Why the GOAT does NOT exist

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Blocker, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    What difference does watching a matching "live" make? And you're just some guy on the Internet, you could claim anything.

    That said, Federer was past his prime in both the matches. He was freaking 30 in one match! If you're gonna say Nadal would've beaten Federer on Hardcourts, you must admit Federer would've beaten Sampras on Grass as well, seeing that 19 year-old Green Horn Federer beat 4-time defending Champion Sampras on his favorite: Fast, Wimbledon Grass. Do you? Because, you know, Federer had Sampras covered on a Tennis court separated by a net, too :)
     
  2. MonkeyBoy

    MonkeyBoy Professional

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    Nadal would have a weaker hth vs Federer had he met him in the us open 2004-7, but that would have been a pre-prime Nadal competing against a prime Federer. Just as recent match ups of the two have Nadal outgunning a post-prime Federer.

    Its incredibly hard to compare Federer and Nadal because of the age difference. You can make the argument that if their ages were switched the slam count would be the other way around. No one doubts the era prime Nadal had to compete with was tougher than when Fed was coming to power.

    I think you can just as well argue Djokovic has them both beat. He essentially achieved in 2011 what Federer had in 2006, but with stronger opposition. Djokovic was 2/2 against a 24 year old Nadal on clay, while Federer was 0/3 against a 19 year Nadal on clay in 06.

    But you also can't just judge by peak, at least, not in my opinion. Players should be judged by consistency over a long period of time rather than absolute peak form.
     
  3. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    I totally agree. And that makes head-to-head a totally insignificant stat, because it's nigh impossible to make a fair assessment based on it, seeing there are so many variables and parameters, like surfaces, ages, peaks, primes, pre-primes, post-primes, and most importantly, varying performance trajectories.
     
  4. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Yess.. Like he did against Murray in the Wimbledon final. There's no doubt Sampras was mentally superstrong, but this is not an argument that he's better than Fed at all.
     
  5. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Blocker please get your facts right.
     
  6. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    If you compare Federer and Nadals records, Nadal is not a goat candidate. And having a loosing h2h to a surface goat (Nadal) does not change that.
     
  7. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    But he did not, which is why Federer was the superior, more succesfull player.
     
  8. checkmilu

    checkmilu Rookie

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    Ok. there is no absolute GOAT. AND there is one relative GOAT: Roger Federer who won the most Slams, be no1 longest time, and most of all not measurable but most skill-full and most pleasant to watch.
    If Messi was voted the best player of the last 3 years. We can vote for the GOAT of tennis and I am sure that Fed will be voted tennis GOAT no matter if voted by coaches, david cup captains, journalists or fans or any group. Why the ATP don't do such thing? Because they don't need to. Fed is so far the GOAT. Any argument against this is useless because the majority have already made up their mind :)
     
  9. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Federer is more mentally fragile than Sampras, but that doesn't mean he's a better player.
     
  10. Magnetite

    Magnetite Professional

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    /thread

    (10)
     
  11. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    Sampras is the goat since he was more dominant in his era than anyone else has ever been in their era, by winning 175% the number of slams as the next best of his era, Agassi. Fed has won 155% the number of slams as the next best in his era, Nadal.:)
     
  12. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    No, because Agassi was not a (probable) surface goat.
     
  13. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Federer won 155% of the number of Slams a player who is 137.5% better than Agassi won! :) Which makes Federer's dominance = (155 x 137.5)/100 dominant compared to Sampras's dominance of 175% :)
     
  14. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    You may have had a point if Agassi was in this era instead of in the Sampras era, but he's not, so we have to compare relative dominance and Sampras has dominated his era like no one else has dominated their era. Fed can still try to become as dominant as Sampras by accumulating more slams and hoping that Nadal doesn't add to his slams. :) In fact Sampras retired with 14 slams while Agassi had 7 (200% the slams!). Fed would need to retire with 22 slams while Nadal remains on 11 to become as dominant as Sampras was when Sampras retired. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
  15. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    That's not the half of it.

    Sampras has a losing head to head with other all-time greats such as:

    > Mark Keil - career high ranking of 167. Best GS result: 2rd round at Aussie Open. Career titles: 0.

    > George Bastl - career high ranking of 71. Best GS result: 3rd round at Wimbledon. Career titles: 0.

    > Leander Paes - career high ranking of 73. Best GS result: 3rd round at US Open. Career titles: 1.

