Why do people with lessons with through the ball more?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by krprunitennis2, Apr 22, 2011.

  1. krprunitennis2

    krprunitennis2 Professional

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    I tried searching for topics about 'moonballing,' 'high balls,' or 'high topspin' on the forums, but found nothing helpful.

    Everytime I look up a video on youtube, or see a player who has been getting tennis lessons for a while, I notice that their shots are more often nice topspin drives. Great shots. I'll refer to such players as A-players.
    One of the coaches in our school highly advocates the moonball. I know, I know, most of you might say that it is stupid and pusher tennis, so please refrain from posting such replies. I am aware of this side of the story.

    My point is when I watch A-players in a match, their drive shots do move through the court nicely, and this forces the players to move quickly laterally, or else the ball will move past them.

    When I watch moonballers play (the better ones that also use topspin and place their shots, not the dink-pushers), their shots land deep and push their opponents deeper behind the baseline.

    Personally, the topspin moonball works much better for me rather than hitting the topspin drive. From my experience, it's an effective shot, and I play against people who have taken lots of tennis lessons and have nice strokes.

    But my question is that if this is such an effective shot, why do pros not use it? In exception of Nadal, I don't know of any other player with groundstrokes that are anywhere close to being moonball-like. I'm pretty sure that they would still have some trouble facing high balls. Or is there something that I'm not seeing?
     
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  2. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    Pros tend to stay away from the defensive approach because it is more labour intensive than being the aggressor and you also have to be able to move very well. Sacrificing pace for spin and margin over the net against a quality player, means you are more vulnerable to being attacked which, unless you are an extremely good mover able to chase down a lot of balls, is a losing strategy.
     
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  3. cocolate

    cocolate Banned

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    i think monfils should moonball, he would do better.
     
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  4. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    Oh man, I don't know what to say about this title...

    "Why do people with lessons with through the ball more?"

    Maybe just PROOFREAD.

    Anyways, I don't think hitting moonballs and running up a long 30 stroke rally is advantagous to any pro if that pro (and most all pros at that level can hit through the ball) can shorten the points and play winners. Ask yourself this. If you hit all those balls, what is your strategy for a point construction? You might as well be rallying. There is no point construction because your opponent would not miss because he's at a level where that ball is coming back probably with a more offensive and better angled ball. So what is in it for you to loop a ball high up if he can pick it off and make you run and construct a point that will help him place himself in a winning position? You can hit those balls with your friends because your friends might actually miss a few, pros will not miss and it does nothing to progress the point in your favor. It just accomplishes nothing when you're playing against quality players as such.
     
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  5. cocolate

    cocolate Banned

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    it is advantageous enough for Nadal to win o couple slams by moonballing alone
     
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  6. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    Nadal is only able to do this because he moves as well as he does and has the mental and physical stamina to run as much as is required to defend against good aggressive players. Not everyone is going to be able to do that as well.
     
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  7. Netzroller

    Netzroller Semi-Pro

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    Have you ever watched these so called "moonballs" live!?
    They still have lots of pace and >4000rpm... That's why most pro's are unable to take them on the rise and attack even short balls
    This has absolutely nothing to do with what rec players do
     
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  8. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    yes nadals shots on average are not much slower than the other top10 guys. they are all around 70 MPH on average (maybe söderling and DP a little more).

    that's hardly moonballing.

    also even the flatter hitters have a ton of spin and quite some net clearnance. unless they go for a winner or passing shot the average net clearance is maybe around 2-3 feet over the net cord.
     
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  9. OneMoreShot

    OneMoreShot Rookie

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    Nadal does not win due to hitting "moonballs". He is able to have a lot of clearance over the net and have pace due to the RPMs he is able to have on the ball. It is still moving fast unlike a traditional moonball.
     
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  10. single_handed_champion

    single_handed_champion Professional

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    Nadal uses the deep, high balls (I disdain the term moonball because of the negative connotations) to push opponents back and then hits short angles to draw opponents wide before going into the space or wrong-footing them i.e. he doesn't just hit the same deep ball every time even when he is in an offensive position.
     
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  11. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I get so tired of these idiots calling rafas shots moonballs, that proves they have no clue to what a moonball is.

    He uses a higher trajectory with mega spin that fires the ball off the court, the ball jumps up+off to the side. I sat first row watching him play+that ball is nasty coming off the ground.
     
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  12. DjokerIsTheBest

    DjokerIsTheBest Banned

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    I get so tired of these idiots that don't understand the relativistic aspect of words. Nadal's shots are "moonballing" relative to what other pros hit, especially Federer or say Delpo. But that only Nadal can hit these type of shots does not take away from their great effectiveness despite their appearance as moonballs on the court.
     
