on the green lawns of wimbledon, or nadal's specs on the red dirt of roland garros.
     
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  31. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But does that mean we should be using the same racquets that the pros use? Do you regularly play against guys that consistently hit 140mph serves and 100mph groundstrokes, and can run down your shots like Blake and Hewitt can?

    Should we all be driving Formula One race cars because the "competiton" on the highways is just as tough for us as it is for professional race car drivers on the race track?
     
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  32. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, Courier, Lendl, and Borg to name a few. And they each won multiple times.

    And how big were Wilander's, Noah's, Gomez's, Bruguera's, and Kafelnikov's racquets? :confused:
     
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  33. Honestlybad

    Honestlybad Rookie

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    Kafelnikov - 98
    Bruguera - 95
    Courier - 95? not sure.
    Lendl, Borg, I don't remember. It was a different game back then.
    Anyone won it with a mid in the past 10 years?
    My point was that larger frames make more sense on clay.
     
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  34. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    As I mentioned above, Courier used a midsize - the PS 6.0 85. In fact, he beat Agassi and his oversize racquet in the finals.

    BTW, when Courier and Lendl won there were already many oversized racquets on the market.
     
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  35. Honestlybad

    Honestlybad Rookie

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    So what is your point?

    I repeat my question. Anyone won the French in the last 10 years with a mid?

    Do you play on clay?
     
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  36. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    True that..it's about the operator. You cant build a REAL case for midsized frames serving any better than you can for oversized frames serving better. Flipper can serve pretty much the same with anything as he proved in an experiment a while back. This thread is chock full of urban legends surrounding the 'mystique' of swinging a midsized frame. Fact is, most people serve worse with a midsized frame until they get up to the 5.0 level or so and then after that it may turn into a wash and strictly a matter of preference. Not to mention the injury opportunity.

    Oh, I suppose you may get the occassional day when everything is clicking, you are feeling great, the wind isnt blowing, you dont have to serve into the sun, and you are playing someone else with a midsize.

    I sure hope no one is buying a midsized frame to serve better based upon reading this thread
     
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  37. Ulam

    Ulam Rookie

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    I feel the ball better with the midsize and with a heavier frame makes impact more stable. There are disadvantages to oversize. It's too light. There will be stability issues at impact if not hit in the sweetspot on flat balls. Also you will have greater trampoline affect, you will need to string even tighter if you hit with spin. This will minimize the sweetspot which was one its advantage. The other advantage is not hitting the frame as much.
     
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  38. Ulam

    Ulam Rookie

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    Why do midsized racquets serve so well?

    You have mass behind your swing and stability is much better.
     
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  39. ask1ed

    ask1ed Semi-Pro

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    Wilander used the Rosignol f 200 carbon, with the inverted throat. Noah used the yamaha secret 04. Both 90 about. Secret weighs about 12.5 oz, strung, etc. Carbon is lighter, more flexible.
     
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  40. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    I thought Flipper only compared serving with his Prestige Classic with serving with a wood racquet? And I guess he proved that the wood racquet wasn't so bad because it's even smaller than his Prestige. I don't recall him comparing his Prestige with an oversize racquet. Please correct me if you know otherwise.
     
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  41. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    My point is that it's not about the racquet. It's about the player and how accustomed they are playing on clay. The players that win the French tend to be people that grew up playing on clay and are very good clay court players utilizing clay court strategies, and not due to the size of their racquets.

    Sampras, Rafter, Edberg, Becker and McEnroe never won the French because they are primarily serve and volleyers and attacking style players, and not due to the size of their racquets. Borg, Wilander, Lendl, Bruguera, Kuerten, Courier, Kafelnikov, Nadal, Ferrero, Costa, Moya, Gomez, Gaudio, etc., all won because they grew up on clay and are baseline players that know how to use clay court strategies, and not due to the size of their racquets, as proven by Courier, Lendl, and Wilander. Yes, that was more than 10 years ago, but has the red clay at Roland Garros changed over the past 10 years? Are there more bad bounces now than there were 10 years ago?

    Yes, I've played quite a bit on clay although not recently.
     
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  42. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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  43. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    ok..will correct you. there was also a game improvement bat in the mix. somethng light and large headed. he got the most mph out of the GI bat, but they were all close. if you dont understand the various reasons why wood really isnt close to anything modern to serve with during actual play, well then........awww nevermind
     
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  44. hoosierbr

    hoosierbr Hall of Fame

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    Just my opinion but a lot of the players dominating on clay these days are using Babolat rocket launchers that make it very easy to generate massive amounts of topspin.

    Generally speaking, though, most of the players that do well at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open don't do all that well at Roland Garros. I can't say for certain if their racquets are the problem on the dirt or there are too many clay court specialists out winning everything.

    With the exceptions of Federer and Henman I can't think of anyone using a sub-100 sq in. frame that made a run at Roland Garros recently. Maybe Kuerten in 2004?

    As for myself, I serve better with a midsize but I know a lot of people who serve better with an MP or OS. I think it's mostly technique. Philippoussis served just as big using a wooden frame a few years ago in either a practice or some exhibition, I can't remember which.

    I live in California and there isn't much clay to play on here. But I love the challenge of trying my game on the dirt. I'd like to find a place where I can play on some good clay courts before I enter a tournament.
     
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  45. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    NBMJ,
    So do you seriously think that Sampras would have won the French just by switching to a bigger racquet? Remember that this is a guy that got destroyed, 6-1, 6-1, 6-1 by Chang at the French the year that Chang won it.

    Isn't the rationale for using bigger racquets on clay is because of the bad bounces? But you didn't answer my question before - are there more bad bounces now on the red clay at Roland Garros than 10 years ago?

    As far as clay courters today hitting with topspin, isn't that what Borg and Vilas were doing at the French in the '70's?
     
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  46. Andres

    Andres G.O.A.T.

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    A small headsized racquet = faster swing speed and head speed.
     
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  47. PM_

    PM_ Professional

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    *Sirens and red lights* I think we have a winner here! It's all about head speed, and both extreme headlightness and better aerodynamics will do it.
     
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  48. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Agreed. :D
     
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  49. PM_

    PM_ Professional

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    But really...just to spite you Bp, I'm thinking of going to a "tweener" and whipping some royal baseline ass at my next league. What do you think about that?
     
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  50. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    If that's what it'll take, go for it! :D

    Like I've always said, people should play with whatever suits their style the best and whatever they play the best with. ;) Of course, arm safety is always also a consideration. (Had to add that last line for Marius. ;) )
     
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