Will Nadal surpass Agassi?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by President, Oct 23, 2009.

  1. President

    President Legend

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,066
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    As rivals to the dominant player of their era, both of these players have much in common. Do you think Nadal can surpass Agassi's achievements?
     
    #1
  2. Absolutely- Not.
    Imo Agassi will always be a better player, Agassis was competing (and won) against 3 different eras/generation on top-players, Nadal will never be able to do that.
    They both have Olympic Gold Medals, Agassi 8 GS vs Nadals 6, Agassi 17 MS-titles vs Nadals 15, Agassi spent longer time as no 1, but Agassi is the 2nd player of ll time who has the most QF (or better) in GS, Nadal will never come close to that and Agassi won 60 titles, Nadal has 36 and will never ever reach 60.
     
    #2
  3. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    Already has. Much better player. Much better rival. Dominant on his own surface. He is only 23 and has just a couple more tournaments to win to surpass Agassi. I love Agassi but he never dominated. Nadal may be 2 but I'd say he was dominant too
     
    #3
  4. stoutman11

    stoutman11 New User

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2007
    Messages:
    67
    this is a good question/topic. I would say at the end of Nadals career he will fall slightly short of Agassi. The main reason i would say is not because of lack of skill or talent but because Andre will have/had the much longer career he was consistently good for a long time. I do think Rafa will match him in Grand slams though.
     
    #4
  5. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,318
    Nadal beat Federer to win all his majors, Agassi was more the right guy in the place. Nadal is better than Agassi.
     
    #5
  6. President

    President Legend

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,066
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Personally, I think it would be a certainty but Nadal's injuries can cause his career to be worse than it could be.

    Nadal is definitely much more focused, just as talented, and is already close in accomplishments despite being more than 10 years younger than Agassi was at the end of his career.
     
    #6
  7. tuk

    tuk Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    206
    For sure he will, he is only 23 and is only two GS and two MS-titles away...
    IMO Nadal is a better player anyways...
     
    #7
  8. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    13,916


    Didn't I say this yet you disagreed with me?
     
    #8
  9. President

    President Legend

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,066
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    You really think Nadal can't win 2 more GS and MS?
     
    #9
  10. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,318
    No. I disagreed with you on Agassi's Wimbledon win, I said Agassi's Wimbledon win was fully deserved because he beat excellent grass courters like Goran and Becker, I never said Agassi didn't get lucky elsewhere.
     
    #10
  11. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    Agree. Nadal has never had a gimme slam like fed agassi and others. He's had to beat fed for every one! If you think about that he could easily have zero
     
    #11
  12. 2 more ms-titles? Sure. 2 more slams? No.
    But Agassi had so many other achievments as i wrote in my 1st post in this thread. Agassi is a legend.
     
    #12
  13. President

    President Legend

    Joined:
    May 18, 2009
    Messages:
    7,066
    Location:
    Philadelphia
    Nadal is already a legend at the age of 23. He has a dominant H2H against the player many consider to be the GOAT. He is already in the running for best Clay Courter of all time, and will almost certainly be so by the end of his career. He was the first man since Borg to win the French-Wimbledon double, and the first man to hold GS titles simultaneously on all three surfaces.

    Don't discount the guy just because you don't like him.
     
    #13
  14. You are right, i dont like him. And i dont discount him either, this my opinion. He will never be considered as good as Agassi imo. Right now, far from it! And i think we have seen the best of him already.
     
    #14
  15. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2009
    Messages:
    9,745
    Nadal will surpass Agassi if he stays healthy and keeps playing for another 4-5 years. Nadal followed Federer across 3 surfaces at a young age,Agassi had success against Sampras only on slower surfaces. Nadal didn't just go away for a period like Agassi did,he actually stayed behind Federer for about 4 years,being the player with the most weeks at nr.2. And you have to remember that Federer is the probable GOAT. While Rafa can certainly reach and even surpass Agassi's nr. of GS and MS,he will have a much harder time beating his Calendar Slam and weeks at nr.1.

