Why hasn't this player been DQ-ed?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by iankogan, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    #1
  2. goober

    goober Legend

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    DQ'ed from what?

    He is a self rated 3.5 playing in a 4.0 league. His record there obviously didn't get 3 strikes for the 4.0 level. He looks like he is playing the right level actually.

    You can't be DQ'ed from regular tournaments as a self rate.

    The only thing I could see him being DQ'ed from is his 7.5 mixed. He is 3-2 there and from what I understand mixed doesn't count toward your rating unless your are playing mixed exclusive.

    He will likely get bumped at the end of the year, but there is nothing that jumps out and says obvious DQ for the leagues he is in.
     
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  3. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    There is a computer model that the USTA uses to determine NTRP ratings. If this guy is 3.5 or under on the scale then it will generate a 3.5 rating. Once his computer generated rating is higher he will be bumped up to 4.0.

    For all we know this guy may have originally self rated as a 3.0 which set the bar low (which is an inherent problem with self rating in general). If he did this, his computer rating will keep increasing, but could still be under the 3.5 threshold. Also, you would need to look at the 4.0 guys he has been playing in leagues. Some of them might be 3.5 rated players playing up as well, which wouldn't necessarily increase his computer rating per se.

    Also, in order to get DQ'd you need to have 3 strikes, in his case meaning that his NTRP computer rating must exceed 3.5 for 3 matches. For all we know he may currently have 2 strikes against him.

    I guess my main point is that the ratings will generally work themselves out, but sometimes it takes a while for that to happen. The exception to this rule would be if the player is purposely tanking games/sets.
     
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  4. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    This is a good point also.
     
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  5. goober

    goober Legend

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    Actually no- it clearly states he self rated 3.5 on 3/28/10.
     
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  6. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    Ok, didn't catch that. Well, being that it is a recent self rate, I don't see any problems with it. He may have self rated low, but none of us know his situation. Maybe he was coming back from injury or hadn't played in years and didn't know what he should rate himself as. He won't get DQ'd from 4.0's and if he keeps winning matches at that level, most likely he will be bumped up at the end of this season.
     
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  7. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    Point taken, I did not word my question correctly. Let me restate it: how is it possible that this player did not receive his 3 strikes yet (and consequently got bumped to 4.0 rating), after having played 15 singles matches against bona-fide 4.0 players (and they are 'legit' 4.0 players, I checked), winning 7 of these matches, and having very close scores in all the matches he lost?

    Yes, he had indeed played the right level in the 4.0 league. Basically, I'm wondering why it is taking so long for the DNTRP model to recognize that?

    Another aspect is ethical. I feel that entering a 3.5 tourney after playing as a competitive 4.0 all season constitutes cheating, or at least poor sportsmanship - which was in this case facilitated by the DNTRP model.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
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  8. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    I still do not follow. How he could receive 3 strikes if he's playing in a 4.0 league? It would mean he'd be DQ'd from the 4.0 league which wouldn't make any sense given that he's had competitive matches at that level.

    The ethical argument makes a little more sense. He probably knows he can play 3.5 tournaments and he won't get DQ'd. However, if he's having competitive matches at 4.0, then you could still make the case that he's a strong 3.5. I've played in 5.0 leagues in the past (while rated 4.5) and am usually competitive. At the same time, at 4.5 I would win the majority of my matches, but most of them were close unless I was playing a weak 4.5, or 4.0 playing up a level.
     
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  9. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    I don't think that is the question. The question is "why didn't he get DQ'd from 3.5 based on his 4.0 results?" You don't actually have to play at the 3.5 level to get DQ'd (bumped really) to 4.0 mid-season if you are a self-rate only playing 4.0. It wouldn't affecrt any of his 4.0 results, it would just prevent him from doing things like entering a tournament as a 3.5.
     
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  10. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    That probably means that I'm still not quite finding my way with words :) One more try, without all the unfortunate terminology ("DQ'd", "strikes", etc.): why, after 15 competitive 4.0 matches, is this guy still a 3.5? Why has he not been 'officially' bumped to 4.0? Such adjustments are made to self-rated players mid-year, correct?

