Why does Federer match up well to Djokovic?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tennis_fan_182, Aug 28, 2011.

  1. tennis_fan_182

    tennis_fan_182 Banned

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    Don't talk about mental things - as slam champions these guys obviously have big mental toughness. Leave the issue of peaking at different times out as well - because we've seen that a post-peak Federer beat an absolute peak Djokovic.

    What in Federer's GAME allows him to have had a good head-2-head against Djokovic through his career?

    ie. the serve? The backhand (lol). The slice?

    Please elaborate.
     
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  2. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Lots of people had a good head to head vs the old Djoko. I don't feel Fed matches well to the new Djoko at all. He lost to him 3 times on hard court this year including AO and IW.
    People read way too much in that 1 RG loss. Djoko played a lousy match (maybe because of the 4 day break, who knows) and that's mainly what there is to it.
     
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  3. If you knew anything about tennis you would see that Federer MADE Djokovic look "less good", something Ralphie is not capable of. Questions?
     
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  4. Telepatic

    Telepatic Legend

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    It's not hard to make someone look less good when the whole crowd is behind you..

    Anyway, I think it's the slice, Fed bothered him with those and forced Nole to attack.
    That along with strong serve which Nole lacks unlike Fed.
     
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  5. Netspirit

    Netspirit Hall of Fame

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    It's very simple. Djokovic is a righty, so he does not have that loopy spinny forehand-to-1HBH advantage. His backhand is relatively flat, non-wristy, and simply does not break down (prime) Federer's backhand.
     
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  6. These guys can deal with that sort of things. Dont you agree?

    Yes. And Yes.
     
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  7. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    No, you're deluded. Djoko WAS less good in that match. It's a fact, not an impression. You cannot draw a trend or generalities from just 1 match, doesn't work. We'll talk about Fed matching up well to the new Djoko if he beats Djoko again. So far, this year, they've played 4 times and in 3 out of those 4 times Fed actually made Djoko seem extremely good.
    If you're talking about 2009 and 2010, well, a lot of players could beat Djoko then including Nadal, Tsonga, Roddick, etc
     
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  8. I am not deluded. You obviously didnt get my point, sure , Djokovic had way more UE:s in that match than in previous matches, matches against Ralphie, etc etc. You know why? Because Federer FORCED them. Thats what he does, throws your rhytm away, flat, spin, angles,slice, incredible serving.
     
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  9. djokovic2008

    djokovic2008 Hall of Fame

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    EXACTLY, especially in 09/10 was experimental djoker with all the todd martin stuff. The h2h this year is 3-1 to djoker. Everybody was beating djoker then he is atleast 20% better now!!!
     
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  10. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Fed managed to force them because Djoko's level was lower. He did it in 1 match out of 4, that's not enough to draw the kind of conclusions that you're drawing unless you want to make an argument that Djoko matches up well to Fed ON CLAY and even then it would be difficult to demonstrate a trend based on 1 MATCH only and the reason why there was only 1 match is because Fed didn't play well enough in the best of 3 on clay to get to meet Djoko. Wake me up when he does. As far as hard court is concerned, all I saw is complete domination from Djoko.
     
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  11. Djokovic managed to miss a lot because Federers level was higher that day. Lights out!

    Nah, Federer made lots of errors in those matches, so you cant draw any conclusions from those 3 HC-meetings.

    :-?
     
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  12. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Yes, you can start drawing stats from 3 matches in 3 different events whereas 1 match is just an isolated case.
     
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  13. tennis_fan_182

    tennis_fan_182 Banned

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    I wonder if Nadal picks his butt so much because your head is jammed so far up it?
     
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  14. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    This thread has nothing to do with Nadal.
     
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  15. Bryan Swartz

    Bryan Swartz Hall of Fame

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    He has a pretty darn good point. 1 match is a far worse sample size than three and makes for a much more reliable trend. That's simply a fact.
     
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  16. 1 surface all 3 matches
     
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  17. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    How can it be more reliable if it's a worse sample? I'm confused.
     
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  18. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    yes... er and the RG match was just 1 match on 1 surface.
    3 matches on 1 surface give more info than 1 match on 1 surface, no :confused:
     
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  19. Slightly!!
     
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  20. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Fed definitely match up well while Nadal is his worst nightmare against Nole. Clay is fed's worst surface but nadal's best, but Fed is the one who can beat Nole on clay. Nole would have beaten Nadal at the FO this year, only he was relieved when Fed(match up better) took Nole out.
     
