why do people think federer has a better serve than roddick???

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by manny pacquiao P4P king, May 25, 2009.

  1. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    it's mind boggling, that some people think that federer has a better serve than roddick.

    So i looked at the stats and roddick gets 70% of his 1st serves in, federer has 60, and we know that in big matches - A0 2008 he served incredibly ****, and double faulted at 5-5 in the TB against roddick in madrid. so roddick has the advantage of where that is concerned.

    they're both tied on 2nd serve points won. but roddick is leading out of the two on 1st serve points won, so basically, roddick wins more points on serve in total than federer does.

    roddick leads on the aces and service games won, however, i know some of you might say federer doesn't go for aces, he goes for the accurate serve to set a point up - ********. if you hold more service games that everyone else you have the best serve.PERIOD

    Roddick's serve was the main reason he won a slam, and got to number 1 in the world, people will say he's one dimensional but oh well. federer's didn't.

    i actually consider roddick's serve to be behind only sampras, ivanisevic and karlovic (karlovic was tall though, if roddick was karlovic's height we would probably be watching the best server of all time play). you could say that becker is ahead of him, but i don't know because i dont watch him.

    And lastly, don't say that roddick doesn't have accuracy because that is what has improved about his serve this year - and he also has power with that accuracy too.
     
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  2. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    It's probably because Fed always seems to hit the big serve/ace on BP's. What's their BP saved percentage in comparison???
     
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  3. RCizzle65

    RCizzle65 Hall of Fame

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    Since when did Nadal have one of the better serves on tour?
    Argument failed.
     
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  4. flyer

    flyer Hall of Fame

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    because they are delusional, federer doesnt even think he has a better serve than roddick, just let those people talk and you just know your right and go on your way
     
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  5. Cenc

    Cenc Hall of Fame

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    because he does have
    he has much better placement than roddick with solid speed
    much more variety as well
    so imo feds serve>rods serve
     
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  6. Joseph L. Barrow

    Joseph L. Barrow Professional

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    I don't know about this season, but most years Roddick has a higher break-points saved total than Federer (in fact, he's frequently #1 on the tour in that department.
     
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  7. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    There are a lot of Fed fanboys on this site. According to them he has the best serve, best return, best forehand, and can beat anyone when he feels like it. So far off are these delusional posters.
     
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  8. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    It is true that Roddick has a higher 1st serve pct than Federer. (70 to 60). H-e, Federer has saved a higer pct of BPs (67 to 63). They both are great servers, but as I mentioned, the amt of BPs Fed saves is probably why people think of his serve as better.
     
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  9. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    I remember Djokovic winning 5 games in a row twice against Federer and Nadal breaking Fed at will last year in RG. He is not that great of a server. Better than Nadal of course but far from the best.
     
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  10. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    So Fed sucks at serving. OK, just ignore facts and put out opinion as fact. BRILLIANT!!!
     
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  11. maximo

    maximo Banned

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    Murray's serve is the best.
     
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  12. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    I'm sure Fed will be quite alright for having 13 slams and an all court game, rather than just a big serve and 1 slam.
     
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  13. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

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    No it isn't he usually cant serve at a high percentage when he goes for big serves and his second serve is weak at best he has nowhere near the best serve in the game.
     
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  14. Joseph L. Barrow

    Joseph L. Barrow Professional

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    Roddick's serve is clearly, undeniably better than Federer's according to more or less any objective standard. In an average Roddick match, he hits more aces, fewer double faults, has a higher first serve percentage, and holds serve more often than Federer does in one of his own.

    In particular, the service games held statistic is clearly telling. I think we can all agree that Federer is clearly superior to Roddick in virtually every conceivable aspect of tennis aside from the serve. He has the better forehand, backhand, volleys, court coverage, tactics, the works. The fact that Roddick (who plays on the same tour against primarily the same group of opponents) has consistently won a significantly higher percentage of his service games than Federer has for the last several years, however, indicates that Roddick must be better than Federer at something. Given the fact, as previously stated, that Federer is/was (it could be fairly pointed out that in this period since Federer's decline, Roddick is also steadier and less error-prone than Federer) superior in every other important aspect of the game, the only remaining major factor which could create this gap in Roddick's favor is the serve. If Federer had the superior forehand, backhand, volleys, court coverage, tactical intelligence, etc., and even had a better serve than Roddick to boot, there is no rational way that, both men playing on the same tour against more or less the same set of opponents, Federer would not win a higher percentage of his service games than Roddick.
     
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  15. maximo

    maximo Banned

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    [​IMG]
     
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  16. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    seeing as there aren't many great servers anymore, its possible - and nadal's spin serve is good - and he gets alot in aswell, its probably the most improved shot of the last year or so
     
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  17. downdaline

    downdaline Professional

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    I dont think Federer has a better serve, but i think he uses it better than Roddick, and has better service game altogether.

    Also, the placement is better, whereas Roddicks is faster. IMO, placement > speed.
     
