Why is a kick serve so easy for some people and so hard for others

[Curious]

The toss not being low enough is the reason you are getting slice but its not the cause of the problem, the problem is you can't hit the ball lower because your toss is too much to the right.

See compared to Thiem and Roger, and even if you imagine yourself at the location where you toss the ball, can you imagine yourself getting the ball lower and having the racquet at such a sideways angle with this toss? Its not possible, unless ur arm is WAY out right in a uncomfortable position.

That was the second thing I’ve also noticed believe it or not. Yes, you’re spot on.

 

[sredna42]

I don't think its the same, I think slicing it more up is more of a topspin slice, a very high topspin serve what bounces slightly higher but not a true kick that explodes to the right after the bounce.

which is why I said

Worry about the details later.

Once you have an image of what you are doing, a feeling that is simple to grasp, the rest flows in like water later on.

 

[Curious]

This is a good one. Nice and short. No nonsense.

 

[FiReFTW]

This is a good one. Nice and short. No nonsense.

True, but easier said than done (at least consistently, specially in match pressure )

 

[Curious]

True, but easier said than done (at least consistently, specially in match pressure )

You really need healthy strong knees to be able to lean back like that without arching your back. This is also related to me not tossing the ball more to the left.

 

[PKorda]

By "wicked kick" are you referring to a Twist serve (aka American twist)? This is the type of kick serve that has a dramatic directional change when it bounces.

Many people can hit a kick serve that bounces high but does not exhibit much of a directional change when it bounces. To get the ball to kick up, it must approach the court at a steep angle. There are two ways to accomplish this.

One way is to hit a high-arcing serve. Some call this the lob kick. For this serve, the ball hits the court, with decent (vertical) speed, at a steep angle.

Another way to achieve a high bounce is to hit a topspin or topspin-slice serve with enough topspin to cause the ball to dive into the court at a steep angle. (These serves can have a moderate speed but usually need a high spin-to-speed ratio).

In order to achieve the dramatic directional change, seen on the Twist serve, a topspin-slice serve be hit with a very high spin rate. A very high RPM ball will acquire spiral spin as it flies through the air. If the ball has a generous amount of spiral spin when it bounces, a traumatic directional change will occur.

If you are not getting much directional change on your kick serves, you are not brushing fast enough. You need to achieve that distinctive / telltale fast-brush sound when you contact the ball. In order to do this, you need to contact the ball a few inches lower than you normally would. And then brush up very quickly.

If you come across this guy or someone else with a good twist action on their kick serve, closely listen to the sound of the ball-string interaction. If you can't get that sound, you will not get the twist action on your kick serves.

To answer your question it did have a dramatic change of direction, this was really only on the ad side

 

[Dragy]

How happens a thread started as some discussion ends up picking apart @Curious

You really need healthy strong knees to be able to lean back like that without arching your back. This is also related to me not tossing the ball more to the left.

I have a tip for you which might help with this. When going for kick serve, you don't need to swing/hit into the ball. You can kind of drive your hand on a parallel "lane", while the racquet head "hooks" the ball at the early stage of over-the-top pivot. That approach wins you several degrees of tilt - you can contact the ball lower and farther to the left than for a more driving serve, without much different prep and body launch direction:

 

[Curious]

How happens a thread started as some discussion ends up picking apart @Curious

I have a tip for you which might help with this. When going for kick serve, you don't need to swing/hit into the ball. You can kind of drive your hand on a parallel "lane", while the racquet head "hooks" the ball at the early stage of over-the-top pivot. That approach wins you several degrees of tilt - you can contact the ball lower and farther to the left than for a more driving serve, without much different prep and body launch direction:

Sorry I didn’t get it. What’s the tip?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

To answer your question it did have a dramatic change of direction, this was really only on the ad side

Right-handers typically find it easier and more effective to hit kick serves, esp Twist serves, on the Ad side.

Take a look at most kick /twist serve how-to videos. Almost always demonstrated on the Ad side. However, RF has hit some incredible twist kicks on the Deuce side.

