Why Federer vs Safin would be overrated

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by mike danny, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    I know people are saying that peak Safin is a force. he beat peak Fed in a slam an so on. But few things must be taken into consideration:

    1) The h2h is super lopsided. Safin barely won 2 matches and lost 12 others to Federer. I know the guy does not always play at his best but really???? You do not play at your best for 12 matches??? it seems absurd. this is why i think the notion of peak Safin is overrated

    2)Their 2005 match at the AO IMO was a one-off. Safin had to play out of his mind to win. Peakest of peak Safin still had to save a MP to avoid a 4 set loss to Fed. So his performance was more the exception than the rule. I am sure in their other meetings fed would school him again.

    So please people cut it off with peak Safin. I really doubt he would have been much of a rival to fed anyway because their H2H is not even remotely tight. It is as lopsided as any. And i bet Federer would bring his 2005 level into play more often than not. Safin OTOH i doubt would be able to replicate that type of form
     
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  2. TheAnty-vic

    TheAnty-vic Guest

    completely agree.
     
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  3. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Man, I've had enough of peak Safin vs peak _____ threads.
     
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  4. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Peak Safin also destroyed Sampras. So, peak Safin was no joke.
     
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  5. tipsa...don'tlikehim!

    tipsa...don'tlikehim! G.O.A.T.

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    totally agree with OP

    most people are blind regarding Safin, must be his charm, his charisma, something else ? for me there is not a big difference between Safin and a player like Del Potro, great players no doubt but inferior to the GOAT candidates, Federer, Sampras, Nadal etc
     
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  6. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    Peak Safin is overrated. Peak Murray would destroy him anywhere except maybe clay
     
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  7. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    TTMR is an expert on this issue. I'll just leave this post of his right here
     
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  8. chandu612

    chandu612 Guest

    lol...this is heights of confusion.
    Safin is hyped up by Fed fanatics to explain his win against Fed and also to undo weak-era calls.
    Bro read your memo right.
     
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  9. TheAnty-vic

    TheAnty-vic Guest

    Peak Safin even crushes Usain Bolt in 100 mts.!!!

    FACT!
     
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  10. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    You don't beat two GOATs and be overrated.
     
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  11. tipsa...don'tlikehim!

    tipsa...don'tlikehim! G.O.A.T.

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    This post is truly comical.
    Year 2005: the year Safin won the AO, he lost to Robredo 8/6 in the 5th at the french open.

    On clay, He also lost earlier that year to Almagro, Ferrero 2 times and Acasuso.

    Safin has a career record of 128 wins on clay for 83 losses = 63%

    Nadal = 91% of wins on clay

    I don't mind trolling on TTW but sometimes it's getting ridiculous!
     
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  12. tacou

    tacou Legend

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    I've never understood this...isn't a win MORE valid when you have to face a MP. It shows that Fed was playing well enough to win and that Safin was mentally able to overcome the situation. Opposed to the recent USO loss Fed suffered to Robredo...I was real happy for Tommy but come on, you kind of give a pass to Roger on that awful performance. Not so in 05 AO. He had the victory on his racket and couldn't pull it out. That makes it more impressive for me, not less
     
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  13. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    So 'peak Safin' consists of one match in which Federer choked away a match point in a tiebreak attempting a stupid crowd-pleasing dropshot? Just checking.
     
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  14. tipsa...don'tlikehim!

    tipsa...don'tlikehim! G.O.A.T.

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    2 matches actually, this one, and the one he lost in 4 to Johansson in the final, but well I guess he didn't care about that match, it was just a AO final after all, no big deal.
     
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  15. Tenez101

    Tenez101 Hall of Fame

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    Guess Nadal won't mind when he loses to Djokovic again in next year's AO then.
     
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  16. ManFed

    ManFed Rookie

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    You dont beat the GOATs (Sampras and Fed) at Slams and be overrated.
     
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  17. rockandroll

    rockandroll Banned

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    Well lots of people have beaten 2 GOATs. Krajicek has beaten Sampras and Agassi many times both. Murray has beaten Federer and Nadal so many times (even if not that often in slams, still more than Safin beat Sampras and Federer combined). Nobody talks about them as gods because of it.

