Why Nadal is better than Fed.

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by smoledman, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    We all know how dominant they are on their best surfaces. Nadal on clay. Federer on hard/grass. But how well do they do on their weakest?

    Nadal has 10 big hard/grass titles
    Federer has 7 big clay titles

    But more importantly is Nadal has 4 grass/hard slams to only 1 clay slam for Federer.

    4 > 1.
     
    #1
  2. Surecatch

    Surecatch Semi-Pro

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    As is the case with almost all of these types of threads, your reasonings are quite misleading.

    Calling clay Fed's "weakest" surface might technically be accurate, but he's been known for many years to be probably the best clay court player NOT named Nadal. If there was no Nadal, Federer would have won many many more clay titles. Being second to the best ever does not equal "weak." You might more accurately describe clay as Roger's "least totally awesome" surface. ;)

    Fed is one of the best ever on all three surfaces. Nadal is one of the best ever on one.
     
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  3. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    That's a little short sighted. Ever since Nadal started his dominance as the clay GOAT Federer established himself as the indisputed #2 on clay (debatable now with Djokovic's arrival). I don't think you can say the same for Nadal on hard court or grass.

    What your stats answers is: Who is more dominant on their respective surfaces, Federer or Nadal? The answer is obviously Nadal but that doesn't make him a more well player.
     
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  4. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    Really ? Another Fedal thread ? You bored ? :)
     
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  5. AnotherTennisProdigy

    AnotherTennisProdigy Professional

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    Lol, you beat me to it,
     
    #5
  6. SStrikerR

    SStrikerR Hall of Fame

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    Nadal has two surfaces to win on, and Federer gets one. Yeah, this argument makes sense.
     
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  7. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal is better than Federer on clay but Fed is better on hc, grass and indoor.
     
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  8. Semi-Pro

    Semi-Pro Hall of Fame

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    Finally revealing your inner self after months in hibernation huh LOLvile :lol::lol:

    It must eat you from the inside :lol::lol:
     
    #8
  9. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Pretty absurd comparison, don't you think Nads should have more titles if you are comparing him on 2 surfaces to Fed on 1. Not to mention there are how many slams a year off of clay on these 2 surfaces. So Nads has 3 chances to win on these surfaces, where Fed has 1 chance. And how many HC masters a year versus clay? Nice trolling with you.
     
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  10. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

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    cat is out of the bag hehe ;)
     
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  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal leads the head-to-head against:

    Federer 18-10 (8-2 in majors)
    Djokovic 19-14 (6-3 in majors)
    Murray 13-5 (6-2 in majors)

    Nadal has the most ridiculous clay-court dominance, and has also won the career Grand Slam. He also had a period of winning 8 titles in 4 months from April to August 2008.
     
    #11
  12. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    not even that, it's 3 majors to 1
     
    #12
  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Nadal and Federer are history. Very soon the threads will be moved to the Former Pro Player section. It is all about Murray, Del Po, Tipsy, and Djoker now.
     
    #13
  14. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    If you're using h2h record, then Davy is better than Nadal.:)
     
    #14
  15. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    What's his trophy cabinet like compared to Nadal's? ;)
     
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  16. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    my brother told me he thought Nadal's groundstrokes were more beautiful than Federer's.

    I responded "What?!?" :-O
     
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  17. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

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    Davydenko leads 6-5. Not a significant lead. That would be like saying Gilles Simon is better than Federer, since he once led the H2H with him 2-0.
     
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  18. tennis_pro

    tennis_pro G.O.A.T.

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    No, that would mean that Simon was better once but Federer improved and now they are all square. All Simon has to do now is to win 17 majors and there won't be anything to separate the 2.
     
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  19. Bergboy123

    Bergboy123 Semi-Pro

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    Haha love it!
     
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  20. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Agreed there. Federer's game is the most beautiful ever.
     
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  21. Netspirit

    Netspirit Hall of Fame

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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

    Nadal fans also believe his voice sounds better.
     
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  22. dangalak

    dangalak Banned

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    Considering the FH to Federer's BH, winning 1 FO is pretty impressive.

    Also, didn't know that HC/grass were one surface. :lol:
     
    #22
  23. BHud

    BHud Professional

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    Given that 3 of the 4 slams are on hard or grass, wouldn't you expect this to be the case? Nice logic, no?

    Give it up...Nads is not deserving of being in the discussion for best player of all time (an honor Fed has earned)...yet. He has been a tremendous career #2 man though, no?
     
