Why don't they S&V, chip&charge against Federer?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by fastdunn, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    99.9% of players have nearly 0% chances against Federer from
    baseline anyway.

    Chip&charge off of Federer's 1st serve or something like that.
    Something wildely different. They are not going to beat Federer
    from baseline anyway... Frankly, it's almost mysteric.

    Just happy to be humiliated by bagel scores from baseline ?
     
    #1
  2. Bogie

    Bogie Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,842
    because he has one of if not the best passing shots in the game and hes deadly accurate when he hits them. when hes playing well, either way, your getting humiliated whether your on the baseline, 10 feet behind it, or at the net.
     
    #2
  3. subtleskeptics

    subtleskeptics Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    Messages:
    133
    Much easier said than done...
     
    #3
  4. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    I know it's tough but do they have any other option?
    99.9% of them keep losing to Federer from baseline.

    If I were Henman, I would chip and charge both 1st and 2nd serve
    (like his coach Annacone).

    You get bageled from baseline anyway. Is there anything
    they lose via playing this way ???
     
    #4
  5. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    13,315
    I rather see Roger chip and charge, so he can make it even more easier.He has the game on grass for it but he hasnt doned it as much.
     
    #5
  6. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    Yeah, that's my point. You lose either way, why not trying different thing?
    It's mind-boggling no one at least try it and keep getting beaten like
    a drum, again and again. And they call themselves a professional...
     
    #6
  7. edberg505

    edberg505 Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    6,073

    Being a S&Ver myself, I think it's far more humiliating to be passed time and time again. And like one of the previous posters here said, he can do it with staggering accuracy. You would have to have a Sampras like game to even hope to stay close to Federer S&Ving.
     
    #7
  8. The tennis guy

    The tennis guy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,625
    It's a tough decision. If you abondon your game completely, you pretty much are defeated already. I am not sure about chip and charge off Federer's first serve, it is worth a try on Federer's second serve for someone like Henman. But for other players who are not comfortable at net, the score would be worse if they come in too much. Annacone was a very good volleyer.
     
    #8
  9. ACE of Hearts

    ACE of Hearts G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2005
    Messages:
    13,315
    Hey Edberg, i an also a serve and volley player, i have had passing shots go by me but thats the case when u serve and volley.Henman used to beat Roger but Roger has figured him out.
     
    #9
  10. ATXtennisaddict

    ATXtennisaddict Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,278
    one of my favorite fed shots is the one-hand backhand crosscourt dipper that passes the netplayer. The angle's so sharp and it just dips after crossing the net.
     
    #10
  11. newnuse

    newnuse Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    986
    It makes sense. You can't beat Federer playing his own game, from the baseline. The only chance would be to attack the net and force him to make great passing shots all day long.

    Trying to beat Federer at his own game on grass is not very smart. Force the action, put pressure on Fed to make great shots... the only real chance. Unfortunately, I don't see any great S&V types playing these days.
     
    #11
  12. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    That's what Chang did against Sampras. Chang was getting
    humilated repeatedly after Sampras turned the table in 1994(?) US Open.

    One day, Chang had enough of it, he chip and charged Sampras's
    1st serve at semi-final of Master final (this was indoor carpet !).
    That surprised Sampras. Chang ended up winning that 1 particular
    match(he wouldn't be able to do it consistently) and went on to
    the final of master's cup with Becker that year...
     
    #12
  13. snoflewis

    snoflewis Guest

    happy to be humiliated by bagel scores from baseline? federer bageled henman and he's a S&Ver. he picked apart the guy that said he had a "chance" against federer and was convinced that he could beat him....

    moral of the day: S&V does not work against federer
     
    #13
  14. The tennis guy

    The tennis guy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,625
    I don't remember the match. I doubt Chang could chip and charge on Sampras' first serve unless Sampras didn't serve well.

    Looked at the stat of that match in 1995, Sampras served 50% first serve, won 83% first serve point (25/30), obviously Chang didn't have success on chip and charge Sampras first serve. Sampras only won 42% second serve points. So Chang might have success on chip and charge Sampras' second serve. So the key was Sampras didn't serve well in that match, key #1. The other key stat off that match was Sampras only won 29% return point of Chang serve. So he didn't return well in that match, key #2. Was it because Chang chip and charge? I doubt it.
     
    #14
  15. psp2

    psp2 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,102
    RF moves his service locations very well. it's tough to c&c with kicking serves even if it's 2nd serves. Henman is great at c&c, but he'll get passed by more than win points, imo.
     