    Nadal had to go through Federer in every GS of his career and took the nr.1 away from him for almost a year(before injury did him in).That's a huge achivement in itself. Many agree that Nadal motivated Federer to better himself and let's face it,Federer's story would have been less glorious without an arch-rival by his side. When so many great former players say so many great things about Rafa you know he is the real deal.

    Steffi Graf's statement is my favourite:"If you watch Rafael Nadal play tennis, you can only respond with amazement and great admiration. He is an incredible athlete with so much discipline, so much concentration and someone who likes to put a lot of passion into every point.
    Words fail to come out of me to describe his game appropriately. I’ve rarely seen anyone who approaches a ball with so much attention. With such passion and joy that it makes it great fun to watch him. With him, you can associate everything that makes tennis so beautiful.”

    If Nadal retires tomorrow he is already a living legend and has accomplished way more than anyone in his generation. You could make a point for Rafa being the Federer of his generation,his peers being quite a ways behind him,with djoker having 1 GS and 4 MS + 1 TMC, murray with 0 GS and 4 MS while Rafa has 6 GS and 15 MS.

    I don't care if people like him or not,but he is the only reason that tennis wasn't totally boring during Fed's domination. He was the one that showed the young guns that Fed is not invincible and that carried through to this peers,like djoker and murray. He was the one that started the rivalry which has defined our sport in the last 4-5 years or so and he has always had kind words for his rival,Roger Federer,even being there for him in Fed's worst moment(the crying in AO ceremony).
     
    #15
  16. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    689
    fully agree. IMHO, Nadal is better even if he does not win 2 more slams (which I think he will).
     
    #16
  17. 8pNADAL

    8pNADAL Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
    Messages:
    381
    nadal has much bigger fish to fry than agassi
     
    #17
  18. coloskier

    coloskier Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    5,580
    I guess you forgot about a guy named Sampras who kept Agassi from winning quite a few more majors. On HC and grass Agassi's record against Sampras was abysmal. But for the length of career expected from both Nadal and Agassi, Agassi is the winner by a mile.
     
    #18
  19. GasquetGOAT

    GasquetGOAT Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,372
    Yeah if he manages to win 3 more slams including a USO...
     
    #19
  20. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    Unfortunately, all of Nadal's victories have come by way of injured opponents.
     
    #20
  21. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    11,518
    Agreed.It is exactly that.They all have asterisks next to them.:lol:
     
    #21
  22. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida

    Yup, and I'm not talking about just ATP victories. I'm talking about juniors, challengers, furtures, etc.
     
    #22
  23. Shaolin

    Shaolin Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    4,192
    Location:
    Kansas
    Nadal will not win the US Open so that has to be taken into consideration. Agassi's career slam is impressive.
     
    #23
  24. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,318
    Nadal doesn't need the "career slam" to pass Agassi he just needs 1 more good year where he win 1-2 slams.
     
    #24
  25. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,904
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    Agassi played in a time where greatness wasn't determined by who was better from the baseline, period. That's how it is these days. Agassi was a returner/baseliner back when S&V was still dominating the USO and Wimbledon. Yet he won each of those titles, the USO twice. Nadal would have been your typical dirtballer back in the 90's. Probably would have won a few FO's but never even would have made the 2nd week at the USO or Wimbledon. The racquet and string technology have made much of Nadal's (and Federer's for that matter) career possible IMO.
     
    #25
  26. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,904
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    So if he equalls Agassi's slam total, but doesn't win the career slam like Agassi, he has somehow surpassed him? I don't think you quite understand the importance of the career slam. Only 3 men have done it. How many guys have more then 6 major wins in the open era? More then 3.
     
