Why do people say Federer needs a bigger racquet whenever he loses...........

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by BreakPoint, Jan 30, 2011.

  1. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Why do people say Federer needs a bigger racquet whenever he loses but...............

    ........but nobody ever says that his opponent needs a SMALLER racquet whenever they lose to Federer? :confused:

    And a lot more people lose to Federer than beat Federer.

    I mean, isn't the rationale here that the winner is using the superior racquet while the loser is using the inferior racquet?

    Just asking.......
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
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  2. Sentinel

    Sentinel Talk Tennis Guru

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    Good question. Perhaps, some people need a larger brain :)
     
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  3. CrackerJack

    CrackerJack New User

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    Federer wins in spite of persisting with outdated equipment. That's a testament to his greatness. I, and many others believe he is capable of extracting more out of his game by using a more powerful larger headed frame. Whether we like it or not its a fact the game has evolved into big groundstrokes. Larger headed frames are better suited to the faster modern game. Everyone else from bygone eras have been able to switch since retirement. My hope is that fed does so before he retires.
     
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  4. RFRF

    RFRF Semi-Pro

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    That pro staff has won more grand slams than any other bat ever made. There's nothing wrong with it or rog. He has tried other frames but none can match the feel of it to him. I feel the same way about my prestige classics !And I have tried just about every new frame.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
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  5. CrackerJack

    CrackerJack New User

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    I love the way those racquets feel the pro staff, prestige, max 200g, jack kramer staff....all classics. They have all won bucketloads of grand slams in bygone eras. No comparison in todays game though, even in the hands of the most skilled user. All the fundamentals of the modern game, retrieving, heavy groundstrokes, spin, are all at a disadvantage with smaller classic racquets. No doubt change is a scary proposition, often met with reluctance even cynicism but in my opinion he has more to gain by doing so.
     
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  6. Satch

    Satch Hall of Fame

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    it's not that... just the question if he is so good with 90in how would he play with 95 (if we all know how easier it is to hit with 5in bigger frame)... and it leaves us speechless to even imagine how good he can be :D

    but maybe it's stupid thinking and can lead to even worse game...
     
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  7. OTMPut

    OTMPut Hall of Fame

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    There lies the fallacy.
    The improvement from switching from 90 to 95 is significant for an average club player. The less accomplished, the more is the relative improvement.

    At Fed's level there is little he could improve. It might reduce his shank % by say 5 to 10. He would also lose elsewhere -feel, control (esp with his whippy wristy forehand). He might put more balls into play from his backhand side. That does not mean he would automatically win those points. It is not a straightforward sweet spot math.

    I am sure he is smart enough to weigh up positives & negatives. Apparently he switched from 85 to 90 once. I am sure he would again if he think that would make a positive contribution.
     
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  8. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

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    Can you imagine Roger playing with a Babolat tweener hitting double backhands? This is blasphemy! This is madness!
     
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  9. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    Its hardly ever the racket that causes a shank. Its usually footwork and tired legs.
     
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  10. Satch

    Satch Hall of Fame

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    but most people here think that he is too stubborn to do that :D

    i think that he already tried 95 in private and didn't like it..
     
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  11. stoo

    stoo Semi-Pro

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    Help, I'm steppin' into the twilight zone....

    Exactly!

    Who's to know that he hasn't practised / tested extensively with a bigger frame and just didn't like it?

    The days of serve and volley may be long gone and replaced by rallies filled with baseline bashing, but I think Fed's racquet has served him well and continues to do so.
     
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  12. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    If by "faster" you mean take bigger swings at the ball then I agree. But the game is actually slower.

    The thing that has changed most in the past few years is the courts. They've progressively made creative, shot-making tennis harder and harder so tennis hasn't got faster - it's got slower.

    This slowness has allowed more players to get to and take bigger cuts at balls - getting insane spin and more balls back into play. Seeing how hard it was for anyone to hit through the court at the AO with this year's balls made me wonder what on earth they are thinking at tennis HQ.