    #15
  16. KBalla08

    KBalla08 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2006
    Messages:
    593
    henman played alrite in the 1st set, and he didnt really S&V. for some reason he did in the 2nd and got bageld...
     
    #16
  17. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    It was just one time act. I'm not saying Chang chaip-and-charged
    Sampras' 1st serve all the time in that match. He just tried to do it just couple of times just to disrupt the rythm and pattern.
    I don't think he actually won much points off of it.

    Again, point was there was no point for chang to stay defensive
    and get beaten like a drum by Sampras any more.
    Chang took a "chance" in that 1 particular match and
    he got what he wanted.

    I think everybody except Nadal and maybe Nalbandian
    is in same shoes as Chang's against Sampras at that time...
     
    #17
  18. textbook strokes

    textbook strokes Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    446
    I completely agree... .To be an effective S&V player you need a reliable and hard enough serve, wich Heman lacks. Roddick has a huge service, but lacks the basics at the net. Rog is so damn good :mad: !!. Maybe Wimbledon could convince Patrick Rafter to come back :rolleyes: .
     
    #18
  19. jasonbourne

    jasonbourne Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2005
    Messages:
    1,084
    Location:
    debajo del sol
    Federer is *unbeatable* when his 1st serve is above 50% because he wins around 80% of those points.
    It is worse that he wins over 60% of his 2nd serve points. He can still win without his first serve! That is intimidating.
    With these numbers the competition has a very slim chance of stopping Federer from lifting the championship's trophy.
     
    #19
  20. edberg505

    edberg505 Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    6,073
    The serve doesn't necessarily have to be big; look at Edberg and Rafter. But the serve has to have damn good placement. If I had a choice of a pro's serve I wouldn't pick Roddick. I'd go with somebody like Pim Pim or Karlovic. Heck I would take Ljubicic's serve over Roddick. I think Karlovic has the tools to be a really good S&Ver. The only thing he is lacking is movement.
     
    #20
  21. fastdunn

    fastdunn Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,294
    My point here is that everybody is in a situation that you'll
    have to do something other than baseline game against Federer
    whether you're Edberg or not.

    Everybody's stake is so low compared to Federer's, they just
    have to do "all in" to have any chance against him....
     
    #21
  22. OrangeOne

    OrangeOne Legend

    Joined:
    May 31, 2006
    Messages:
    6,297
    It all depends on what you refer to as big!

    They both had big serves - in terms of work on the ball big. Big, looping kickers that gave them plenty of time to get in to the net, and forced the returner into hitting a weaker return from above shoulder-high.

    The plenty of time thing is really important, anyone can try this even if they don't have a kick serve - just slow down your serve (place it well, as edberg505 says), and see how the extra time benefits you getting into the net. Also means the other player has to generate the pace themself, difficult esp. if they were expecting to return a faster serve by using your pace!
     
    #22
  23. superman1

    superman1 Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    5,243
    You need a perfect serve and perfect volleys. On the points that Henman did get to net, his volleys usually weren't good enough. They sat up and Federer tracked them down. The drop volleys have to be perfect, the volley winners need to be perfect. You can't allow anything to sit up. Then you've got a shot. Much easier said than done, but there have been a number of players in the past who could have done it.
     
    #23
  24. th41291

    th41291 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    193
    that's what gonzalez did to safin today.
     
    #24
  25. araghava

    araghava Rookie

    Joined:
    May 17, 2005
    Messages:
    390
    #25
  26. morten

    morten Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,308
    did you even see the match? Henman hardly approached the net!
     
    #26
  27. shawn1122

    shawn1122 Professional

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    1,131
    Does Mirnyi fit this description?
     
    #27
  28. psp2

    psp2 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2006
    Messages:
    2,102
    perhaps, if and ONLY if max's 1st serve % is high. Fed took care of MM quite easily at the AO '06.
     
    #28
  29. arnz

    arnz Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2005
    Messages:
    1,228
    I agree that people have to do something different against Fed to disrupt his rhythm. I've read somewhere that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result

    Losing is losing, whether you lose the match from the baseline or at net, so why not try something different. People who say it wouldnt work are basically just saying give up to everyone out there. Let them attack and be positive, if they still get beat, then at least they know they gave it their all and werent afraid of moving forward and challenging Fed.
     
    #29

Share This Page