why is the Tennis Hall of Fame so easy to get into?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by christo, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. christo

    christo Hall of Fame

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    OK let me clarify, this year Helena Sukova is on the ballot, why? She was a great doubles player but didn't win diddly at singles. So is that a relief pitcher comparison? She just wasn't that damn goood .
    And why is Jana Novotna in the HOF? She won 1 GS and cried like a baby in the other final when she choked like a dog. So does every one hit wonder get in the HOF? I guess so. Is Gaston Gaudio in there? How about
    Petr Korda when he was most likely on some kind of PED's? You tell me.
     
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  2. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Only singles players should be allowed into the International Tennis HoF!!! Are you serious? Do this mean the Cara Black and the Bryan bros should never be considered for the ITHoF?

    Should we de-induct doubles greats like Gigi Fernandez and Frew McMillan? In doubles, Gigi won 17 grand slam titles, 69 total titles and a gold medal. But, for singles, she only won 2 titles and never reached the top 10 (altho' she did make it into the top 20). Frew McMillan won 10 slam titles in doubles (men's & mxd). He won a total of 63 men's doubles titles (only J-Mac and Tom Okker have won more). However, he only won 2 singles titles and just barely made it into the top 40 for singles.

    Helena Sukova won 14 grand slam titles and, in all, won 69 WTA doubles titles. Sukova did a bit more than diddly in singles. She did have 10 WTA singles titles and reached a high of #4 in singles. She was runner-up in singles 2x at the USO and 2x at the AO. She also reached the SFs 3 other times in slams. This resume is not too shabby at all.
    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
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  3. christo

    christo Hall of Fame

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    those that can't win in singles play doubles so yes they aren't the best
    Sorry but that's the reality, why not ask them?
     
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  4. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    This sounds like flawed high school tennis thinking. Different skill set for doubles than singles. Elite doubles players often have better reaction times and reflexes than singles players. They are often more creative, athletic, and have better touch and superior volley skills to singles players. The court position, geometry and strategy is more complex for doubs. It is more difficult to coordinate your own game with a team mate than playing by yourself. It is more of a thinking man's/woman's game.

    There are only a few players in the modern era who can play both singles and doubles at a very high level. The Bryan bros and other top doubles players would undoubtedly prevail or any combination of the top 10 singles players in a doubles match.

    Singles is for players who can't hack it in doubles.
    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
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  5. andfor

    andfor Hall of Fame

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    And those who can't play coach, and those who can't coach write. Is that why you're here?
     
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  6. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    The tennis hall of fame is not just about singles. Sukova won nine womens doubles majors (completing the career slam in same sex doubles), 5 mixed doubles majors (only failed to win the Aussie). Sheesh, ya, any old mug can win 14 majors in doubles and that deserves no recognition what so ever.
     
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  7. slowfox

    slowfox Professional

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    It's like a editor trying to fill a magazine. One or two 'real' articles, and the rest is just filler.
     
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  8. CyBorg

    CyBorg Legend

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    It is?

    What if you're only the #4 tennis player in the world? Is that chopped liver?

    What if you're the #4 basketball player in the world? Does anyone then question your eligibility for the NBA hall of fame?
     
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  9. goober

    goober Legend

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    You don't even have to be a tennis player to get in the HoF. Every year there are journalists/photographers or people who made contributions to tennis who never played tennis at any sort of high level elected to the HoF.

    I don't think HoF is really that big of a deal. So it doesn't really bother me one way or another.
     
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  10. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    There should be a 3 slam minimum to get it (use those pro slams for consideration prior to Open era). 1-2 slams should NOT get you into a HOF


    The minimum standard I would set is a Kuerten or Courier like career
     
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  11. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
    #11
  12. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    You really need to consider other factors.

    How about a guy who went deep (QF or better) at the slam events a total of 19 times in singles. Of those, he got to the SF or better 10 times. He was a slam singles finalist five times but was only a champion once. He was stopped in the other 4 slam finals by a guy named Federer, possibly the greatest player of all time. He was also stopped in 3 slam SF by the same GOAT. His overall slam average is better than 77% (with an impressive 80% W-L at the USO).

    In one of the slam finals (2009) lost to the GOAT, he achieved a record not matched by any other player in history -- 39 games won in a Grand Slam final. He won 5 Masters Series and was runner-up another 4 times (lost to the GOAT in 2 of those). He also reach the SF of the Tour Finals 3 times.