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  21. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    You didn't see the match. Nole was consistently playing high level throughout the year hence his winning streak. The FO semi was even higher quality than Rome and Madrid.
     
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  22. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Not true. If you're talking in general, both Fed and Nadal lead their head to head vs Djoko. About RG, you cannot tell whether Nadal would have beaten Djoko or not. Djoko was playing subpar and Nadal is another animal at RG (same as M-C).
    Clay is not Fed's worst surface anymore, it's his best as demonstrated by the fact the only slam final Fed made this year is RG. Let's see what happens at USO. Right now Fed is 1-3 vs Djoko. That doesn't indicate "matching up well" on any other surface than clay.
     
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  23. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Yes, I saw and I thought Djoko played a terrible match like he did in 2010 when he got ousted by Melzer and in 2009 by Kohl. RG seems to be Djoko's worst tournament so far. It's weid because he has been doing well in the clay masters.
     
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  24. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Why can't you give credit to Federer for coming out and playing a great match in that RG semi? He served wonderfully,moved the best I have seen him in a long time,and simply outplayed Djokovic. To me it's just more proof that Djokovic is taking advantage of an old Federer and a burnt out declining Nadal because once Fed showed up and actually played like he can,Novak lost like he used to do more often than not. It's no coincidence.

    And you should also be thanking Federer that he was able to beat Novak or else Nadal would be slamless this year. I know you loathe Federer,but give the dude his due for coming out and doing what Nadal has failed to do in 5 tries this year.
     
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  25. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    As I already said, Rafa is incredibly determined at RG. I think if he had played Novak he would have had a better chance of beating him in the RG final than in the W final and if he had won the RG final, he would probably have won W too. So, it was actually a disservice to Rafa for Fed to beat Djoko at RG and yes I give credit to Fed for beating Djoko (although it didn't help him win the event anyway). All I'm saying is that it's only 1 match and one cannot draw general conclusions of "matching well" from just 1 match when one is 1-3 overall for the year vs another player.
     
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  26. kevoT

    kevoT Semi-Pro

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    Because he still has mental confidence over djoko!
     
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  27. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    Nadal had absolutely zero chance of beating Novak if he would have made it to the final at RG. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. He could not even take a set off of Novak in 2 chances at Madrid and Rome. He was beaten badly,and it was humiliating. You are simply clouded by your Fed hate to an extreme degree. You know full well Federer did Nadal a tremendous favor,and gifted him a slam he would have lost otherwise. And if not for Federer Novak Djokovic,out of all the other players who have loads more ability and talent than he does,would have won all 4 slams this year. The fact that Roger stopped that nonsense from happening is worthy of a standing ovation.
     
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  28. TennisFan3

    TennisFan3 Legend

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    Grass is easily the best surface for Nadal to handle Djokovic simply because Nadal moves FAR better on grass than Djokovic does. Also Novak's backhand cross court is NOT as big a weapon on grass as it is on clay/hardcourts (because of the inconsistent bounce on grass and skidding of the surface).

    Djoko's game on clay matches up much better to Nadal. He gave a peak 2008 F.O Nadal good fight too. Did you even see the 2 clay matches they played this year? Novak's level in the Rome 2011 Final was insane. In both Rome and Madrid, Djoko handled Nadal easily. It is more likely that Djokovic would have handled Nadal comfortably at the F.O final, than he did in Wimbledon where Nadal won a set.
     
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  29. Evan77

    Evan77 Banned

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    Who cares? Novak lost a match against one of the best players in the world. Roger can still play very well.

    Is there any top player, nowadays, who won everything everywhere? Fed beat young Novak a lot. He was a dominant player at the time. I respect his win at RG.

    But please.... Novak won 57 matches this year.

    You can NOT compare Djokovic and Federer now. Novak is 24, Fed is 30yo.
     
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  30. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    That's an opinion. Feel free to have it and I'll keep mine, that's fine. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. This thread is about whether current Fed matches up well to Djoko and the answer is: no, he doesn't. Not an opinion, fact. 1-3 means Fed doesn't lead or dominate Djoko in any way + 2 of Fed's losses were in straights.
     