    (I'm sure there are cynics who wonder whether it has been done specifically to curb Federer's dominance. :razz:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
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  13. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but in fact, I think the Dunlop Maxply Fort has won more majors than any other frame ever made. 2nd place might even belong to the Jack Kramer.
     
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  14. themitchmann

    themitchmann Hall of Fame

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    Does anyone have any direct knowledge that Fed has actually tried a larger head, or more open pattern?
     
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  15. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Federer himself decided he needed a bigger racquet quite late in his development, so that was a decisive move for his future success.

    The reality is that it does not make any sense for him to change, but the trend toward slow defensive play on slow courts is now even more prominent.

    Twenty or thirty ball rallies from the baseline is quite different from the one-two punch tennis of the nineties.
     
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  16. Audiophile

    Audiophile Rookie

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    Very well said. There is no question the game is much slower.
     
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  17. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Sure about that? What about the Wilson Prostaff 85?

    Sampras - 14
    Edberg - 6
    Courier - 4
    Mary Pierce - 1 (with the Prostaff I think- AO 95)
    Chris Evert - 3 (with the Prostaff I think - AO 84, FO 85, FO 86)
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
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  18. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, there was an article about Serena Williams' last racquet change. It was the one during the Australian Open. She had a blacked-out frame and as it turned out, only had one racquet available for the entire tournament; which by the way she won.

    The racquet was originally destined for Roger Federer to try. That racquet is now the Blade series I believe. Apparently Federer is given dozens of prototypes from Wilson to demo, some just to get his opinion on as they are not good fits for him, but Wilson values his opinion (imagine that).

    To the OP.....folks around here suggest Federer use a bigger frame because they are trying to rationalize his game through their experience. Hey, if it helped them, it's got to be a help to him. The problem is, Federer et. al play a game with which none of us is familiar. Roger Federer is the best judge of what equipment works best for him <Period>.
     
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  19. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    They did this because the serve-volley game had become a serve-serve game, but it has created a problem of another kind.

    For example, it used to be interesting to see passing shot versus volley tennis, but now the passing shot almost always wins.



     
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  20. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    You do know that the Dunlop Maxply Fort was manufactured from 1936-1983. Think about all of those players that used durring that time period and won majors with it. Both men and women.
     
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  21. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    No doubt.

    I imagine a really tricky aspect about testing frames is you can't just have a demo frame and play with it. He'd need stacks of the same frame all strung and weighted differently. You couldn't get a feel for a frame at all if it was strung completely wrong for you... such is the personal nature of racquet preferences.

    I'd like to know just how they do these secret tests. If we're here talking about how a larger frame might help him there is no doubt Wilson have thought of it too and made a racquet based on his current one but with a larger head and with different string spacings.

    Or maybe larger isn't the key, maybe longer is the key. I wonder how much more grunt a Fed custom K61 tour would have if it was 2 inches longer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
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  22. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

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    Yes! :) BHBH
     
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  23. BounceHitBounceHit

    BounceHitBounceHit Legend

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    And we have a winner!!!!!!!!!! ;) BHBH
     
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  24. Don't Let It Bounce

    Don't Let It Bounce Hall of Fame

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    This has to be the bottom line, and it's why it sometimes looks silly when the question keeps coming up.

    But I don't think the question is silly, if for no other reason because other players at/near the top of the game have made that sort of change for that sort of reason. Federer did once already, as pointed out, and Sampras has said publicly that he regrets not having done so late in his career (maybe just on clay; don't remember the exact wording). Courier is making noise recently about moving to a 99 sq" frame, too. So I guess I wouldn't be shocked if Wilson kept trying to find a MP design that works for the guy, but I also wouldn't be shocked if they didn't succeed.
     
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  25. Six.One.Tour.90FAN

    Six.One.Tour.90FAN Professional

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    IMHO, He doesn't need a bigger frame, not at all. Same argument that everyone is making(he's still winning right?)