    #26
  27. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,318
    Agassi won most of his slams 99-02 when all the best S&V were gone, Sampras was past him prime, Becker gone, Edberg gone and guys like Courier (who owned him) gone. I don't see the huge difference between Agassi and Courier infact Courier won his slams in a far tougher period 91-93 than Agassi 99-02.
     
    #27
  28. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,318
    McEnroe, Connors and Lendl don't have the "career slam" but all had better career's than Agassi, Nadal doesn't need it to pass Agass either.
     
    #28
  29. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    Sampras kept Agassi from winning majors but Federer did not keep Nadal from winning majors. Advantage NAdal!
     
    #29
  30. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,904
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    S&V might have been on it's way out, but those guys were still winning majors. Rafter had won the USO twice around that time. The 2001 Wimbledon final was contested between two serve and volleyers. Even old man Sampras was making the USO final.

    This is besides the point. Look at the guys who were making the semis of Wimbledon in the 90's. Goran, Becker, Edberg, Sampras, Rafter, Agassi. Doesn't Agassi kind of stand out there? That should tell you that Agassi had a different field to compete against. He was a baseliner in a S&V world. Guys like Nadal, topspin heavy Spaniards, they weren't making the Wimbledon semis in the 90's, let alone making two finals and winning another.
     
    #30
  31. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    It doesn't matter what the style was back then. What matters is who is across the net. Even Agassi says that.
     
    #31
  32. Joe Pike

    Joe Pike Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2005
    Messages:
    3,309

    Marry someone like Steffi?

    Doubtful ...
     
    #32
  33. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,904
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    According to you. To some people like myself, accomplishments trump all. I don't know what accolades you could point too to show that Connors and McEnroe had better careers then Agassi. That's just mind boggling to me.
     
    #33
  34. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,904
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    If you could clarify what your point is. I don't get it.
     
    #34
  35. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    11,518
    Gimme slam? Why dont you try winning one and then talk? Besides,if Fed had 'gimme' slams then he isnt that great a player in the first place which means beating him wasnt a great deal at all..so that indirectly makes Nadal's slams of about as much worth as you claim Agassi's and Fed's are.
     
    #35
  36. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    You were talking about what Nadal's results would be if he played in the 90s. It has no relevance to this discussion. His competition and success in the 200s is all that matters.
     
    #36
  37. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    uh no. Most of Fed's slams were not gimmes. None of Nadal's were gimmes. A few of Fed's were. Sorry but it's true.

    Your logic only holds if I say that all of Fed's slams were gimmes, which is clearly not the case.
     
    #37
  38. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    Agreed. Agassi is a great player of course but he peaked and won most of his slams during that weaker interim period between the Sampras/Edberg/Becker/Courier era and the Federer/Nadal era. In fairness he completely owned Becker so Becker would not have been too much problem anyway (it was a matchup thing I guess), but you also have to add surfaces specialists like Bruguera, Ivanisevic, Krajicek, Muster, who Agassi most times would have a very tough time beating on their preferred surfaces (Ivanisevic at Wimbledon 92 is the only time I think he ever did this for any of those). Against the tougher field of players he struggled to make a real impact other than late 94-95 and to a lesser degree 90-92 where he was in 4 slam finals but lost 3 of the 4. I feel for a guy like Courier who had it much tougher, during his prime years always seemingly running into a top Sampras, peak Edberg, or Bruguera or Muster on clay in slams. Yet despite that he still won 4 slams and was the dominant player briefly. I doubt Agassi wins anymore than Courier was the same competition. Plus that when Agassi was pretty good he was being mauled by Courier, and Courier's win streak stretched to 1995 when Agassi probably played his peak year of tennis ever, and Courier was already slightly past his prime. Again could be a matchup thing but still.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
    #38
  39. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    The main reasons those three guys rank higher than Agassi is they far surpass him as far as dominance, consistency (Agassi is horrible in this category compared to other greats), quality of competition they won their slams against, and success vs main rivals. Nadal himself clearly surpasses Agassi in all those areas as well. His 2008 easily trumps Agassi's 1999, his huge run of time consecutively ranked atleast #2 in the World speaks for itself, his dominance at the French Open and clay in general trumps anything Agassi has had anywhere or on any surface. Consistency I dont even have to bother with. Nadal won 5 of his 6 slams vs Federer in the final, the other in the semis, and also beat Djokovic (four times but three if we exclude pre prime Djokovic at 06 FO), Murray (once), to win his slams. Nadal doesnt have a losing record vs any top player. Agassi at various points in his unusual career was owned by Sampras, Federer, Courier, and Lendl.
     
