Will we ever see man as the greatest ever on every surface like Graf is among women?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by grafselesfan, Nov 28, 2009.

  1. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    On the womens side Steffi Graf is not only undisputably the greatest female player of all time, but probably the greatest women player of all time on each individual surface as well. Will we ever see a man duplicate Graf's feat and become the greatest player ever not only overall, but on each individual surface as well.
     
    #1
  2. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,902
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    No. There is way to much competition in the men's game to allow that to happen.
     
    #2
  3. sanchino

    sanchino Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Location:
    USA
    I think there already have been men as great, they just had to deal with more competition. Even Graf was prone to loose on occasion to lesser players like Sanches-Vicario and Sabatini
     
    #3
  4. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    8,598
    No, men's tennis is too deep for that to happen.
     
    #4
  5. JeMar

    JeMar Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,698
    No, the men's game is much deeper.
     
    #5
  6. flyinghippos101

    flyinghippos101 Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Messages:
    5,311
    No, the men's field is deeper
     
    #6
  7. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,902
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    You have to take into consideration that the men are playing best of 5, and women are playing best of 3 at the slams. For the women, the slams are more like a vacation then a special test.
     
    #7
  8. Dimitrov_Fan

    Dimitrov_Fan New User

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2009
    Messages:
    79
    No, the men's field has too much depth.
     
    #8
  9. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,356
    Nope.

    And Navratilova was IMO a better grasscourter than Graf.
     
    #9
  10. JeMar

    JeMar Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,698
    Oh no, you did not just go there.


    Prepare yourself. Grafselesfan takes no prisoners.
     
    #10
  11. Outbeyond

    Outbeyond Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    8,074
    Location:
    New Joisey, USA
    That was especially mean....:)
     
    #11
  12. Cantankersore

    Cantankersore Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2009
    Messages:
    513
    Evert was better on clay... and Greg Norman.
     
    #12
  13. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    I agree Navratilova was a great grasscourter. Certainly worthy of 2nd greatest of all time on that surface behind Graf. Graf leads 2-1 in Wimbledon finals proving her superiority and only didnt break Martina's record Wimbledon titles due to her injuries which prevented her from winning 9 or more, 97 and 98 for sure, and a contender in 99 and 2000 as well likely.

    2nd greatest ever on clay behind Graf is either Seles, Connolly, or Evert. Henin could reach that point someday though.

    2nd greatest ever on hard courts behind Graf is Serena, Evert, Court, or Connolly.
     
    #13
  14. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,825
    What a cheap and dishonest way to present your argument.
    No sale.
     
    #14
  15. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    Yeah you are probably right. It would take a field as weak as it was from 1998-2006 and a great player in their primes that whole time frame. Of course Federer was only in his prime a few of those years, and Sampras at the tail end of his prime for 1 or 2 of those. Since the best players to have all of their prime during that time frame were guys like Hewitt, Safin, or Kuerten you were never going to get someone fully capatilizing on it.
     
    #15
  16. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    26,020
    Location:
    Weak era
    In 2005 and 2006 you already had Nadal at the FO who would be tough obstacle for any great HC/grasscourt player on clay.Men's and women's tennis is just different so I don't expect it to happen but chances are bigger that it happens in today's homogenizied conditions so you never know.
     
    #16
  17. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    Yeah you are right. And Sampras from 1998-2000 was still nearly unbeatable at Wimbledon, despite being on a bit of decline overall. So maybe I should change that to 2001-2004.
     
    #17
  18. cuddles26

    cuddles26 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    936
    The overrated Graf cow is not the greatest ever on any surface, let alone all of them. Oh wait, she is the greatest ever on the following surfaces- being devoid of compassion or remorse, tax evasion and fraud, excuse making, and discrediting opponents. The greatest ever on all 4 major surfaces- Steffi Graf.
     
    #18
  19. JeMar

    JeMar Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,698
    This was actually pretty funny. Well-written too.
     
    #19
  20. Outbeyond

    Outbeyond Legend

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2009
    Messages:
    8,074
    Location:
    New Joisey, USA
    cuddles is growing on me.
     
    #20
  21. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,902
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    +1..........
     
    #21
  22. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,902
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    And especially true....
     
    #22
  23. MuseFan

    MuseFan Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2009
    Messages:
    706
    How can Steffi be the greatest on ALL surfaces when she didn't win the most French Opens(Evert with 7), Wimbledons(Martina with 9). Be thankful she won the most career slams(4). She's the greatest OVERALL women's player.
     
    #23
  24. JeMar

    JeMar Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,698
    You see, being devoid of compassion and remorse is actually two different surfaces. Being devoid of compassion is like European clay, while being devoid of remorse is more like Har-tru clay.
     