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  18. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    roddick hold 90% of service games.............FACT - better service game

    regarding speed and accuracy - you need both. FACT
     
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  19. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    90% to 88% isn't that big of a difference. And Federer's probably played more service games, seeing how he's gotten deeper into more tourneys.
     
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  20. theduh

    theduh Semi-Pro

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    Answer is simple. Fed's service is well placed and most of the time unreadable as supposed to Roddick's service which I admit is fast but not well placed and can be easily read.
     
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  21. helloworld

    helloworld Hall of Fame

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    Here's a small list of people who has superior serve than Roddick;
    -Sampras
    -Ivanisevic
    -Krajicek
    -Becker
    -Stich
    -Karlovic
    -Arthurs
     
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  22. fps

    fps Legend

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    federer's serve does have to hold up against the very best more often. you say he served badly in one match, against nadal in AO2009, and somehow try and make that apply to his entire career, which is false logic. but you have to ask how often roddick would have held against nadal. he doesn't play the big boys as often as federer. you can hold all your service games against opposition just below the top level, doesn't mean your serve's the best, just means it's the best against those guys who aren't the best. look at how federer handles roddick's serve. nadal i'm sure can play it in a similar fashion.

    best serve on tour? karlovic. that serve is his entire career.
     
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  23. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    read the ****ing post.....i never said roddick had the best serve ever did i
     
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  24. sh@de

    sh@de Hall of Fame

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    Federer's serve has declined quite a lot in the past two years I think.

    However, he used to be very clutch from 04-07 with his serve. That's the reason his serve was considered to be so good. If I remember correctly, I think he didn't miss a single first serve in one of the tiebreaks, or both, during the 07 USO final. That has got to be frustrating for the returner. Another example is TMC 07 vs Nadal. There was that incredible game where Fed was down 0-30 and then just served 4 aces straight and won the game.

    Another thing about Fed's serve which many people consider so good is the disguise. He can hit any spin and place it anywhere with the same motion. Disguise is very important at top level tennis. One thing Tipsarevic mentioned after the 5 setter against Fed in AO 08 was the he simply couldn't read Fed's serve.

    These are all reasons Fed's serve is considered one of the best.

    That said, now that Fed doesn't really seem to be able to clutch serve so much, so maybe he's not 'one of the best' anymore, I wouldn't know. One thing I do know is that Fed still has one heck of an annoying second serve. The placement, spin and disguise on that serve is excellent. I suppose in terms of first serves, he isn't one of the best anymore, but I would rank him right up there when talking about second serves.
     
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  25. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    Fed's game backs up his serve better. Roddick gets many more unreturned serves to avoid exposing himself as a weak baseliner.
     
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  26. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    If roddick had a weak baseline game he'd be a Karlovic. Except Roddick is currently ranked 6. So no; I'd say his baseline game is pretty good; his weakest link is his movement, which Federer, Nadal, and other top players expose.
     
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  27. MasturB

    MasturB Hall of Fame

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    I think Fed had the best double fault rate of any player on tour a few years ago.
     
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  28. IvanAndreevich

    IvanAndreevich Legend

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    '08 was Federer best serving season ever. Serve was bailing him out match after match. The rest of his game was making lots of errors.

    After that back injury his serve has gone to crap, yes. But looks like it's back now, just in time for Wimby :)
     
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  29. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    If Roddick has a much worse ground game, volleys, movement, and mentality than Federer as most people on this board agree, and he still manages to win more service games, he obviously has a better serve.
    I would argue that his serve is at least on par with Sampras' in terms of effectiveness. Unfortunately he can't back it up with much.
     
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  30. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    My point exactly. He is a one-trick pony. Though I do give him credit for that trick that he has.
     
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  31. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    1 trick pony that is world #6?
     
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  32. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    Karlovic would be a better example of a one-trick pony. Roddick has been able to develop his ground game and return game and is probably around top 50 in the world in that department. But he certainly is not comparable in his groundstrokes and especially his movement to others at the very top.
     
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  33. Joseph L. Barrow

    Joseph L. Barrow Professional

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    Exactly, although the "can't back it up" should be put in context of relativity to guys like Federer and Sampras- Roddick is still a good player even aside from the serve. Even his returning statistics are still in the top 40 on the tour.
     
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  34. RoddickAce

    RoddickAce Hall of Fame

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    I know I don't. Roddick's serve placement is very underrated. Most people (well, of the people I know) that claim his serve placement suck have not watched many Roddick matches and simply base this on what other people say.

    I mean come on, you look at Sampras's serve, which many claim as the best serve ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88VJbv3X6-4 Sampras can hit smack on the line if he wanted to, but does he hit the ball smack on the line every single time? No way! Go to 0:53, 3:57 etc.

    Does Roddick hit smack on the line everytime? Not a chance. But can he do that? You bet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU95BItKFug Go to 5:40 for an example.

    Just cuz Roddick likes to go for the body serve against Fed, doesn't mean he can't place it.