    However, it would benefit him with todays quicker game.
    I can just imagine him playtesting the BIG BUBBA 29...

    90
     
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  26. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    If the best players had the mindset that no one can play like them and hence they are the best judge of everything, they wouldn't hire coaches then. What a stupid concept. People are not infallible. Only fools who blindly admire players and use them as proxies for their own lives would say that they are.
     
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  27. PeterFig

    PeterFig Professional

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    I posted this photo on another thread too - but it kinda fits here as well.

    You guys do know that he's actually not using a real 90sq in frame. It's actually a paintjob of a much smaller headsized frame - and that's why he loses all these matches. Here is proof positive - it's a photo of Federer's own racquet provided to me by the paint technician at Wilson before the paintjob - and after. So if he actually switched to the real BLX 90 he'd for sure win every slam for the next 5 years.

    [​IMG]
     
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  28. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    You guys realize that the difference is size between a 90 sq. inch head and a 95 is truly small, right? As anyone who has hit the K90/BLX90 as opposed to the K95 or BLX95 will tell you, these are very different racquets. So, it is not like Roger could just use a normal Wilson 95. I understand they are pros playing with a box Wilson 95, but who knows how close it would be to the feel of Roger's current stick.
    Look, Roger may shank a few more balls than other top ten players, but I don't think his racquet choice plays a big part in that. I think he shanks because, one, he plays closer to the baseline to take time away from his opponent more than many other players do which obviously reduces his preparation time and two, he brushes up very quickly on the ball to impart top spin. This means there is less surface string area to strike the ball and more chance for the frame to make contact with the ball. Agassi also took the ball early (he was the best ever at it), but his strokes were flatter which reduced the possibility of his framing the shot.
    As others have said, I think Roger is the best judge of what racquet works for him.
     
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  29. 1970CRBase

    1970CRBase Guest

    Anybody remember how Lendl's transition to 90 in Mizuno from his 70 in Adidas in summer 1990 to win Wim went? (seems he did use the 90 in, big racquet face back then, for playing on grass but went back the Adidas, sometimes with the Mizuno paintjob, for US hc :rolleyes: )

    Get my point?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2011
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  30. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    Modern game is slower.
     
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  31. Pioneer

    Pioneer Professional

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    IMO Berdych would play better with a mid if he can adjust in time.
     
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  32. Pioneer

    Pioneer Professional

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    Well you said it. It was manufactured for 50 years. The PS85 won more majors in it's 20 year life than all other racquets in their 50 year lives ;)

     
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  33. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    Well played sir.
     
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  34. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Maybe if Wilson would make a box beam 95" racket Federer would switch. Right now theh do not have a racket he could switch to.
     
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  35. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    they do make a boxy 95", same stick as Dolgopolov uses! got a few myself..
     
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  36. Dreamcastin

    Dreamcastin Rookie

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    besides, im sure if fed wanted a racquet shaped like a monkey, wilson would make it for him.
     
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  37. gplracer

    gplracer Professional

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    Big Bang, Where did you get those? Is it from that place in Europe that everyone is getting them from? I heard they were out now. I would get on if I could.
     
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  38. Ripster

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    Sampras was using a big powerful babolat racquet in the exo against Monfils last night :)
     
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  39. jeremy45

    jeremy45 New User

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    why not roger with the new blx balde tour ?

    It wouldn't be a good compromise between his actual blx90 and and a 95 size?
     
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  40. big bang

    big bang Hall of Fame

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    because hes not going "bald" yet:)
    Maybe Dunlop should make a "balde tour" for Davydenko:confused:
     
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  41. Djokolate

    Djokolate Professional

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    i do not have a clue why but i laughed silly at that like a 4yr old laughs when someone says poo.
     
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  42. tennisnoob3

    tennisnoob3 Professional

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    because you're 4 years old?
     