    Yes and you can also make the case that he's a weak 4.5 :)

    The point I'm trying to make:
    This player self-rated as a 3.5 which objectively was too low, though he probably 'under-rated' himself without any intent to cheat. Somehow he realized right away that 4.0 was his proper rating, and played leagues at that level all year with good success, kudos. Then the league season comes to a close and the biggest state tourney of the year rolls around. Now the guy remembers that he's 'officially' a 3.5, and even though he did not play one 3.5 match all year he enters the tourney at that level. Note that after playing all year at 4.0 he did not enter the 4.0 draw. He proceeds to win the title. Is this cheating? Officially, no, it was his right to enter as a 3.5. But he could only do so because the system was (is) slow to realize what any person can tell at a glance of his record: this player does not belong to 3.5, he is a 4.0. I don't blame the guy, I blame the system for enabling bad sportsmanship :)
     
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  11. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    Thanks kyle, you presented my point more clearly than I ever could.
     
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  12. Sakkijarvi

    Sakkijarvi Semi-Pro

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    I guess it's just me but...

    ...it seems kind of creepy to have 'no dog' but be cyberstalking some stranger over something that is none of your business...the saying stupid **** like this "Another aspect is ethical. I feel that entering a 3.5 tourney after playing as a competitive 4.0 all season constitutes cheating, or at least poor sportsmanship" about an alleged 'stranger'. Perhaps this is not a "stranger' to you after all?

    Very....creepy....
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
    #12
  13. athiker

    athiker Hall of Fame

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    Must have been quite the surprise for John Lewin and Cleo Lucas when they met up with Mr. Swanson. Take a glance at their previous records...especially Lucas...a lot of bread-sticks and a few bagels in his record.
     
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  14. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    Well perhaps not a stranger but you'll never know, will you? Not unless you take my word that I never met the guy, or heard of him before... which you are likely not inclined to do. Feel free to make a conjecture that I'm in fact Ian Todd, the guy who lost to Mr. Swanson in the final, and thus the aggrieved party... LOL.

    One more time, for the record: while I think it is unethical for a proven 4.0 player to play in a 3.5 draw of a tournament under the ruse of self-rating, I have no beef with the guy. I do question the system which allows such a ruse to stand in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2010
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  15. polski

    polski Semi-Pro

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    I interpret him as a good 3.5 player that borderline could be a 4.0, but it isn't a slam dunk. I understand where you are coming from as he has a lot of 4.0 wins. However, he has several losses and is slightly over .500 at the 4.0 level.

    On another note, I'd be confident if I got this guy into a tiebreaker. Only 1 win and 6 losses in match tiebreaks. Then he plays tournaments and does well when third sets are played out. He's a grinder, not a point player.
     
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  16. Panic492

    Panic492 Rookie

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    In the 3.5 tournament he was taken to 3 sets twice. Many of his 3.5 tournamnet matches were competetive-not all.
     
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  17. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    Can he get DQ'd from 3.5 if he's not playing in a USTA 3.5 league? Or are you asking if he could get DQ'd from USTA 3.5 tournaments based on his 4.0 league play?

    DQ'd and bumped are two different things here. Bumping would occur after the season, DQ'd would mean he's no longer eligible to play in 3.5 tournaments he's currently entering. I've never heard of anyone getting DQ'd from a tournament based on their USTA league results.
     
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  18. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The answer to this is covered on Page 13 of the attached FAQ:

    http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/QAInterpretationsREORG.pdf

    So, the self-rate who generated 3 strikes playing up should be bumped mid season, although technically it is not considered a "DQ" since there are no league matches at the lower level. In this case, I don't see how that player could have NOT generated 3 strikes at the 3.5 level warranting a bump ("appeal to move up" or whatever...) to 4.0. Seems like someone goofed here.
     
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  19. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    Thanks for clarifying. I did not realize that was the case.