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  13. tenis1

    tenis1 Banned

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    Am I the only one who is confused by the title. :confused:
     
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  14. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    This.

    They've obviously never gone to a live professional tennis match
     
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  15. Ray Mercer

    Ray Mercer Semi-Pro

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    Nadal doesn't have the technique or form to can't hit flat drives ala Fed, Del Po or other pros.
     
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  16. rdis10093

    rdis10093 Hall of Fame

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    any uper level player should be able to hit on the rise, which would stop the topspin. thats why you don't see pros using moonballs. For example everyonce and a while you while you will see federer step forward on his backhand and hit a very clean ball. Clearly it's harder against someone like nadal.

    None the less pros and uper level NTRP players hit most balls on the rise and attack
     
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  17. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    I think Moonballs are great only when returning serves......for opponents who don't like to come in.
     
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  18. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I see it is the relativistic aspects of words, ya right twist it around until it sounds good to you. There are hundreds of posts saying that rafa is a moonballer, which shows these people have no clue on what a moonball is.

    I have seen plenty of moonballs at the amateur level, especially with high school girls tennis. These shots are very high with little if any spin, they are basically a low lob. They have no resemblance to what rafa hits whatsoever, but maybe it is the relativistic aspect of words.

    Nadal shots are not moonballing relative to any other player. He hits with a higher trajectory+a lot more spin, so what just because he is smart enough to use more net clearance does not make him a moonballer. When he gets the opening in a point he will flatten his shots out for a put away. He hits a lot of winners that are a foot or two above the net, but i suppose because they are not at 1 foot or less like delpo they are still moonballs.
     
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  19. gavna

    gavna Hall of Fame

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    So true - if you really want to see what a moonballer looked like look up some old footage of Harold Solomon. The guy turned it into an art form but I will agree watching him play could be painful for the fan. It also took a huge toll on him as I remember that during the clay court season he would lose so much weight in his matches. He once lost like 10 lbs during a match at the French due to the amount of effort.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2011
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  20. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    I thought that too (even started a thread) but nadal is able to do that. he often hits them in practice and sometimes in matches, but very rarely.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu9_dWGG8Ls

    I wish he would do it more often though, I think he does not use that enough and hits too many loopy balls.
     
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  21. DjokerIsTheBest

    DjokerIsTheBest Banned

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    You clearly don't have the capacity to understand.
     
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  22. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    I clearly do have the capacity to understand. But because you are wrong you have nothing to counter with, see once the bs is sorted out your argument goes out the window.
     
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  23. DjokerIsTheBest

    DjokerIsTheBest Banned

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    No, you do not.
     
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  24. krprunitennis2

    krprunitennis2 Professional

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    So what I'm understanding here is that moonballing in higher level play is inefficient and actually 'harmful' because professionals can easily take balls on the rise and attack more often? But Nadal utilizes this moonball-like (or maybe better off described "high deep ball," but i'm sticking with moonball-like to maintain coherence) shot to the opponent's backhand to get a decent ball that he can definitely attack.

    Why don't we see other players doing this? *From previous posts, it's because they aren't fast enough/not good enough movers. They aren't Nadal. So I'm guessing that in the pro level, moonballs are completely destroyed by the players because they could hit the ball on the rise in their sleep (except Nadal's moonball 9000).

    But why don't we see the juniors do the same then? I can't imagine them hitting the on the rise ball as cleanly and as consistently. Why don't we see more moonballs in this tier? Or maybe I'm just not seeing the correct videos then.

    ---------------------------------------------
    Sorry for the title, and sorry for me pretty much digressing from the topic. Just curious. I'll be gone soon. haha
     
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  25. krprunitennis2

    krprunitennis2 Professional

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    Also, I'm guessing that what separates a good player from a professional is their ability to take the ball on the rise?

    If so, what would you work on to execute the on the rise shot consistently with good pace? I hear "short backswing" a lot, but the pros don't seem to have such a short backswing.
     
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  26. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    I saw that title, then started reading, and thought: What the heck do this title have to do with "moon-balling"?
     
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  27. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    Against good players getting on offence is the way to win...
    Against good Jr's throwing up a moonball to win the point isn't going to get you anywhere
    Now if your looking at U12s you may see some kid moonballing affectively.(Then again most kids arent because they are trying to improve.)
     
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  28. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    you don't need a short backwing but and early backswing. whether your backswing is flat and short like roger or super loopy like moya doesn't matter. it just has to begin early (before the last step).