    Other stand-alone records include: 18 consecutive tie-breaks won, Fastest serve in a Grand Slam tournament (152 mph at US Open), Fastest serve at Australian Open (148 mph), Fastest serve at Roland Garros, Fastest serve at Wimbledon. He also held the record of fastest serves of all time for more than 7 years (until exceeded in 2011 by Ivo)

    This player was #1 in the world until he was supplanted by the GOAT Federer. He managed to stay in the top 10 for nearly all of 9+ years. The only other player to exceed that in recent times is GOAT Federer. During his pro career he amassed a total of 36 champion titles.

    In my book, this guy deserves to be in the IT Hall of Fame.
     
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  13. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    This guy also won a Davis Cup title, and won at least one title for (I believe) 11 or 12 consecutive years.
     
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  14. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    You can look at that from different angles though.. If Roddick was a TRUE Hall of famer he would have grabbed some slams regardless if Fed was there or not. I mean there are guys around with inferior careers to Roddick who managed to take Fed out a slam. Shouldn't a true "HOF'er like Roddick" do so then? Instead he had some very dismal record vs. Fed and never beat him even once in a slam.

    You have to obviously put Roddick in regardless now though as their standards are obviously not the highest.. I mean Chang is.. That should make Roddick an automatic. But all things considered, I dont think either guy deserves to be in.

    You start putting everyone and their brother in, (1-2 time slam winners) it takes the prestige of a HOF away IMO. Nothing against Roddick, he had a very good career.. I just dont find it HOF worthy.


    "going far" and winning it all are two completely different things.. Roddick didn't win ENOUGH on the big stage IMO
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
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  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Roy Emerson has won 170 doubles titles, Bob Hewitt 163...
     
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  16. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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  17. robow7

    robow7 Professional

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    It's like baseball, you don't get a chance to induct a Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb every year but yet you want a party every year. Also without some of these less than exceptional players, the Hall would be a pretty empty place. I for one would hope tennis would hold to the highest of standards.
     
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  18. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Suspect may be more doubles specialists and fewer singles players soon with the longevity of careers. Any thoughts of Mark Knowles and Rennae Stubbs getting in?
     
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  19. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    To my mind getting to the final (or even the semis) of a Slam event is a huge accomplishment. Being able to do that more than once is a true indication that one is the cream of the crop. Too many people seem to trivialize that accomplishment. Often the difference between the level of play of a Slam champion and the runner-up is very slim. It often comes down to just a few points in the final set. Luck is sometimes a factor on those few points -- a bad bounce or a go-for-broke lucky serve return.

    Witness the recent Serena-Vika final at the USO. Or how about Roger over Andy at the 2009 at Wimbledon? In many respects, the loser, Roddick, outplayed the victor at that final. Roger has lost to Novak more than once in a Slam final by a very slim margin -- came down to a few points. A berth in a slam final has to be earned -- either player who gets there deserves to be a champion. Sometimes the path to get there is much easier for one player than the other (2 or 3 easy rounds or even a bye whereas the other had some tougher pre-final matches that requires more hours on the court). Given these and other factors, the slam champion is not necessarily more deserving than the runner-up in many cases.

    In Roddick's case, he was denied a slam championship 7 times by arguably the best player of all time. Other than Novak and Rafa, there have been only 2 times, I believe, where a player was able to beat Roger in a slam final or SF.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
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  20. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Is Jan Kodes in the HOF?
     
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  21. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Stubbs won 6 majors in doubles (4 same sex, 2 mixed), made 4 additonal finals, was number 1 in the world, won over 800 matches and won 60 titles

    Knowles won 3 majors, made 8 additional finals, won over 700 matches, 55 titles and was number 1.

    Both will eventually be inducted I think. Some will throw temper tantrums because it was all in doubles..but doubles is tennis too and any player with a singles career like either of those are locked inductees...they both should make it.
     
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  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Andrew Tas informed me that Emerson won 170 doubles titles (most of them before open era), and Joe McCauley informed me that Hewitt has won 163 doubles titles.
     
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  23. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    I have no problem whatsoever with Jana Novotna and Michael Chang being inducted into the HoF. Jana has 17 slam championships to her name. It is true that only one of these was a singles championship. However, she was runner-up in 3 other slam singles finals losing to the likes of Seles (91), Graf (93) and Hingis (97). She attained a singles ranking of #2 and a doubles ranking of #1. In total, she had 26 singles titles and 82 doubles titles. At the Olympics, she earned 2 silver medals for doubles (88 & 96) and a bronze for singles (1996).