    However, I'm still not sure you can immediately infer that somebody goofed up, unless you work for the USTA and are privy to computer model which determines NTRP ratings.
     
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  20. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    JRB, thanks for digging up that info! I didn't know for sure that the 'bump' could occur mid-season; from what you posted it appears that it could. And I agree that it should have in this case. The fact that it didn't would seem to indicate that either a) 'someone goofed' as you put it (thought is there someone in a position to goof?!) or b) the DNTRP algorithm itself is seriously flawed or c) the algorithm may be OK but the system 'trigger' to initiate the 'bump-up' did not fire as it should have.
     
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  21. Bedrock

    Bedrock Semi-Pro

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    iankogan - exactly. This is very good question. Why ???
     
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  22. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. Seriously, I don't think it's clear cut that the guy should have received 3 strikes from the 3.5 level and DQ'd mid season. More likely, he may have received 1 or 2 strikes during the summer and is on the bubble and will get bumped to 4.0 for this next winter season.

    Working a lot with statistics in my job, I also know that with any model you need to have sufficient sample size before coming to a conclusion. After looking some more at the scores, most of the 4.0 guys this guy has beaten are average to below average 4.0 players, and he had close scores against them. It wasn't like he was blowing them out. Also, did you look at his opponents to see how strong their opponents were? I guess what I'm saying is that it is easy to come to subjective conclusions based on a few data points, but the model takes into account much more than that.

    The system is not perfect, as you never can create a perfect model. I was bumped up to a 5.0 and I know some guys who are still rated 4.5 who could beat me regularly. But to saw the model is flawed, the trigger is not working, or someone dropped the ball is a bit of a reach, IMO.
     
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  23. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    But to say the model is flawed, the trigger is not working, or someone dropped the ball is a bit of a reach, IMO.
     
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  24. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    Good points, I don't disagree with you, why don't we agree to agree :) I expect that at the end of the year the system will most likely bump this player up to 4.0. I wish he would not play any more matches this year, to keep our experiment pristine :) If that happens and he ends up being bumped to 4.0, one could argue that the system had all the data points necessary to bump him up earlier, no? If anything, he'd likely lowered his DNTRP with that 3.5 tourney run at the end of the season, compared to what it was prior to him playing that tourney...
     
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  25. jhick

    jhick Semi-Pro

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    No that is not how the rating system works. It just means that his rating at the end of the season is above 3.5. In order to get bumped (or DQ'd) mid season, he would need to have played 3 matches where his rating exceeded 3.5. There are lots of players who get bumped up (or down) at the end of a season. Getting DQ'd does not occur nearly as often.
     
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  26. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    It is more than that...

    To get bumped to 4.0 at the end of the season he would simply need a rating above 3.50. To earn a strike, he would need a dynamic rating above (something like) 3.70. The threshold for strikes is almost halfway into the next level - so if he is beating weak 4.0s, he may not be generating strikes at all.
     
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  27. amarone

    amarone Semi-Pro

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    This is correct, except that the threshold level for generating a strike is 3.80. Or, at least, it was 18 months ago when I attended a meeting in which we were told the threshold for each level.

    The others were: 2.5 DQ level = 3.0; 3.0 DQ level = 3.3; 4.0 DQ level = 4.2. They did not tell us 4.5+
     
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  28. iankogan

    iankogan Rookie

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    OP here... I appreciate the info, thanks to all who contributed to the discussion!
     
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  29. ronray43

    ronray43 New User

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    This is actually pretty typical in Colorado. If you check out the CTA Twilight League finals for mens 3.5, you'll find that three of the four singles players who played in the finals had either S or T ratings. The guy who won the Pinery 3.5 tournament was self rated and got DQ'd later on during the adult season. Also, lots of self rated folks in the mixed leagues since DNTRP doesn't come into play and you can't get DQ'd (you can't get dynamically DQ'd in CTA twilight either). This is why the Seniors league is great--everyone's been playing for years, and there are very few self rated players.
     
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