    #39
  40. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    great post!!!
     
    #40
  41. RyanRF

    RyanRF Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2008
    Messages:
    608
    So basically, at 23 Nadal (8 years pro) has almost accomplished everything Agassi had at 36 (20 years pro). You've just proven the opposite of your argument.
     
    #41
  42. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    8,598
    Exactly... Nadal's success is a derivative of Federer's because most of Nadal's success has been against Federer
     
    #42
  43. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    So he beat no one to get to those finals and beat no one at all the Masters he won?
     
    #43
  44. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    11,518
    Yeah..I suppose you didnt read the posts of people you call 'enligtened' ,you dont read your own posts and you have the nerve to accuse others. . But then you are fangirl or a fanboy so I'm not surprised.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2009
    #44
  45. Ledigs

    Ledigs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    4,074
    Location:
    NY
    My point was that Nadal had no gimme slams while Fed had one or two and Agassi had several.
     
    #45
  46. anointedone

    anointedone Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    4,655
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario
    You seem to overrate Agassi's place in history. Only the most biased of Agassi fanboys have him even in the top 10, and many have him outside the top 15. In the Open Era alone he is not only far behind the obvious Laver, Rosewall, Sampras, Federer, Borg, but also clearly behind Connors, Lendl, McEnroe. To say Nadal would never surpass Agassi is basically saying he would never catch Lendl or McEnroe, as doing so would already put him over Agassi.
     
    #46
  47. Matt H.

    Matt H. Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    1,279
    Agassi has one of the most complete career resumes you can have:

    Career Grand Slam
    Gold Medal
    Davis Cup title
    Year End #1
    Record Holder for Masters Series (which, imo, are tougher tournaments than slams if you break down the competition round by round)
    Of the Master's titles, he won 7 of the 9 slots.

    He was Paris and Hamburg away from winning everything of any kind of importance on the tour.

    He also made 4 consecutive finals and won 3 out of the 4 (lost 99 Wimbledon)


    With that said, it's still a bit sad when you think of all the years he wasted and the potential.

    People are biased because of Agassi's personality and all he's done for the game. The reality is that Nadal is pretty close to Agassi's stats, and he's only 23. If he can make it to the age of 30, he will have surpassed him.
     
    #47
  48. DRII

    DRII Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Messages:
    6,611
    Agassi will most likely have a much longer carreer than Rafa. But Agassi was not consistently good. What was amazing about Agassi is his almost super-natural rebounds - from out of the top 100 in the world to #1.

    Talent wise, i think they are both very close to one another, and i love Agassi. But Rafa might have the edge because he managed his success competing with, and close to dominating, Roger Federer who many consider GOAT. Agassi dealt with some impressive opponents as well (Sampras, McEnroe, Becker, etc) but many of his slam finals were against much lesser opponents (not Agassi's fault but nevertheless is the case).
     
    #48
  49. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    11,518
    This.I'd say Andre was one of those guys who certainly had it in him to get atleast upto 10 slams.Its just sad he wasted himself ,the way he did.
     
    #49
  50. Cesc Fabregas

    Cesc Fabregas Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    8,318
    Disagree. If he didn't take a holiday in his career 96-98 he wouldn't have had the longetivity he did 99-03, so his slam count is about right.
     
    #50

Share This Page