    She was a very accomplished grass court player with a record of 56-8 for doubles and 53-13 in singles at Wimbledon. Her clay court play was not too shabby either -- 48-9 in doubles at RG. Can't see why anyone with this kind of resume would be denied entry into the HoF.

    As we all know, Michael Chang was the youngest male ever to win a slam championship -- while experiencing severe leg cramps, he prevailed at RG over the great Ivan Lendl (who won RG 3 times; runner-up 2x) on the road to his slam title. Altho' Chang only won one slam event in his career, he was runner-up 3 times (AO, RG, USO) and reached the SFs another 4 times.

    He reached a rank of #2 in the world, won 34 singles titles and achieved a year-end ranking in the top 10 for a very impressive 7 years. Compare this to a couple of multi-slam winners mentioned by 90's Clay, Gustavo Kuerten and Jim Courier. Gustavo won a mere 20 singles titles and had a year-end ranking in the top 10 for 3 years. (Yes, I am aware of his hip injures). Jim Courier, a contemporary of Chang, won 23 singles titles and had a year-end ranking in the top 10 for 4 years (1991-93 were really his only stellar years). Head-to-head, Chang and Courier were 12-12.

    Andre Agassi (at San Jose in 2003) credited speed demon, Michael Chang, with raising the level of the men's game of tennis in the 80s and 90s. With his blazing footwork/foot-speed, his tenacity, and his work ethic, Chang inspired other players on the tour to significantly ramp up their fitness levels and push themselves to their limits. Chang was also very influential in promoting the game of tennis in Asia. With Michael's considerable contributions & credentials, it would have been criminal not to recognize his efforts/achievements in the International Tennis HoF.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012
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  24. christo

    christo Hall of Fame

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    exactly my point. HOF needs a steady stream of inductees every year
    in the machine to justify their mediocre candidates. If they don't have enough ringers who will cover the event? When Novotna was chosen I realized the event was bullcrap, they had basically created an annual gathering to blow smoke up each other's behinds. HOF should have much higher standards. Otherwise every player who wins a GS whether it be singles or dubs should book a flight to RI:oops:
     
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  25. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Hoad and Rosewalll won 15 MAJOR doubles titles, more than any other doubles team. This was despite the fact that they only played a few short years together.
     
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  26. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    When will Iva Majoli, Justine Henin, and Anastasia Myskina be inducted?
     
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  27. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    Henin, obviously. But, I don't think Majoli and Myskina make it. I know, I know, if other 1-slam winners make it, why not them? Well, because, the 1-slam winners always have "other" stats, including achieving No. 1 ranking, a certain number of overall titles, other Slam finals, doubles Slams, etc.
     
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  28. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Were you watching tennis when Novotna was active? I remember her as a world class athlete was was always a threat, in both doubles and singles. She was one of the top doubles players of all time. But then you've already exposed yourself as a singles elitist. Hardly bullcrap when the inductee has won 17 slam titles, was a singles slam finalist 4 times, has won 3 Olympic medals, achieved a #2 ranking in singles and a #1 ranking in doubs.

    Since you seem to be completely disregarding her stellar doubles achievements, consider the following. Of the 11-12 years that she was on the pro tour, she achieved a year-end ranking in the top 10 in singles for 7 years and a top 13 ranking for 10 years. This is hardly just another run-of-the-mill or mediocre tennis player. Her resume for both singles and doubles justifies her induction.

    You really did not pick the best of examples (Novotna & Sukova) in your attempt to make your point. Note that Sukova, in addition to the accomplishments I listed in post#2, was a top 10 (year-end) singles player for 6 years straight (and top 25/30 for 13/15 years). She also earned the silver medal in 2 Olympics. Also, I do not believe that either Gaudio or Korda have been inducted into the HoF.
     
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  29. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Henin is a dead cert for induction, it is only a matter of waiting till she is elligible to be.

    Myskina might be let in as the first Russian to win a major in singles and she was #2 in the world for a while (maybe the first Russian to be that high?? Or did Morozova get there?)
    She was kinda the first leg of the " Russian Revolution" of 2004, the effects of which carry on to this day. But even then outside that major and the ranking for the short time she had it...he resume is small in comparison to Novotna and Sabatini

    It would surprise me if Majoli is inducted, he resume is smaller than Myskinas
     
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