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  24. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    oh. i thought this was purely h-h.

    trophy cabinet?

    well in that case. federer is 6 slams ahead of nadal.

    thats like federer= nadal + becker

    lol.
     
    #24
  25. Sartorius

    Sartorius Professional

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    Impressive as these feats might be, given the context of this thread, this really begs for the question: So what? (I don't see the OP as a worthy discussion)

    The main discussion about Federer and Nadal will always see people who are dancing around their h2h, and those who claim h2h does not necessarily make a player better, or the best. I myself support the latter view.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
    #25
  26. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal has had such an excellent career and that is combined with his excellent head-to-heads against his biggest rivals. Federer has the better overall achievements, but has had a losing head-to-head against Nadal since 2005 and also has a losing head-to-head against Murray. Even Djokovic is closer to Federer than Nadal in head-to-head.

    I am just stating Nadal's case ;)
     
    #26
  27. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    Nadal's head to head against federer is misleading because federer almost always makes it far enough to meet nadal in the draw but nadal often doesn't make it far enough to meet federer.

    So the times when nadal wasnt playing a great tournament and would likely have lost to federer he doesn't even make it that far.

    BUT

    When Federer is playing a sub par tournament he still makes it to Nadal but then loses.
     
    #27
  28. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The 2010 and 2011 Wimbledons and US Opens say otherwise.
     
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  29. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Oh yes... post prime Federer has the obligation to make USO finals after his peak but Nadal doesn't do it until the last 2 years during his.. Great Logic. Where was Nadal for the preceding 4 years of him winning majors?
     
    #29
  30. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Or Fed = Nads, Djoker, Murray.
     
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  31. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Post-prime Federer in 2010-2011 means pre-prime Nadal in 2005-2007.
     
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  32. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    The h2h between Fed and Nadal is pointless/meaningless because they are 5 years apart. We should compare player's h2h when both are at the same age, same prime/peak years.

    Nadal should be comparing to Nole, Murray or Monfils. And Fed should be comparing to Roddick, Davy or Hewitt. Now let see who has a better winning % between Fed and Nadal.
     
    #32
  33. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal won 11 titles in 2005. Fed never came close in winning that much in those two years combined.
     
    #33
  34. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    Nadal has enjoyed a nice advantage over his main rivals throughout his career. Something Fed can't say.

    Djoker got the best of him last year, and Nadal stopped that this year. Nadal has had the h2h advantage over Fed since 2005 and has not been able to beat Nadal at a slam in five years.. Thats a long freakin time

    The only thing that stopped Nadal was injuries.. Something no other player could consistently do
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
    #34
  35. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    ??????????????????????????????????

    Just to name a few players Fed has a winning h2h:

    Gonzalez 12-1
    Hewitt 18-8
    Davy 17-2
    Roddick 21-3
    Ljubicic 13-3

    Now let see how Nadal h2h records against his main rivals.
     
    #35
  36. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Some of Nadal head-to-heads:

    Federer 18-10
    Djokovic 19-14
    Murray 13-5
    Ferrer 16-4
    Berdych 12-3
    Soderling 6-2
    Youzhny 9-4
    Verdasco 13-1
    Gasquet 10-0
    Monfils 8-2
    Hewitt 6-4
    Roddick 7-3
    Coria 4-1
    Nalbandian 4-2
    Davydenko 5-6
    Ljubicic 7-2
    Ferrero 7-2
    Moya 6-2
    Blake 4-3
    Safin 2-0
    Agassi 2-0
    Fish 8-1
    Ancic 4-1
    Baghdatis 7-1
    Stepanek 6-0
    Wawrinka 8-0
    Almagro 8-0
    Lopez 9-2
    Del Potro 7-3
    Tsonga 7-3
    Gonzalez 7-3
    Haas 5-0
    Kiefer 5-0
    Ivanisevic 2-0
    Norman 1-0
    Henman 2-0
    Gaudio 3-3
    Schuettler 5-1
    Robredo 6-0
     
    #36
  37. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Some of the players I don't agee. i.e. Haas, Henman is much older than Nadal. Agassi is old enough to be his father.

    But you noticed some of the player like Davy, Blake, Youznhy.....Fed was much better record against them.

    Now you know how wrong it is to compare player's h2h when the age gap is too far off.
     
    #37
  38. The_Order

    The_Order Legend

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    No, Nadal is categorically the best on clay. Nobody comes close to his record on clay.

    On grass, there are a few that could be in contention to challenge Federer's status, which is why Fed is NOT categorically the best player ever on grass.