 

[Dragy]

Sorry I didn’t get it. What’s the tip?

A tip relates to the idea that you need more tilt/arc. You don't. You need swing more left to right initially so that your hand goes more to side, not that close to under the ball. And you need the toss more to the left.

You have similar body position to Novak or Roger, but wrong swing direction and ball position (and they hit more to the left of camera view, why you flatten it out forward towards the wall):

 

[Curious]

A tip relates to the idea that you need more tilt/arc. You don't. You need swing more left to right initially so that your hand goes more to side, not that close to under the ball. And you need the toss more to the left.

You have similar body position to Novak or Roger, but wrong swing direction and ball position (and they hit more to the left of camera view, why you flatten it out forward towards the wall):

Sure, I know that. Mostly because of my knee injury. When I toss more to the left my knees hurt more.

 

[Dragy]

Sorry I didn’t get it. What’s the tip?

Here's a great angle, and my second tip: pull as green arrow shows to spin the ball, don't push as red arrow shows. Arm should be straight by the moment, but racquet still at (almost) 90 deg to forearm (loose grip at thumb area).

 

[Dragy]

Sure, I know that. Mostly because of my knee injury. When I toss more to the left my knees hurt more.

How toss is related to knee? You don't need to tilt more, at least 8 more inches left compared to flattish serve require no change in body position.

 

[Curious]

How toss is related to knee? You don't need to tilt more, at least 8 more inches left compared to flattish serve require no change in body position.

With the toss to the left you need to lean back more as well and ideally it should happen at the knees rather than arching the lower back.

 

[Curious]

 

[Chas Tennis]

A tip relates to the idea that you need more tilt/arc. You don't. You need swing more left to right initially so that your hand goes more to side, not that close to under the ball. And you need the toss more to the left.

You have similar body position to Novak or Roger, but wrong swing direction and ball position (and they hit more to the left of camera view, why you flatten it out forward towards the wall):

Here is an illustration from an overhead camera view for Frank Salazar's serve. 1) The center of the racket head's path can be seen for flat, slice and kick serves as well as 2) the rotation of the racket from ISR. 3) The chest facing more to the side can be seen for the kick serve. 4) Ball impact over the head. 5) It can be seen that the racket is more tilted to the horizontal for the kick by the racket's length. See FYB overhead videos also on Anatoly Antipin's Youtube collection. Toly composite pictures (these are very useful because several positions are shown and you have a hard time remembering positions once they are not in sight.)

I wish that we had many more of these Toly composite overhead pictures for current servers. A picture like this shows how inaccurate and misleading word descriptions of strokes often are.

To show this useful picture right click on it and use "Copy image address". (you may have to simply left click on the picture first) To post in a reply place cursor in reply where you want the picture and click on the picture icon (with mountains & moon above) in the reply box. Paste the "image address" into the box that appears. You can use "Preview" to have a look at your post before doing "Save" to post it.

 

[Dragy]

With the toss to the left you need to lean back more as well and ideally it should happen at the knees rather than arching the lower back.

Try to get my thought my friend) look at the pic again:

You could have the ball several inches to the left of the red line without changing anything in your preparation, arc/tilt, etc. All you'd need is to stay sideways and swing more along the baseline initially and past the ball "hooking" it with stringbed, instead of into the ball turning away at the last moment.

 

[Dragy]

Here is an illustration from an overhead camera view for Frank Salazar's serve. The center of the racket head's path can be seen for flat, slice and kick serves as well as the rotation of the racket from ISR. The chest more to the side can be seen for the kick serve. Ball impact over the head. It can be seen that the racket is more tilted to the horizontal for the kick by the racket's length. See FYB overhead videos also on Anatoly Antipin's Youtube collection. Toly composite pictures (these are very useful because several positions are shown and you have a hard time remembering positions once they are not in sight.)

I wish that we had many more of these for current servers.

Just what I'm talking about, see how hand and racquet move more across and way more wide from each other by contact for kick serve:

 

[Dragy]

So @Curious when you get the ball to the blue location without changing your body posture, you are authorized to further complain about not getting more kick because of your knees!