    #24
  25. Al Czervik

    Al Czervik Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2007
    Messages:
    1,039
    Graf wouldn't have been half the player if that nutcase hadn't put a shank in Seles' back.
     
    #25
  26. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2007
    Messages:
    15,774
    Location:
    VA Beach
    Umm...I'm just gonna say no to the OP...and umm...I'm just gonna leave now. Have fun kids! :D
     
    #26
  27. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    The purpose of this thread is not to needlessly debate and discuss the obvious truths and facts about Graf, but given the example of how a female can be greatest ever on all surfaces, discuss if the possability exists for a man to do so anytime in the future. It seems most feel that is not doable for a man, which was the intent of this thread to discuss.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
    #27
  28. TheFifthSet

    TheFifthSet Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2009
    Messages:
    2,356
    Fair points, but remember that Navratilova was in her 30's when Steffi beat her at Wimby, and both matches were close . . . also, I don't see why we should reward her extra slams for being injured. Injuries are a part of the game.
     
    #28
  29. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,902
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    Are we reading the same thread?
     
    #29
  30. MuseFan

    MuseFan Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2009
    Messages:
    706
    I don't think it's possible for a man to win the most GS at each of them. Because the skill set required to say win 8 Wimbledons takes away from the ability to win 7 French Opens. It's impossible.
     
    #30
  31. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    I am aware of the age but Navratilova's reached all but 4 of her 31 slam finals from 1982-1990, and won all but 2 of her slam titles in these years (the 81 AO ended in early January). Thus that was her prime. Her prime was not the typical age of most players as she was a late bloomer. Most great women begin their prime as teenager and end it by their late 20s or sooner. Martina however didnt even join the tour until she 19. Her prime began in her mid 20s and extended to her early 30s. Also while the two Graf wins went 3 sets the final scorelines were not really that close: 5-7, 6-2, 6-1 in 88 with Martina losing 12 of the last 13 games and her last 6 service games; and 6-2, 6-7, 6-1 in 89.

    Injuries are part of the game it is true. I am not saying Steffi should be considered as having more Wimbledon titles than Martina. She should be considered as having 7 and Martina as having 9 as is, and Martina fully deserves her record as having most Wimbledon titles. However injuries are more a reflection on luck rather than actual ability, so when evaluating actual ability, not strictly achievements, it makes sense to consider such things, atleast for me.
     
    #31
  32. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    Sorry a typo.
     
    #32
  33. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2007
    Messages:
    15,774
    Location:
    VA Beach
    Hmm...interesting point.
     
    #33
  34. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    The funny thing is Borg had that kind of extreme dominance on grass and clay. Granted he isnt considered the greatest grass courter of all time by many, but had he continued he might have been considered the greatest ever on both surfaces (although far from certain with McEnroe now a problem). Yet obviously he doesnt even scrape the surface of the greatest hard court players of all time, so the fulfillment of being the greatest ever on each surface was never possible for him, but he showed dominance of atleast the extremes of clay and grass is possible for the right person. Even easier perhaps in the future now with the slowed down grass, as long as there arent two players like Federer or Nadal stopping each other, or if that player in the future is so formidable they are able to overcome even that type of foe.
     
    #34
  35. markwillplay

    markwillplay Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2007
    Messages:
    1,256
    wow, I saw Graph all the time growing up..I remember when Seles came along....Graph was overmatched in every way. Hate to tell you, as good as Graph was, Seles owned her in the big matches in both of their primes. Sorry.
     
    #35
  36. sanchino

    sanchino Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Location:
    USA
    It was a great accomplishment thet Bjorn Borg won 6 French and 5 Wimbledon titles. If he had not walked away from the game when he did, he may have won more. He certainly could have been a contender at those events for a few more years.
     
    #36
  37. edmondsm

    edmondsm Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,902
    Location:
    In an in between place.
    Just to confirm. Are you saying Graf is the greatest on every surface, or the greatest all-surface player?
     
    #37
  38. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    I am a big fan of both Graf and Seles. However Graf leads 10-5 head to head and 6-3 in slams. Seles has never destroyed Graf in a match, while Graf has destroyed Seles in matches on several occasions. Seles has never beaten Graf on a medium or faster surface, the only surfaces she has beaten her are rebound ace and clay. The 2 times she played Graf on grass she averaged 1 game per the 2 matches and 4 sets. Graf has beaten Graf on all surfaces. In Seles's best year ever she squeeked past Graf 10-8 in the final set on her own best surface and Graf's worst, and lost 6-2, 6-1 on Graf's best surface and her own worst. Even while dominating the womens game she never could dominate Graf head to head, the way Nadal was able to do to Federer for years. The stabbing was a shame as Monica was certainly on her way to a much higher place in tennis history than she currently occupies, and would have continued a great rivalry with Graf, but without a doubt Graf is still the superior player.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
    #38
  39. sanchino

    sanchino Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    434
    Location:
    USA
    I agree with that. I think that guy that stabbed Seles thought so too.
     