    > Paul Haarhuis - career high ranking of 18. Best GS result: QF round at US Open.

    > Max Mirnyi - career high ranking of 18. Best GS result: QF round at US Open. Career titles: 1.

    ...and there are more where these came from.
     
  16. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    True.

    Disagree, they're largely part of the same era, playing in the same conditions (unlike say if you were to compare players from 90s to players from 2000s), once they both hang up their racquets the comparison should be straightforward enough.

    And you can also make the argument that in that case Fed's H2H with Nadal would be much better, can you imagine a 25 year old Fed facing off against a 30 year old Nadal? I'd reckon most people think that would have been quite brutal (and not just indoors).

    Regardless, I disagree that their slam counts would be reversed, or atleast I don't have enough data.

    With the current utterly pitiful young generation (by far the worst I've ever seen, it isn't even close) it would be up to Novak and Murray to stop Fed from winning slams and it has yet to be seen whether they'll age anywhere near as good as Fed did, if they don't I can't see who would have stopped Fed from ending with a basically same amount of slams (but more stretched over the years).


    It isn't up to you to speak for everyone now, isn't it? I certainly don't find 2008-2010 all that impressive (especially 2010 was very lackluster)and while I do think that since 2011 the top 4 were terrific, aside from them the field is lacking depth IMO.

    There's also the issue of pinpointing Nadal's actual prime(I've yet to receive a clear answer on that from any of his fans) so we understand what period are we actually discussing here.

    Mostly agree, regardless of the poor finish of the season, Novak's 2011 was fantastic (one of the highest level of play I've ever seen in tennis).

    Judge solely by peak performance? No, but it can certainly be a factor when comparing players (how much of a factor is of course subjective), many put JMac for example above say Lendl, Connors or Agassi mainly because of his amazing level of play in 1984.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
  17. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Actually, Sampras was 2-6 against Krajicek before Richar's knee surgery.

    Shame they only met once at Wimbledon :).
     
  18. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Federer won 11 slams in 4 years. During which won 3 slams in a year 3 times. He was 2 sets away from winning 4 in a year on two occasions. He also had 237 consecutive weeks as world number 1. Peak Federer was alot more dominant than Sampras.
     
  19. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Thankfully this forum is the only place where Nads is a goat candidate .
     
  20. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    No he's not !


    Most GS titles
    1. Roger Federer 17*
    2. Pete Sampras 14
    3. Björn Borg 11
    = Rafael Nadal 11*
    5. Jimmy Connors 8
    = Ivan Lendl 8
    = Andre Agassi 8
    8. John McEnroe 7
    = Mats Wilander 7
    10. Stefan Edberg 6
    = Boris Becker 6

    GS finals
    1. Roger Federer 24*
    2. Ivan Lendl 19
    3. Pete Sampras 18
    4. Björn Borg 16
    = Rafael Nadal 16*
    6. Jimmy Connors 15
    = Andre Agassi 15
    8. John McEnroe 11
    = Mats Wilander 11
    = Stefan Edberg 11

    Consecutive GS finals
    1. Roger Federer 10
    2. Roger Federer 8

    3. Rafael Nadal 5
    4. Andre Agassi 4
    = Rod Laver 4
    = Novak Djokovic 4
    7. Jimmy Connors 3
    = Björn Borg 3
    = Björn Borg 3
    = Björn Borg 3
    = Ivan Lendl 3
    = John McEnroe 3
    = Ivan Lendl 3
    = Ivan Lendl 3
    = Mats Wilander 3
    = Jim Courier 3
    = Jim Courier 3
    = Pete Sampras 3
    = Rafael Nadal 3


    GS semi-finals
    1. Roger Federer 32*
    2. Jimmy Connors 31
    3. Ivan Lendl 28
    4. Andre Agassi 26
    5. Pete Sampras 23
    6. John McEnroe 19
    = Stefan Edberg 19
    8. Boris Becker 18
    9. Björn Borg 17
    = Rafael Nadal 16*

    Consecutive GS semi-finals
    1. Roger Federer 23
    2. Ivan Lendl 10
    3. Novak Djokovic 9*
    4. Ivan Lendl 6
    = Nadal 6
    6. Novak Djokovic 5
    = Boris Becker 5
    8. Roger Federer 4*
    = Rod Laver 4
    = Tony Roche 4
    = John McEnroe 4
    = Andre Agassi 4
    = Jim Courer 4
    = Nadal 4
    = Andy Murray 4