    With HC, it's a little hard to tell because the HC at the AO is different to the HC at the USO. At the AO, Fed is clearly not the best ever, especially when it changed to plexicushion.

    USO he is also not clearly above every other player that's ever played on the decoturf II.
     
    #38
  39. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    On Grass, only Sampras competes. With that said, Federer does have the win over Sampras at Wimbledon (though I don't think it really means much, seeing that it was a very close match when neither of them was close to their primes), the extra Wimbledon final, and the Olympic Silver. I personally think Sampras is (was) the better Grasscourter but Federer does have the better claim to being the GGCOAT.

    Coming to hard, come on, it's not even close. 5 USOs, no one's got more. 4 AOs, no one's got more. 6 WTF titles, no one's got more. And look at all his Masters titles there. If you're gonna say Federer isn't that great on plexicushion, you'd be wrong. It was changed when he was past his prime and he still won there once. And you can't just disregard his success on Rebound Ace. You could make the same argument to denigrate Nadal's dominance on clay saying he sucked on Blue Clay by the same token.

    Either way, Federer's one of the best Grasscourters ever (if not the best), one of the best Hardcourters ever (if not the best), and arguably the 2nd best Claycourter of his era (second only to the GOAT). And Nadal's just the best Claycourter ever.
     
    #39
  40. firepanda

    firepanda Professional

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    Good man Davydenko. :D
     
    #40
  41. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    I can't believe you started such a thread. You know what you did right? TT seppuku.
     
    #41
  42. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    OMG, this is :lol:

    I'll play this game.

    Let's consider Federer's 2 worst surfaces and Nadal's 2 worst surfaces.

    Federer's : Clay and Grass (he has 9 HC Slams so it has to be his best surface going by the OP's logic)
    Nadal's : Hard and Grass (Clay is obviously his best surface)

    Number of Slams Federer has on his two "worst" surfaces : 1+7=8
    Number of Slams Nadal has on his two "worst" surfaces : 2+2=4

    8>4 ==> Federer>Nadal

    :lol:
     
    #42
  43. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    Oh my gosh, we could even consider ALL THREE SURFACES! Revolutionary. Anyway in the OP by even bringing this up you concede that Fed is a goat candidate on two of three surfaces, where nadal until 2008 was largely irrelevant off of clay, and has always been patchy off dirt. For me I fail to see how dominating one surface is superior to dominating two. Perhaps the OP would like to explain it to me
     
    #43
  44. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    I picked 2 for Federer because the OP picked 2 for Nadal.
     
    #44
  45. DolgoSantoro

    DolgoSantoro Professional

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    I know, I wasn't mocking you, just showing that if you frame it just about any way except for the flawed analysis of the OP Fed is going to come out of top.
     
    #45
  46. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

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    That's what I said. It's like, it's not enough to have all these threads about Rafa vs Fed. Good work smokedman :-?
     
    #46
  47. billnepill

    billnepill Hall of Fame

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    Mustard's logic is incredibly behind in the light of his statistical knowledge. Having said that, 75% of his recent posts are about Nadal's clay inflated h2h against the top players. Strange. It dazzles me how he moans about inequality and spreads his communist views but he fails to see how unfair is to use a h2h where majority of the matches were played on Nadal's best surface and Federer leads in the rest?

    The fact that he also uses this to weaken Fed GOAT's claims as opposed to only strengthen Nadal's? BS
     
    #47
  48. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    So the thread has become why Nadal is not better than Federer.
     
    #48
  49. Zarfot Z

    Zarfot Z Semi-Pro

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    Uh... No.

    Federer's true rivals are guys like Nalbandian, Hewitt, Roddick and Safin, who he has crushed multiple times. Unlike his current rivals, they are roughly his age and not 5-6 years younger.

    Djokovic/Murray and Nadal to some degree are part of the 'new generation' of players to challenge Federer.

    And the amazing thing is that despite his age, Federer has managed to successfully keep up with this new generation of rivals. Leading H2H against Djoker and basically tied H2H against Murray is a testament to that.

    Bottom line is, calling players 5-6 years younger than Federer his 'main rivals' is delusional. And expecting Federer to lead the H2H between said players in their peak, whilst he is in decline is retarded. ******* will very likely end up with a losing H2H against Djokovic, Murray and Nadal by the time he retires.

    tl;dr Federer has demolished an entire generation and subdued another.
     
    #49
  50. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Negative head to head against a surface goat is ok.
     
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