    Safin had a great peak level of play (which you could say about many even much less accomplished players like Rios, LeConte, and Korda) but those who promote him as some godly figure do overrate him.
     
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  18. rockandroll

    rockandroll Banned

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    I think there are some other instances:

    2000 U.S Open final
    2002 Paris Indoors final
    2002 Hamburg quarters
     
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  19. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    If Safin would have had a true consistent peak/Prime than his matches with Fed would have been some greats much like the AO in 2005 but you RARELY so a focused Safin

    Safin (if focused) should have been a guy, like Nalbandian who took their piece of the pie from Fed back in 2004-2007 but there was always some reason why they were off the radar. They were contemporaries of Fed but being that BOTH were MIA, that opened the field for Federer to have it far more easier


    Instead baby Nadal had to step up for Fed's SHOULD BE contemporaries during that time (even though Nadal had yet to come into his own and mature as more of an all surface player).

    But it shouldn't have been Nadal during that time period (off of clay), Nalbandian and Safin were the most talented players on tour during that time outside of Roger.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2013
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  20. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    Well IMO HC would be the only place Safin would even be competitive vs Fed.

    On grass despite Safin taking a set at Halle, Fed should have won that one in straights. Safin got lucky in the breaker. In the 3rd set order was restored. But their biggest match on grass was W 2008 SF. Safin was in good form coming into that one, having upsetted Djokovic in the 2nd round and going all the way to meet Fed. And what happened? Safin in his best form ever on grass got schooled by Federer. So on grass no way would Safin have a chance.

    On clay, their biggest match was Hamburg 2002 F. Fed completely trashed Safin. And back then Safin had more experience, winning a slam, masters and being no.1 for a short period of time., while Fed was not even a masters champion, was not yet no.1 and did not even reach a slam semi. He was far from being the player he was about to become, especially on clay. Yet he still detroyed Safin. Fed of 2005-2011 on clay would beat Safin everytime on clay IMO.

    Fed would have a big edge on clay and grass prime for prime. In their biggest matches on those surfaces, Fed routined Safin. That's all i need to know in order to judge their match-ups prime for prime on these 2 surf.
     
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  21. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    It happens. Like Wawrinka not winning a set vs Rafa, then in their only GS final, he won. So, people will be saying peak Waw owns peak Rafa.

    I sort of agree with you, this peak thing is a fallacy. Has Delpo even won a masters?
     
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  22. Lavs

    Lavs Professional

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    Peak Sifin also took Agassi, peak Roddick and mature Sampras.
    No way Safin overrated, just head case and injuries.
    And don't forget who owns one of the best 2H backhand ever (I know, I know there is one more argentinian in that matter though :))
     
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  23. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree. I give Safin his due. But to suggest he is greater than Roddick, Hewitt or Murray, is a bit of a stretch.

    Yeah Safin had great peak two tournaments. But his consistency level in his peak years wasn't so great. So it evens out.
     
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  24. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Safin took down Agassi, Sampras, Federer, Kuerten, Hewitt, Roddick, Ferrero, Nalbandian, Djokovic in Slams and often more than once. He was no joke.
     
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  25. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Who is saying he was a joke?

    Hewitt, Roddick, Murray also took down amazing players at majors. I don't see why Safin should be rated above them.
     
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  26. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    Murray I agree, Hewitt yes but to a far lesser degree. Roddick as good as he was he didn't have that many huge wins in Slams - he beat Ferrero/Nalbandian at the US Open in 2003, Hewitt twice (but already post prime), Djokovic, Nadal (aged 18 ) but his biggest Slam win was probably Murray at Wimbledon.
     
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  27. jg153040

    jg153040 G.O.A.T.

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    Didn't Roddick also beat Nole at AO 09 when Nole was the defending champ? This is impressive.
    And he almost beat Fed W 09.

    Hewitt was past his prime? I thought Hewitt and Roddick were the same generation.

    I don't remember, but did Roddick ever beat Agassi or Pete at a major?
     
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  28. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    No, I mentioned every big scalp Roddick had in majors throughout his career. His biggest wins were definitely Djokovic at the AO and Murray at Wimbledon, ironically both near the end of his prime tennis.