    GS quarter-finals
    1. Jimmy Connors 41
    2. Roger Federer 38*
    3. Agassi 36
    4. Ivan Lendl 34
    5. Pete Sampras 29
    6. John McEnroe 26
    = Stefan Edberg 26
    8. Boris Becker 23
    = Rafael Nadal 23*
    9. Novak Djokovic 22*
    10. Björn Borg 21

    Consecutive GS quarter-finals
    1. Roger Federer 34*
    2. Ivan Lendl 14
    = Novak Djokovic 14*
    4. Rafael Nadal 11
    5. Pete Sampras 10
    6. Ivan Lendl 7
    = Mats Wilander 7
    = Andy Murray 7
    9. Andre Agassi 6
    = Rafael Nadal 6

    All Four Slams Per Year
    Rod Laver 1969

    Three Slams Per Year
    Jimmy Connors 1974
    Mats Wilander 1988
    Roger Federer 2004
    Roger Federer 2006
    Roger Federer 2007

    Rafael Nadal 2010
    Novak Djokovic 2011


    All Four Finals Per Year
    Roger Federer 2006
    Roger Federer 2007
    Roger Federer 2009

    Rod Laver 1969

    All Four Semi-finals Per Year
    Rod Laver 1969
    Ivan Lendl 1987
    Roger Federer 2005
    Roger Federer 2006
    Roger Federer 2007
    Roger Federer 2008
    Roger Federer 2009

    Rafael Nadal 2008
    Novak Djokovic 2011
    Andy Murray 2011

    Most consecutive matches won at one Grand Slam event:
    1. Björn Borg (Wimbledon), 41
    2. Roger Federer (Wimbledon), 40
    = Roger Federer (US Open), 40

    4. Pete Sampras (Wimbledon), 31
    = Rafael Nadal (French Open), 31

    Most consecutive Slams played:
    1. Wayne Ferreira 56
    2. Stefan Edberg 54
    3. Roger Federer 52*
    4. Fabrice Santoro 46
    5. Dominik Hrbatý 44
    6. Feliciano Lopez 43*
    7. Tommy Robredo 41
    8. David Ferrer 40*
    9. Mark Woodforde 37
    =. Jonas Björkman 37

    Most Grand Slam match wins
    2. Roger Federer 248*
    2. Jimmy Connors 233
    3. Andre Agassi 224
    4. Ivan Lendl 222
    5. Pete Sampras 204

    Other Stuff:

    Year-End Championships
    1. Roger Federer 6*
    2. Ivan Lendl 5
    = Pete Sampras 5
    4. Ilie Nastase 3
    = John McEnroe 3
    = Boris Becker 3

    Most Weeks at #1
    1. Roger Federer 297+*
    2. Pete Sampras 286
    3. Ivan Lendl 270
    4. Jimmy Connors 268
    5. John McEnroe 170
    6. Björn Borg 109
    7. Rafael Nadal 102*
    8. Andre Agassi 101
    9. Lleyton Hewitt 80
    10. Stefan Edberg 72

    Consecutive Weeks at #1
    1. Roger Federer (1) 237
    2. Jimmy Connors (1) 160
    3. Ivan Lendl (1) 157
    4. Pete Sampras (1) 102
    5. Jimmy Connors (2) 84
    6. Pete Sampras (2) 82
    7. Ivan Lendl (2) 80
    8. Lleyton Hewitt (1) 75
    9. John McEnroe (1) 58
    10. Rafael Nadal (1) 56

    Year End #1
    1. Sampras 6
    2. Federer 5*
    3. Borg 4
    4. Connors 3
    = Lendl 3
    = McEnroe 3


    Highest Season Winning Percentage
    1. John McEnroe (1984) .965 82–3
    2. Jimmy Connors (1974) .959 93–4
    3. Roger Federer (2005) .953 81–4
    4. Roger Federer (2006) .948 92–5

    5. Björn Borg (1979) .933 84–6
    6. Ivan Lendl (1986) .925 74–6
    7. Roger Federer (2004) .925 74–6
    8. Ivan Lendl (1985) .923 84–7
    9. Ivan Lendl (1982) .922 106–9
    10. Björn Borg (1980) .921 70–6
    = Novak Djokovic (2011) 0.921 70-6