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  43. lendlmac

    lendlmac Rookie

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    true he may now have to accept the fact, given his old age, playing with yougner kids with more powerful groundstrokes, to keep up in top 5, just switch to a larger racquet, and join the club...
     
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  44. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Imagine how many more times Roddick would have beaten Federer if only he had used a smaller racquet. :shock:
     
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  45. Funbun

    Funbun Professional

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    ^^lol can't tell if BreakPoint is joking or is serious.

    I mean, Federer can beat out the rest of the ATP below him, and they use smaller racquets.

    Headsize doesn't mean crap. Federer's number 3, for god's sake! Beating Nadal and Djokovic is more than ever a matter of strategy, tactics, than anything else.
     
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  46. Praetorian

    Praetorian Professional

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    It's simple really. People look to their own flawed experiences, and foolishly think what they go through applies to the champions. For instance, a 1.0-wannabe 5.0 hacker who lacks power, blames the racket. A champion blames fitness, technique, timing. By the logic on this board, you would think that for every ranking pt, the player should use a racket 1 sq in larger, and they would play just as well as the person above them. Remember, it's the bad carpenter that blames his tools.

    For instance, Djokovic uses a 98 sq in head.
    Nadal - 99 sq in to beat him
    Federer - 100 to beat nadal
    player #100 - 198 sq in to beat #99 who's using a 197 sq in racket.

    Ridiculous isn't it.

    Imagine of Roger was to say to all his critics, "OK, I'll play you, and everytime you lose, you need play with a racket 5 sq inches larger. If you eventually get to a size that's illegal for tennis. JUST QUIT TENNIS". ALL of the know-it-alls on this boards would be picking up another sports in less than a week.
     
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  47. lendlmac

    lendlmac Rookie

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    Yet federer continues o lose now with that same 90 racquet as everyone else is more powerful than he is
     
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  48. preacha89

    preacha89 New User

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    Totally agree. I mean I look at Federer playing today and it doesn't seem that Federer lacks power by any means, particularly off the forehand. Let's be clear, there are serious matchup problems with Fed vs Djoko and Rafa. I just think that vs the top two, Fed has to go for more because of their defensive skills. Therefore, he has to try to take the ball earlier and perhaps hit with more racquet head speed, especially off the backhand. So with that, clearly your going have more mishits. You see it on the slow motion replays sometimes when Fed is trying to pronate the wrist before contact with the ball, leading to shanks. I just feel that with Fed's game based so much on precision and timing, a larger racquet head would not help because ultimately, with Fed's technique, you still have to time the ball incredibly well, despite the racquet head size, and it is just downright hard to consistently do that.
     
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  49. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Really? Federer has won more tournaments and has the best win-loss record of anyone on tour in the past 9 months using his 90 sq. in. racquet.

    I find it a bit ironic that someone with the screen name "lendlmac" would advocate Federer switching to a 95 sq. in. + racquet when Lend himself dominated the tour using a 75 sq. in. racquet and McEnroe dominated the tour first with a 65 sq. in. wood racquet and then with an 82 sq. in. graphite racquet.
     
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  50. lendlmac

    lendlmac Rookie

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    yes in 1991, he switched to a 90sq Mizuno, and played pretty consistently, but for his severe ongoing back issues...he retired but he made the switch, no EGO....ala Federer and Sampras

    I'm all for small racquets, I play with my Dunlop Max 200G to this day and blow locals here off the court, in fun...but playing onthe Tour, against fast young kids, with larger racquets and more powerful kids in general, Federer has gotta make the switch to have a chance...he can win all the little tournaments he wants to..

    Lend won 94 titles, but no one talks about that, only his 8 GS, using his 75 in sq Adidas GTX Pro racquet....

    Federer can win all thel ittle tournaments he wants to, but he still wants GS, No? so he needs to switch...if he doesn't fine...only he CANNOT complain when he loses in GS against these younger guys... he CAN'T complain... he does though, everytime...
     
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