    Hewitt was in the same generation as Roddick but he peaked earlier, you could say he was already in his prime years as early as 2000 when Roddick was still a toddler. By the end of 2005 Hewitt as a top player was done. Roddick beat him twice in Slams - at the US in 2006 and at Wimbledon in 2009 (the second win wasn't easy, Hewitt was having a great run in that tournament).

    Safin as inconsistent as he was (even during 2000-2005 aka the only years he mattered) had big wins in just about every Slam where he reached at least the quarters.

    1998 FO - beat Agassi and Kuerten (the defending champion)
    1999 AO - beat Kuerten
    2000 US - demolished Ferrero, owned an in-form Sampras in the final
    2002 AO - beat Sampras
    2004 AO - epic tournament when he took down peak Roddick and still a very tough to beat Agassi
    2005 AO - beat peak Federer in a HC Slam, the only time Fed lost in a non-clay Slam in 2004-2007, then took down Hewitt in the final (he also beat Djokovic in the 1st round but he was a baby)
    2005 FO - Ferrero
    2006 US - Nalbandian
    2008 Wimbledon - Djokovic
     
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  29. tipsa...don'tlikehim!

    tipsa...don'tlikehim! G.O.A.T.

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    Like Tsonga got wins over Federer and Djokovic in grand slams
    Berdych 2 wins over Federer
    etc etc
    exception is Safin got 2 grand slams wins, but won in a weak era
     
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  30. Blocker

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    He beat old man Sampras not fully primed Sampras. Fully primed Sampras would have bent fully primed Safin over and ploughed him. Hewitt also beat old man Sampras as did Federer. The only two men to give prime Sampras trouble on a consistent basis was Krajicek and Stich, and even then, Sampras and K were 1-1 in slams and it was Sampras who straight setted Stich at Wimbledon when Stich was defending champion.
     
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  31. TeamOB

    TeamOB Professional

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    Yes, Safin is overrated. I've heard people say he could have won 15+ slams if he had been "focused". But he is definitely no mug. I think Safin had the most complete game of the era bar Federer. Safin had one of the best serves, one of the best FHs, the best BH, capable volleys and very respectable movement. He had the whole package. Put Safin in an injury-free body and give him Hewitt's motivation and he would be at least an 8-time slam champ. When on form, Safin could hang with anyone. Watch Wimbledon 2008. An old, washed-up, injury-ridden Safin made Nole look stupid.
     
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  32. ctoth666

    ctoth666 Professional

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    What is peak Safin's power level? Does anyone know?

    My readings indicate that it is above peak Goku.
     
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  33. tacou

    tacou Legend

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    I'm unsure of what this thread is referring to? I know Safin has been hyped on these boards, but the h2h with Fed is what it is.

    The 2005 match was beautiful baseline tennis. There was no "rivalry" outside that match, though.
     
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  34. Hollywood401k

    Hollywood401k Semi-Pro

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    Off topic, but I never saw the Djokovic-Safin match at Wimbledon so I decided to find it on youtube. Within 5 minutes JMac says Djokovic has a better serve than Federer. This is 2008.

    Priceless.

    Edit: And he says Safin's serve is 'above average.' I'm sure this must also be considered historical fact.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
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  35. Blocker

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    I'll tell you what this match was. This match was all about a player who had the game to beat Federer finally standing up to Federer and taking him on. For 3 years, Federer was never pushed outside the FO. Everyone thought he was unbeatable, talk of 30 plus slams to Federer, and finally, the only player who had it in him to beat Federer actually did. Does not make him GOAT like because he did not beat a GOAT. He beat a very very very good player, but GOAT he is not.
     
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  36. MTF07

    MTF07 Semi-Pro

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    LMAOOO

    If someone could compile a video of all the stupid hyperbolic things Mac has said over just the last 10 years, it would be a 3 hour movie probably.
     
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  37. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Obviously. At the end of his career, Safin said he hated playing Federer and that out of all the great players he had played in his career, Federer made him feel the most uncomfortable.

    An interviewer immediately mentioned Santoro to which Marat replied something along the lines of "Yeah, but I have beaten him the last four times". :lol: Funny thing is, Safin did not win his last 4 against Fabrice. He won 2 of the last 4 meetings against Santoro.
     
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  38. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    A match which he could have easily lost in 4. Nice try.

    So because he lost 1 match, in which he had MP Fed is not a GOAT? Cool argument bro....