    Most ATP Titles
    1. Jimmy Connors 109
    2. Ivan Lendl 94
    3. John McEnroe 77
    4. Roger Federer 75*
    5. Björn Borg 64
    = Pete Sampras 64
    7. Guillermo Vilas 62
    8. Andre Agassi 60
    9. Sampras 6
    = Rafael Nadal 50*
    10. Boris Becker 49

    Consecutive Match Win Streak
    1. Björn Borg 49 1978
    2. Björn Borg 48 1979–80
    3. Guillermo Vilas 46 1977
    4. Ivan Lendl 44 1981–82
    5. Novak Djokovic 43 2010–11
    6. John McEnroe 42 1984
    7. Roger Federer 41 2006–07
    8. Thomas Muster 35 1995
    = Roger Federer 35 2005
    10.Jimmy Connors 33 1974
     
  21. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Anyone who say Nadal is a goat are trolling. Nadal's level is equivalent to Serena in the WTA.
     
  22. jokinla

    jokinla Hall of Fame

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    Do you watch tennis? They played 3 times in the last year with Fed winning twice, with one set a 6-0 beatdown.
     
  23. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Considering most experts are now calling Serena the female GOAT, that is a poor choice of words.
     
  24. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    In any GOAT thread, this should be quoted in the very first post.

    Federer is the indisputable GOAT - his records speak for themselves.
     
  25. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Sorry, most still have Graf as the greatest. I don't take such article like SI seriously because they are biased toward American.
     
  26. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    So, OP enlighten us how you came to the conclusion Fed is not winning against the field, Fed does not beat his direct rivals and anyone else ?

    By your logic, if Fed continues playing for a few years more, does he need to have a positive H2H versus Fillip Peliwo, Janowicz, Lucas and players who are currently in the under 10 age group competitions ?
     
  27. Gonzo_style

    Gonzo_style Hall of Fame

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    Agree, Graf is a greatest tennis player, male or female, of all time.
     
  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Top 4 male tennis players in history in descending order:

    Nadal
    Federer
    Laver
    Agassi
     
  29. tennisaddict

    tennisaddict G.O.A.T.

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    Nadal is the GOAT then ? I thought you mentioned recently that unless Nadal comes within a major or two of Fed, Fed is the GOAT for the time being.
     
  30. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    it's called trolling :)
     
  31. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Laver is an old man with a wooden racquet, while Fred and Agasi are cheats and drug addicts from weak eras.
     
  32. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Serena hasn't come a lightyear within Graf's career. Not yet, anyway.
     
  33. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Gasquet has gotten away with taking cocaine and now he's back in the top ten.
     
  34. FlyingAce

    FlyingAce New User

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    What a stupid monkey
    If 1-0 is not significant sample, Then how this can be significant sample??

    Hard courts: Federer, 6–5 (Nadal Davydenko 5-1 buy your logic Davydenko was far superior to Nadal on hard courts)
    Grass courts: Federer, 2–1 ( that might have beed 12-2 as opposed to 2-1 to Nadal on clay, if we switch grass and clay shares in a season)

    Again what a monkey, when you say something make sure you understand
    what you are saying
     
  35. FlyingAce

    FlyingAce New User

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    And to the OP, if you say any player in any era, please don't forget any surface of any era, I think than there would have been many more fast courts
     
  36. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    That doesnt change the fact many experts now name Serena Williams as the GOAT. John McEnroe, Pam Shriver, Cliff Drysdale, Bud Collins, Chris Evert, Mary Joe Fernandez, Peter Bodo, Jon Wertheim, Fred Stolle, Mary Carillo, Billie Jean King have all started calling her that recently. Perhaps they go by the thinking it is "best" and not "most accomplished" that matters most, in other words who would generally kick all others ass on the court if they played prime to prime, and that is Serena (apart from clay).

    After all if it is just about numbers the GOAT would be Margaret Court hands down, certainly not Steffi Graf. Court has the most singles slams (24), more combined singles, doubles, and mixed doubles slams (62), most singles tournament titles (199), the best longevity (dominating at 17 and still at 31), the highest career win % of any women. Meanwhile if it is just about numbers Graf certainly isnt the GOAT either, just like Serena wouldnt be. Not only does she not hold the most slams in singles, she doesnt hold the most titles at any of the sports 5 biggest events- Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, U.S Open, or the WTA Championships. She doesnt even hold the Open Era record of most at any of those events, and that is what the boost she got from her main rival being stabbed. She doesnt have the single best year record (that is Navratilova), the best career win percentage despite retiring at barely 30, she didnt win 6 slams in a row like Court and Navratilova did, she does not have the consistency records which belong to Evert, nor any of the longevity records which all belong to Court, Evert, or Navratilova. Basically she has nothing other than her 4 of each slam record, that is it, and the odds of her achieving that without the Seles stabbing are miniscule to nothing, and the weeks at #1 record which is also of little value when the computer rankings only began in 1975 eliminating or hampering (eg- Evert) all potential GOATs except for Navratilova, Graf, and Serena.