 

[Chas Tennis]

@PKorda
I’m glad I made this video for you as funnily enough I noticed watching it that I myself don’t do what I’m telling you to do!
One of the three tips that I mention: low contact point so that your racket can continue going up after contact which is crucial in terms of being able to brush the ball up and to the side. Apparently I’m hitting the ball pretty much at the end of my reach hence ending up hitting more of a slice serve rather than a proper kicking one.
Anyway I just wanted to demonstrate my points. Especially the progression exercise at the beginning holding the racket pretty close to its throat is quite helpful imo. Give it a go.

I'd like to hear you narrate an ATP kick serve.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Just what I'm talking about, see how hand and racquet move more across and way more wide from each other by contact for kick serve:

The racket head appears more distant from the hand for the kick because the racket has not risen as high and the racket shaft is still more horizontal. The GIF in post #44 shows that the racket shaft is more horizontal. The complete videos for these serves are available in FYB Youtubes and Anatoly Antipin Youtubes.

For the kick serve, the hand appears closer to the head because the arm is more vertical for the kick serve. This is observed in videos from the behind camera view.

Notice that Salazar's chest faces more to the right for the kick serve than for the flat & slice. At impact for the kick serve, the ISR has not rotated the racket face as much as for the flat & slices serves. Facing the chest to the sides is probably a way to make the racket face more to the right because of less ISR angle at impact. Imagine the kick serve picture being turned counter clockwise and how similar it becomes to the flat and slice.

I measured the angle that the racket shaft rotated in these pictures using a protractor. The kick serve shows less rotation. Unfortunately, these pictures do not show the start of ISR. I guess I could get that from the videos.

 

[Curious]

So @Curious when you get the ball to the blue location without changing your body posture, you are authorized to further complain about not getting more kick because of your knees!

6 inches below that blue dot would be perfect. Stay tuned.

 

[Curious]

I think I’m almost there now with the contact more above my head/to the left. Swing still not quite low to high at contact which limits the brushing up. I definitely have a better feeling now as to how a kick serve should be hit.

 

[Dragy]

I think I’m almost there now with the contact more above my head/to the left. Swing still not quite low to high at contact which limits the brushing up. I definitely have a better feeling now as to how a kick serve should be hit.

Nice! Do you intentionally hit it "to the ad court?" It also looks like a power kick rather than typical spinny kick. Have you experimented with spin/plow ratio?

 

[Curious]

Nice! Do you intentionally hit it "to the ad court?" It also looks like a power kick rather than typical spinny kick. Have you experimented with spin/plow ratio?

Yes I’m hitting there on purpose as it’s more likely for the balls to come back to me that way.
I’m trying to brush it more than drive but finding it a bit hard to achieve as yet.
By the way I’ve also noticed how hard it is to to have the contact above your head and still manage to hit the ball well. I’m apparently so much used to hitting it on my right side for years.

 

[Dragy]

Yes I’m hitting there on purpose as it’s more likely for the balls to come back to me that way.

Could set up and stay a bit more sideways, including initial feet position, to hit big arc kick serves to that direction. Would you test them on court? I've had issues with what felt good spinny kick serve at the wall had very small margin for error on the court - tends to float out sometimes. Yours are low enough though.

 

[Curious]

Could set up and stay a bit more sideways, including initial feet position, to hit big arc kick serves to that direction. Would you test them on court? I've had issues with what felt good spinny kick serve at the wall had very small margin for error on the court - tends to float out sometimes. Yours are low enough though.

This is the first time I’m specifically practicing kick serves. Yes, need to work on being more sideways. Also think the contact is still higher than ideal for a low to high motion during contact. Today I made progress only on the ‘contact more to the left and above head’ part.

 

[Curious]

Oh also I’m sure many will disagree but I’ve discovered something else, actually only after that was I able to fix the toss issue: Djokovic style toss! He starts the tossing motion with his hand quite higher than most players. You know, Federer for example has his hand almost touching his thigh at the beginning. I found that Djokovic style makes placement much easier. Smaller runway.