    Also, the funny thing is, like I said many times before in other threads, people claim that Roddick has no ground game. Ok, and then he has no serve placement. Ok, so how does he win so many service games and be ranekd in the top 10 so long.

    Some will say that his power wins him those points, not his placement. Ok then I guess we should all teach players to go for power and not placement? Since Roddick, who "only has power" on his serve wins more service points, has more aces, has better serve consistency than Federer, who has a supposedly better serve because of placement.

    If some still think Federer has vastly superior placement than Roddick, then my question is: What good is serve placement if power wins more points? How can one serve be better than the other if it helps the server win less points?
     
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  35. Nadal_Freak

    Nadal_Freak Banned

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    They both are. Nothing wrong with that though. You use what you got.
     
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  36. toptalent

    toptalent Rookie

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    Roddick has a better serve when considering the overall stats he delivers on the tour. He has a considerable higher 1st serve percentage (often in the 70's even 80's), considerable higher average speed (Mid 120's, sometimes even 130's) and higher number of service games won. After all, serving is Roddick's single most important weapon by far to hold his place in today's competition, while Federer has been known to struggling with serving when it mattered the most in the recent year.

    However the impression that Federer has a better serve really strikes WHENEVER Federer plays Roddick. The facts are:

    1, In almost all the Federer vs Roddick head to head, Federer out served Roddick by having more aces, higher percentage service points won and more service games won. Lagging slightly only on the first serve percentage.

    2, Federer delivers more aces when playing Roddick than against almost all other top 10 players. He almost never struggles with serving when playing Roddick, compared to his games against other top players such as Nadal.

    3, Roddick has considerable lower serving stats (be it 1st serve percentage, average speed or aces) when playing against Federer than against almost all other players.

    The conclusion is, Federer is one of the best readers and retuners of the Roddick serve and Roddick on the other hand is one of the worst readers and returners of the Federer serve. This is probably technical, but mental factors can also play a big factor (Roddick has very little confidence against Federer while Federer is very confident against Roddick).
     
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  37. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Both have great serves but I'd still take roddick's serve anytime than federer's.
     
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  38. RoddickAce

    RoddickAce Hall of Fame

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    Nice post, totally agree with you.
     
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  39. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Roddick has finals at Wimbledon, a win at the USO, SF at Indian Wells, and titles on clay, slow hcs, fast hcs, etc.



    He can't be a one trick pony and do all that.
     
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  40. Kostas

    Kostas Semi-Pro

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    Whoever has access to all the data should look at the service games won by each weighted by the rankings of their opponents.

    I would imagine the average rank of Fed's opponents would be somewhat higher than the average rank of Andy's opponents. You could also categorize the service games something like vs. Top 10, Top 25, Top 50 etc.

    This might give you a better indication as Andy's results may not be "pulled down" significantly enough due to the fact he doesn't face as tough of competition on average.

    I have no idea what the numbers would come out to be but it'd be interesting.
     
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  41. 380pistol

    380pistol Banned

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    Cuz there are some aspects of Federer's serve that are superior to Roddick's.
     
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  42. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

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    Roddick is consistently in the quarters/semis of most tournaments. He plays plenty of higher ranked opponents.
     
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  43. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    c'mon, roddick has got a decent ground game - he's got weapons - huge forehand still and his backhand is getting better. But, if he didn't have that serve he would have to improve other lements of his game
     
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  44. All-rounder

    All-rounder Legend

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    HUGE forehand you must be lost in 2003 his forehand is weak now compared to what it was back then
     
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  45. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    but he can still hit hard, he just chooses to play % better - his game has matured.
     
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  46. All-rounder

    All-rounder Legend

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    His game has matured but it has cost him now he finds himself playing the baseline game most of the time
     
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  47. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    lets not forget, roddick purposely changed his game because the evolution of tennis suddenly changed in a few years.

    First - roddick hit quite a few errors hitting the living crud outta the ball - high risk will cost you eventually. and lets not forget that high risk play was normal for the game at this point (03/04) because returning wasn't as good and the surfacefavoured fast shots.

    secondly - the courts got slower, there's gonna be no point hitting the cover off the ball on the really slow surfaces because the defence game improved so much that the ball's would just keep coming back - meaning more unforced errors.

    I admit, his forehand has declined in recent years because he puts way too much spin on the ball for my liking - buit everything else about his game has improved quite a bit. he's fitter and can get balls back - or he can play aggressive - meaning he isn't one dimensional at all.
     
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  48. Kostas

    Kostas Semi-Pro

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    I'm not saying he doesn't...be in relation to Fed how are his opp's rankings? Andy also plays in more smaller tournies (Memphis) as well.

    Just a quick glance at Andy's opponents for 2009 shows me an average ranking of 71 for 35 matches. Fed has an average opp ranking of 43 for 33 matches.

    I would have to think a variance that significant would affect their relative statistics.
     
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  49. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i think if you ask roddick who has a better serve between federer and himself, he would say federer.
     
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  50. manny pacquiao P4P king

    manny pacquiao P4P king Banned

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    federer fans cant take federer's decline.
     
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