    Had he lost in straight you would have had a point. But he was 1 point away from winning in 4. Safin was the one who had to bring his best to beat Federer more often than the other way around.

    The H2H is 10-2 Federer. 1 match in which he had MP and lost is not evidence Fed is not a GOAT.
     
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  39. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    Djokovic is a very very very good player. Federer is way more than that. Even is he is not GOAT he is one of them.

    Many people think this way that he is one of the greatest of all time
     
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  40. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Seriously? Do you actually believe this? Safin would completely dominate him at AO, would wipe the floor with him at FO, and would win the majority of US Open encounters; The only surface Murray is better than Safin on is grass. However Safin was never fully fit at Wimbledon, and his career was over pretty much in 2005.






    Just think, Safin, has won as many majors as Murray in a very injury filled career whilst keeping in mind Safin also played tougher opponents than Murray for his slams an has a lot more big wins under his belt in the majors. Murray can't even beat Berdych at FO let alone Kuerten or Agassi. Murray couldn't even win a set from a past prime Federer at AO 2010 and only just managed to beat old man Federer at AO 2013 let alone actually take down Federer in 2005. No way does Murray beat the crap out of Sampras like Safin did. No, Murray does not have a better peak than Safin, otherwise, he would have scored a lot more big wins. What is also impressive is that Safin had like 3.5 years of healthy tennis whilst Murray has had a pretty injury free career. (Safin couldn't even make it on to the court at times).
     
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  41. noball

    noball Banned

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    In Fed's era, Safin had his 1 day in the sun against Fed at AO,not to mention he got seriously lucky too but that's it. The rivalry that should've been is Fed - Nalbandian. Marat was streaky, no way he was gonna be Fed's main stumbling block in every slam from 04-09. Nalbandian had a great game but messed up big time at USO 03. That and fat Dave couldn't keep his hands off them donuts. :lol:
     
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  42. Anaconda

    Anaconda Hall of Fame

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    Right, so Safin with one career threatening injury in the middle of what could have been considered his better days and a career ending injury in 2005 was not due a little luck?




    Yet Nalbandian gets a free pass because he was too busy eating junk food??





    Love the double standards in this place, I really hope people don't take on board your logic. Safin is by far the better player. Nalbandian doesn't even have a better backhand than Safin, think of that!
     
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  43. Mainad

    Mainad G.O.A.T.

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    Listen, we all understand and acknowledge that Safin was a great player but don't you think you just might be going overboard with all the woulda, coulda, shouldas. You can't keep excusing all Safin's losses as being down to poor health and bad fitness and predicting all the Slams and matches he would have won if only he had been the picture of absolute health throughout his career. It's the same type of well-worn argument that the Nadal, Federer and Serena fans all trot out when their idol loses. They were injured. They could never lose when healthy etc. If you want to believe that Safin would win every single one of his encounters with Murray while healthy then go ahead if it makes you happy. However I shouldn't have to remind you that Murray has beaten all the top players at the Slams at some point or other and I don't at all see it as beyond the realms of possibility that he could outplay a healthy Safin at any of the Slams bar the FO (probably).

    It's somewhat ironic that you point to Murray's 'injury-free career' when he is currently in the midst of struggling to get back to form after surgery for a chronic bad back. But I don't suppose you would ever entertain the notion that Murray may not always have been in the best of health during some of those losses you like to trot out with such glee or is the injury excuse only allowed for guys like Safin, guys you happen to idolise?

    As for Safin's injuries, yes,he suffered from a lot of them as did many other players eg. Hewitt. But Safin led a pretty wild lifestyle full of parties and excessive behaviour (booze, women, maybe drugs too but I won't speculate too much on that). He got into fights and once turned up at a match with a huge shiner apparently as a result of a fistfight in downtown Moscow (or so he claimed). I'm guessing from all this that he probably didn't devote too much of his time to training and keeping fit and that consequently many of his injuries were probably down to his own behaviour and failure to take proper care of himself. So maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be shedding too many tears on his various physical misfortunes?
     
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  44. Anaconda

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    Uh, I never ever said Safin would win every encounter with Murray. Did I? However, to begrudge Safin another slam or two at the least without injuries is pretty harsh as he has proved he could beat the best on a consistent basis.