    So obviously Graf fans are not using numbers when they proclaim her GOAT, as even with her biggest rival stabbed her numbers to be proclaimed GOAT over all others simply arent there, and apparently the experts are taking a cue from them and doing likewise when it comes to Serena.
     
  37. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    The common thread between almost all those analysts is almost all of them are American therefore they are biased. Anybody with their head on straight will never claim that Serena is better than Steffi Graf. Those analysts are at best confusing "most power" and "greatest." Serena (and Venus) changed the womens game through sheer power, but in no way does that mean that Serena or her sister are the best results wise. At least 6 of those analysts are in love with Serena, and at least 1 of them changes his opinion as quick as night turns to day. If she told them to jump they'd say "how high?" It is like trying to claim that Sampras (I could use a few of your favourites, but I'd rather not) is better than Federer. It is simply, absolutely, positively not true.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  38. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Like I said if the basis for greatest or best is RESULTS then Graf is also not the greatest. Court, Navratilova, and Evert own the record books. So what is the criteria here. It seems Graf fans want to invent a criteria she is the best which downplays the results of other players with qualifications like not enough competition or subjective views on level of play, yet when someone like Serena who is rated mostly based on those things is involved suddenly it is only about numbers, LOL! If anything should have their numbers qualified it is Graf, the only all time great in history, man or women, who had their chief rival stabbed to help them progress.
     
  39. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    You know exactly why Court isn't called the GOAT. And why Graf is. You're just trolling for the heck of it.
     
  40. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Yes since people chose to QUALIFY her numbers, and if that is the case it becomes hypocritical to just instantly say Serena cant be considered the best due to numbers. If Court isnt considered the best by hardly anyone due to numbers, then it is obvious not all about numbers. Meanwhile if one wants to make it all about numbers then concede Court as the GOAT, but you cant have it both ways. As I already mentioned Graf is not the best from numbers in practically any sense, even with the benefit of her biggest rival stabbed. BTW not everyone regards Graf as the GOAT. Many have always rated Navratilova over her, and now many rate Serena as the GOAT as well.
     
  41. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Only Graf and Navratilova can be called the GOAT. No one else comes close.
     
  42. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Obviously not as the numbers all say Court, and the opinions of many experts (which have to be respected if we are to disregard straightforward numbers and facts) now say Serena.
     
  43. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    They're all American and biased. And give me the actual quotes, don't just go around speaking for them.
     
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Never heard about Lenglen,Mills,Connolly and Margaret Court?
     
  45. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    But that was my point. I never claimed Graf was the greatest. I'm just saying that Graf is better than Serena historically, therefore if anybody is greater than Graf they're automatically better than Serena. I'm just saying that Serena cannot be called the greatest. Navratilova, for example has a good claim to be the greatest womens player ever. Not even going to touch Court.
     
  46. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    I agree, no GOAT. Greatest of their respective eras yes, but no GOAT.
     
  47. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Funny, when the experts all say that Federer is the GOAT, you disagree.

    :roll:
     
  48. SoBad

    SoBad Legend

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    Richard Gasquet is one of the most talented players of all time. It is unfortunate that his rivals and adversaries used their Swiss and German connections to pressure the Florida prosecutors into making a federal case out of Gasquet kissing a girl at a party. People should be free to kiss at parties without fear of malicious prosecution on frivolous trumped-up charges.
     
  49. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    As expected, you cannot produce a list of majority opinion, as it does not exist, not to mention players who have flip-flopped on the matter over the years.

    Federer simply lacked the ability to show concentrated dominance over the field during a single season of majors like Laver, so he's a successful player, but not in the serious conversation of the greatest.

    ...and to borrow your own words--now used against those Fed fans---for years using the limp defense "he won three that year, and could have..."


    Shoulda, woulda, coulda means nothing to the long recognized standard of supreme accomplishment.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  50. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
    Messages:
    3,026
    Location:
    Basel/Switzerland
    Santoro is the GMOAT!
     

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