    If you want to take balls on the rise the backswing has to be completed before the ball bounces and the forward swing starts about by the time the ball bounces.

    It's all about timing.

    however don't overestimate the need for taking balls on the rise. It's a very advanced tactic and there are many top 50 guys who would bagle any college player and almost never take balls on the rise.

    other aspects of the game are more important and have to be mastered first. then you can start to work on hitting the ball on the rise.

    but certainly a good topspin from 7 foot behind the baseline (gasquet plays like that all the time and he is top20) is better than a weak hit on the rise.

    So first use the hitting on the rise only on easy short balls.
     
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  29. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Exactly that is real moon balling, which could never be compared to what rafa hits. But because of all the haters out there they just look for anything to bash nadal on. Rafa hits the ball higher with a lot of spin, which should be classified as looping topspin shots because that is what they are, no relation to moon balls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  30. BigForehand

    BigForehand Semi-Pro

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    it works at your age because you are a kid, short, and slow.

    For anyone with decent skill its easy to sprint towards a moonball, drive volley it into a corner, and continue approaching.

    in other words, you lose.
     
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  31. jkang909

    jkang909 Rookie

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    OK, if a pro were to hit high topspin balls as their routine shot... he would get ran ragged by everyone who can hit a volley/swing volley....

    imagine... an extremely good moonballer/high topspin against federer. federer would just anticipate the high ball everytime and he would go to the net
     
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  32. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    Players actually attack Nadal's ball pretty well, but he defends so well it's very hard to get the ball past him. His modus operandi is to get enough balls back for them to eventually defeat themselves by making too many errors. This is why he is described as a defensive player. If those errors are not forthcoming he loses.

    Being a defensive player is not considered the ideal way to play tennis for some of the reasons already mentioned. It's too labour intensive and you're ceding control of the point to your opponent. I expect most juniors coming up will want to develop their games towards the ideal, which is an aggressive player who takes the bull by the horns and dictates the point, determining their own destiny so to speak. Historically this been the most effective and appealing strategy.
     
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  33. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Well duuuhhh!!!

    All people who have seen a Nadal match live have said how incredibly powerful his strokes(the spinny ones as in most of them) are and how faster they are live than on tv. No doubt, Rafa does hit the odd moonball when he is really out of position but most of his spinny strokes are quite powerful.

    Moonballing won't work on any pro level on the mens tour. Moonballing and topspinning are two different things.
     
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  34. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    #34
  35. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    No, plenty of juniors and amateurs can take the ball on the rise just fine, obviously with varying degrees of effectiveness.

    What separates a pro from a non-pro is a higher level of execution in all areas, greater fitness and professionalism. Pros have greater directional control over the ball, make fewer unforced errors, can deal with a wider array of oncoming balls, hit bigger, move and anticipate better, react quicker, have better poise, cope better with pressure and are fitter. This is all acquired from hours and hours and hours of thoughtful practice, matchplay and quality coaching over many years.

    As for hitting the ball of the rise, it's easier with a shorter backswing but can also be executed with a long backswing, just with lower percentages. To work on it I would recommend a shorter backswing, uncomplicated technique, early preparation and just continuing to do it, amending and adjusting for greater effectiveness as you go along. Like anything, it takes hardwork and practice to do it well.
     
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  36. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    Whether you are being coached or not, you get to a level of match play where a short ball...even a well hit short ball means the end of the point. If you can hit near the base line constantly...and heavy topspin helps this...you will win most matches you play as attacking becomes low percentage for your opponent. IMO, this is how most of the top players actually win.
     
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  37. DjokerIsTheBest

    DjokerIsTheBest Banned

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    Topspin lob is essentially moonball if you use it even when the opponent is back at the baseline.
     
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  38. tlm

    tlm Legend

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    Thank you i agree 100%, but djokeristhebest does not have the capacity to understand this.
     
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  39. single_handed_champion

    single_handed_champion Professional

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    I love Nadal's moonballs. Nobody else is able to deal with them, so the rest of the players are djokes and Nadal is just plain smart to keep showing up these idiots time and time again, sometimes in humiliating fashion.

    Do haters ever wonder why Federer shanks so many balls against Nadal? Can it be, gasp, because of the tremendous rotation and depth of the ball, which makes it impossible to hit it clean on the rise each and every time? NO, it is probably because he is a softy and cannot deal with moonballs. He was reportedly destroyed by Chris Evert 6-0, 6-0 the only time they every played.
     
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  40. above bored

    above bored Semi-Pro

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    Federer shanks balls against everyone.
     
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  41. cucio

    cucio Legend

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