    Has Murray beaten the best in the slams? Well, essentially yes. Just like Robredo has beaten the best slam player ever, but like Murray, he never beat the likes of Federer or Nadal at their peaks on their best surfaces. Safin has beaten the best, at their best, on surfaces they are very capable on. Yes, Murray has beaten Djokovic at Wimbledon fair and square, in fact this was his most impressive slam result. The fact that Safin's win over Djokovic meant hardly anything to his career (as a whole, it was not one of his defining moments) pretty much shows you how many more big scalps Safin had in his career.




    Uh, I make no excuses for Safin by the way, however not being able to step on court is a valid reason for not doing well. How the hell can Safin win games in 2003 when he can't even make it on court, or 2004 when he was playing in severe pain, I'm not even going to talk about 2005 when it looked like he was mentally focused for the first time then ruins his leg. These are not merely excuses I am submitting here...Just facts.








    Yes, I am aware of Murray's injury, at 26 years old. He's had nearly 10 years of healthy tennis. By 24/25, Safin was pretty much dead and buried.....For good, and that's not even counting the wrist in 2003 or the blisters he sustained in 2004. Think of that.


    There is a little difference between not being able to step onto court (getting back to 2003), and not being in perfect health. Murray was still able to perform to a high level, whilst anyone who watched tennis from mid 2005 onwards would be able to understand that Safin's injury in 2005 completely ruined him - the rankings spoke for themselves. When healthy and focused he was taking down Federer and Hewitt in their best years at AO then suddenly in 2006 the guy finds himself amongst journeymen and in 2007 attempted to climb a mountain because he couldn't be bothered to practice anymore. Wonder why that was?





    Yes but Hewitt was never ever going to beat Federer, and certainly wasn't going to compete with Nadal, Djokovic (and perhaps Murray if they played). Safin would have been fine with playing those guys (yes, he would lose matches to them but he would have his fair share of wins too). Safin just had more game than Hewitt.





    Ok, so in your words, Safin partied, was injury prone, didn't care about tennis yet won 2 slams? Maybe you should berate the guy who claimed Murray had a better peak than Safin instead of me. Shouldn't Murray who trains hard in pretty much an injury free, party free career have more slams than Safin if he is just a better player?











    BTW, that last part wasn't true. Safin worked his *** off in the off-seasons, especially in 2004/2005, I think it was only after his knee injury in 2005 he lost motivation due to knowing he was not (and never going to be) the player who won the AO that year.
     
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  45. Egoista

    Egoista Professional

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    safin one hit wonder
     
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  46. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    The only surface Safin would be competitive on vs Federer would be HC. We already know what happened on the biggest matches on clay (Hamburg 2002) and grass (W 2008 )
     
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  47. Anaconda

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    The guy supposedly partied, took drugs, slaked off training and won 2 slams. According to the good idiots at TW, now it seems winning 2 slams is being a one hit wonder.........
     
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  48. Anaconda

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    You forgot carpet, which was used at that time. By the way Safin playing in total agony still nearly beat Federer in 2005 at Halle.......On grass. Wimbledon 2008? Really? You think Federer's confidence was at an all time low because he made a SF and F at the previous slams?? Safin won like a handful of matches prior to that tournament and had zero confidence at that tournament (so much so he booked a plane home before his match with Djokovic).
     
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  49. Vcore89

    Vcore89 Hall of Fame

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    Let's not talk about peak for peak then or total titles won. Safin just like Federer is a beauty to watch, their strokes are genius. I would've preferred Safin met Federer more at the finals (that wasn't the case), and if they did, viewership would've skyrocketed.
     
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  50. mike danny

    mike danny Legend

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    W 2008 was Safin's best W of his career. He upseted the then world no.3 Djokovic and went on to reach the semis without playing a 5 setter at all. That was definetely his best form on grass. And in the semis Fed routined him. On grass it is Fed without a shadow of a doubt. At Halle Safin got lucky in the breaker. In the decisive set order was restored.

    And at Hamburg you gotta admit. Safin was the one with the more experience at that time. He had everything. Slam, no.1, masters and Masters cup qualification. Federer had neither of those. Yet he still destroyed Safin while being far from the player he would become 2 years later.
     
    #50

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