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  31. Gaudio2004

    Gaudio2004 Semi-Pro

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    This article explains it all (the reasons why Federer plays well against Djokovic, with images and video) - and it explains how he matched up so well against Djokovic this year.

    http://backhanddropshot.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/pushing-the-boundaries/

    His backhand is one of the key reasons why he is in the 1% of players Djokovic is hopeless against when Federer is on his game. When his groundstrokes are on and + his serve - Djokovic is helpless.
     
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  32. Evan77

    Evan77 Banned

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    Um, how is Novak helpless against Roger? I'm sorry but this is so stupid. Who is #1? Who def. Roger 3 times this year?

    What did Roger win this year? I think 1 tournament. And where was it? I can't even remember. Please.
     
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  33. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

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    I don't really think Nadal moves better than Djokovic on any surface these days. That Wimbledon loss was so pathetic it was ridiculous. Nadal will never beat Djokovic again is what I have surmised. He has declined too much mentally and physically to do it. I do think Nadal of 2008 would have beaten Djokovic pretty handily though in that final,but that dude is long,long gone.
     
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  34. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    You guys have to quit with that. Nadal was retrieving like a madman in that final, you never know what would have happened.
     
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  35. celoft

    celoft Guest

    Federer and Murray have the game and variety to beat Djokovic.
     
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  36. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    The jist of what veroniquem is saying is true. It does not make sense to say Federer matches up well with Djokovic right now since he won 1 match. Djokovic is 3-1 vs Federer this year and all 3 wins were on their mutual best surface of hard courts, with Federer winning only 1 set. The RG semis was an aberration really. Federer never plays at that level these days, maybe 1% of the time, so is unlikely to happen again.

    Also in general I dont even see how Federer is a bad matchup for Djokovic. Djokovic has won 50% of their matches since he first became a top player in March 2007, despite that until this year Federer was always the better and higher ranked player. If anything that suggest the reverse might be true. It is funny how people say Djokovic is a bad matchup for Nadal and Federer is a bad matchup for Djokovic. Why are their head to heads similar then, and why has Djokovic done better vs Federer in slams than Nadal then. Unless one is basically saying Nadal is the much better player (relative to Federer) and thus ignoring matchups so should expected to do much worse against, LOL!
     
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  37. tennis_fan_182

    tennis_fan_182 Banned

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    Did you watch the Australian Open 2011 final?

    Murray was playing as well as he possibly can, Djokovic looked in poor form (for him) and Murray got hammered.
     
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  38. Smasher08

    Smasher08 Hall of Fame

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    Nadal has a huge psychological advantage over Fed, especially on clay. It allowed him to weather the storm and gradually find the chink in Fed's armour. On any other surface, Rafa would've been toast. On indoor carpet, it would've been a laugher.

    But Nole's game matches up much better against Rafa's because he can counterpunch so effectively, and high loopy shots to a two handed backhand aren't quite as effective.

    Different story again with Fed v Djoker. Their games qctually match up well against each other: both play big money tennis, and it's usually a question of who got out of bed feeling better that morning.

    That Djoker's undefeated streak ended when Fed was on his "worst" surface should be a very interesting piece of trivia in the back of Nole's mind going into New York.

    Also, it's possible that with the ailments Djok and Rafa have, Fed could very well sneak by them to the title.
     
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  39. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Also it is silly to just presume Djokovic would have beaten Nadal in the French Open final.

    First of all beating Nadal in those Masters finals was huge, but it still isnt RG which is the hardest place in the World to beat Nadal (other than maybe Monte Carlo). Nadal in his prime has lost at Rome before (he lost to a washed up Ferrero once) and he definitely can lose to Madrid which is his worst clay court ever pretty much.

    Secondly as veroniquem said Djokovic has been dissapointing at Roland Garros to date. He should have made the final in both 2009 and 2011 and lost in major upsets both time. He also had a real bad loss there last year. He has never made a French Open final which is very surprising given that he has overall been the 2nd best clay courter (outside of Roland Garros) since 2008 now.

    Thirdly of course the simple fact he couldnt even beat Federer a much worse clay courter than Nadal.
     
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  40. celoft

    celoft Guest

    Murray has slam finals fear.
     
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  41. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    If anybody has a theory as to why Djoko does so well in the clay masters but not in RG, I'd be happy to read it because I don't really understand it myself. He's won AO and W and made 2 USO finals. What's up with losing to lesser players like Kohl and Melzer (or Fed ha ha j/k) at RG (despite demonstrating in other events he can play real well on clay)?
     