    #39
  40. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    The greatest of all time on every surface amongst the women IMO.
     
    #40
  41. darthpwner

    darthpwner Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,039
    You can't compare men and women. Men are too good.
     
    #41
  42. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,408
    I don't see any reason something like that couldn't happen. It just hasn't yet.
     
    #42
  43. Camilio Pascual

    Camilio Pascual Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    1,825
    You really can't prove that and I can make a good argument that may not be true.
    There are things that can be done to prevent injuries concerning:
    technique
    conditioning
    hydration
    rest
    not overplaying
    An inability to do these things as well as another player will put one at greater risk of injury.
     
    #43
  44. hewittboy

    hewittboy Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    549
    Such an egotistical thread.
     
    #44
  45. ninman

    ninman Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2007
    Messages:
    3,898
    Federer was pretty unlucky not to do it already. Only Nadal stopped him from dominating every surface.
     
    #45
  46. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2009
    Messages:
    2,544
    If it wasn't for Nadal, fed would've had like 20+ slams, 5 french opens and 3 calendar slams. It would've been hard to argue Graf > Fed in that scenario. Fed is a once in a lifetime talent. So who knows..
     
    #46
  47. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    Even if he won 5 straight French Opens without Nadal though I dont think he would be considered the greatest ever on that surface as it is just clear ability wise he isnt that calibre on clay. Plus without Nadal his competition looking at who is remaining wouldnt be considered that strong on clay. Plus he has had losses in big Masters events on clay the last 5 years to guys like Volandri, Stepanek, Wawrinka. He has struggled alot at the French with guys like Nalbandian, Haas, Monfils, and others. So he wouldnt be considered the greatest ever on clay even without Nadal, no way.
     
    #47
  48. JeMar

    JeMar Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    6,698
    Your argument works against Graf on clay and on grass. She's better on clay than Martina, and she's better on grass than Evert, but she's not as good as either of them on their best surface, no matter what the records might say.

    I don't get the point of this thread, it's basic premise is flawed and extremely short-sighted and biased.
     
    #48
  49. grafselesfan

    grafselesfan Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2009
    Messages:
    3,594
    What did what I say have to do with Graf. Graf ability wise can compare favorably to any women in history on any surface. Federer ability wise, dominance wise, overall performance wise, wouldnt compare at all to say Borg on clay even if Nadal never existed, with the reasons I cited serving as obvious proof of that. His record overall wouldnt be as good on clay either since unlike Nadal and Borg he would not have completely dominated events like Rome and Monte Carlo even without Nadal around as his losses I mentioned prove.

    Anyway since you bring it up with Graf it is just the opposite of what you are saying. Her record isnt as great as Navratilova on grass because of injuries denying her an additional 2 or more Wimbledon titles at the end of her career, but ability wise IMO she is every bit as great or a little better. Her record isnt as great as Evert on clay, but IMO she would beat Evert on clay with both in their primes, and she just faced a many times tougher clay court field than Evert (the 70s fields on clay were the biggest joke ever). Her record is the greatest ever overall, and the greatest overall on hard courts. So if it were just based on achievements she would be merely the greatest women player of all time, greatest ever on hard courts, and 2nd greatest ever on clay behind Evert, and 2nd greatest ever on grass behind Martina. However her actual ability goes beyond her achievements which do not do full justice to her ability, and thus she is also the greastest ever on grass and clay inspite of only the 2nd greatest achievements ever on those 2 surfaces.
     
    #49
  50. cuddles26

    cuddles26 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    936
    This thread is retarded. It is nothing more than an excuse for the OP to pimp up her hero Steffi Graf to the heavens, while pretending to be starting an objective topic on the current mens game.

    Graf fans are even more arrogant than Federer or Nadal fans. It isnt even good enough to be considered the greatest ever overall and maybe the greatest ever on 1 or 2 of the 3 or 4 surfaces as most consider her (already way overrated I think), but no she has to be the greatest ever on ever single surface too. Not only that, the undisputed greatest ever on every single surface, and shame on anyone who even considers anyone else. Blech, if grafselesfan is an example of typical Graf fans thank goodness she is retired, as otherwise they would be swarming this forum today and they would even make *******s look humble.
     
    #50

Share This Page