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  42. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Obviously we'll never know for sure but considering everything-the mental advantage Novak build over Nadal this year and the fact that he even beat him at Wimbledon I'd reckon the majority of non-Nadal fans would have favoured Novak in this hypothetical match.

    Not RG but all those masters wins had the effect of Novak getting into Nadal's head, that's something which Nadal himself and even tio Toni admitted so I can't see how can anyone dispute that to any serious degree.

    Keep in mind that Novak's easiest wins over Nadal this year came on clay and that he even beat him on Wimbledon grass which was arguably the best chance for Nadal to make a stand for several reasons:

    -Novak's worst surface and Nadal's by far 2nd best.

    -Huge pressure on Novak because Wimbledon was always his dream, you could see him starting to get tight in the 3d set.

    -Nadal himself has looked more convincing considering everything at Wimbledon this year than at FO going into the final, heck he played better at Wimbledon this year than last.


    You aren't seriously comparing Kohlschreiber to Fed are you? Even old Fed.

    Nope, not the way tennis works, never has been and never will be. If we go by that logic we could get to all sort of crazy conclusions like for example:

    -Murray and Bellucci are better CC masters players than Nadal, after all they gave Novak a much better fight than Nadal who went down meekly in straights.

    -In 2008 USO Andreev played better than Djokovic and Murray

    -Krajicek is a much better grasscourter than Becker/Goran

    -Goran is a better grasscourter than Becker

    -This year's FO Isner played better CC tennis than Fed

    etc. etc.

    As I said it doesn't work that way, tennis is about match-ups. Most people who realize that understand why old Fed got the win over Novak while Nadal failed in 5 tries or why Nadal beat Fed so easily at FO this year even though Fed played better CC tennis throughout the whole tourney or why Davydenko is 5-1 againt Nadal on HC. etc.
     
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  43. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Dude he was playing Fed, he was solid which is enough to beat the Swiss at FO. Against Novak he would have had to actually play a great match, whether he would have been able to do that we'll never know for sure.
     
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  44. IvanisevicServe

    IvanisevicServe Banned

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    Djokovic hits flat, and Federer generally likes pace...although these days, he gets overpowered by the "swing for the fences" guys like Tsonga and Berdych.

    Djokovic hits hard, but he doesn't hit so hard that Federer is getting pushed off the court.
     
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  45. rcglider

    rcglider New User

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    LOL!! This is Gold. :)
     
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  46. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    He did play well outside of the first set. Federer played fantastically. Im not saying by any means he would have won, but you can't say the reverse either. The match would have had to been played. If Novak lost to Federer, he may have been ripe for Rafa to take as well.
     
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  47. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Nahh, it's wishful thinking by the Nadaltards that Nadal would have stood a chance against Djokovic if he made it to the FO final. Djoker would have destroyed Nadal in straight sets whether he played his best or not. It would all be up to Djoker.
     
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  48. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Like I have already said this matchup theory is wrong in this case. Djokovic is NOT some horrible matchup for Nadal and some great one for Federer, unless you are saying Nadal is so much better than Federer that one should be expected to do much worse vs him and if they dont someting is wrong. Federer and Nadal have virtually idential career records vs Djokovic. Djokovic has beaten Federer more times in slams than Nadal, so in fact Federer is the much easier opponent for him in best of 5 thus far.

    If Djokovic wasnt playing well enough to even take Federer to 5 sets he was never playing well enough to best Nadal in a best of 5 when Nadal is contrary to TW myth not a significantly easier matchup for him than Federer, and in fact a worse one in best of 5, and when Federer is nowhere near the clay courter Nadal is.

    Djokovic has beaten Nadal 5 times this year since overall he is playing the best tennis in the World this year. Djokovic lost to Federer at Roland Garros since as usual he choked and blew it at Roland Garros like he does every year since he last lost to Nadal there. The end.
     
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  49. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    [​IMG]
     
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  50. mistik

    mistik Hall of Fame

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    well people can say what ever they want fed lost to Djoko more than Rafa on GS stage.One win year this year At RG doesnt mean that fed matches up well with Djoko.Sometimes people forget that Rafa did have 16.7 h2h record against Djoko until this year,which was so much better than feds record towards Djoko.As i said before fed lost djoko more on a major stage than Rafa did.Fed matches up well against Djoko is nothing than city myth promoted by poor fed fans.
     
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