WORLD NO. 1 (by year)

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by hoodjem, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Lendl 1989


    Lendl 1989 was another occasion. Interesting Note: the only tournament losses that Lendl had the whole of 1989 were to the eventual winners of the tournaments. Don't know if that has ever happened before or since
     
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nasty won a few Masters Cup as well as USO in that time
     
  3. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    ATP Ranking points--

    1 Djokovic, Novak (SRB) 12,920
    2 Federer, Roger (SUI) 10,265
     
  4. Gizo

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    1989 was an interesting year. Obviusly Becker produced the best standard of tennis that year, and more importantly had the best set of achievements. Thus he was the clear player of the year.

    However Lendl's incredibly good day-in day-out consistency that year, meant that he had a pretty strong ranking point lead over Becker at the end of the season. In fact some posters here have shown that even if the ranking systems from the 90s, 2000-2008 or 2009 onwards were used, Lendl still would have had a clear lead in all scenarios.

    It's interesting that Edberg in 1990 and Kuerten in 2000 both finished as the year end no. 1 in those respective seasons, despite suffering 1st round defeats at 2 of the majors. Edberg fell at the first hurdle to Bruguera at RG and Volkov in New York in 1990, while Guga suffered the same fate against Portas in Melbourne and Arthurs in New York in 2000.
     
  5. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    This is why it is important to do well not only in points ranking, but in the major tournaments as well. Otherwise, it becomes a less than spectacular year, even if you get the #1 ranking.
    Finishing number one is not worth the same in stature every year. Some years are better than others, therefore you cannot simply add up the number of years a player finishes first to rate the player.
     
  6. newmark401

    newmark401 Professional

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    So, how many ATP points did Joshua Pim, for example, finish with in the years for which he was ranked number one?

    And what about Rod Laver in 1962, the year in which he won the Grand Slam for the first time? (Ken Rosewall is listed as the "world number one" for 1962 in the list on page one of this thread.)
     
  7. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    ???????????????????
    We all know there was no ATP in 1962 and before, and thus no ATP computer rankings. Back then rankings were compiled by mere human beings with favorites, biases, prejudices, and subjectively poor memories. We now have a better system.

    Do you have a point that we do not know?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  8. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Did Trabert ever have a year as no. 1?

    Has he ever factored into GOAT discussions?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2012
  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I have Trabert as the number 1 amateur player in 1953 and 1955, and narrowly behind Drobny in 1954. As a professional, he did very well to win his 2 French Pro titles.
     
  11. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Not Rosewall in 1953?
     
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    hoodjem, I rank Trabert, Rosewall and Seixas together No.1 in 1953.
     
  13. Dan Lobb

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  14. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    They all won majors that year, but Hoad won five tournaments just below major rank, and was clearly world number one in December.
    The Davis Cup was the premiere event in the game at that time, and ONLY HOAD was offered a pro contract at year's end (the final proof of status).
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, you forget to tell us if Hoad was also best in 1947 and 1432!!!

    Hoad was No.5 in 1953.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  16. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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  17. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    There are always different opinions about players and opinions vary. Rosewall had a great backhand, arguably the greatest ever but of course not everyone who played him thought he had the greatest backhand they ever face although it often seemed that way. Trabert had a fabulous backhand and probably one of the all time greatest also but I've never seen it argued as the greatest backhand ever as Rosewall's or Budge's was.

    Arthur Ashe's ranked Rosewall's backhand the best along with Rod Laver.

    If Hoad said that about Trabert's backhand, that's fine but I'm sure Rosewall's backhand was very important in so many of Rosewall's victories over Hoad.
     
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Thanks, pc1 for your statement. I do know that Trabert's backhand was fantastic but still I would rate Rosewall's and Budge's and Borg's and Laver's and Connors' backhand a bit stronger.

    Could it be that Lew did not want to praise Ken's backhand that much because he was his friend and doubles partner to avoid the impression he was biased?

    I also rank Kovacs' and Nüsslein's backhand very high and maybe above Trabert's.
     
  19. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Number five? You have a great sense of humour, my friend.
    His record against Trabert: 2 and 0
    Rosewall: 2 and 0
    Need we continue?
     
  20. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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  21. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Read the than "official" rankings of Lance Tingay (in the Collins encyclopedia).

    Hoad failed at the majors.

    Reading your posts I lose my humour totally...
     
  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Bobby, I always imagined a Tilden vs Rosewall match on wood or supreme
    Who would win it?
     
  24. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    That would be a heck of a match.
     
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Hard to decide. Tilden beat Vines in their first match. Rosewall won nine of his 23 majors indoors (wood) plus the two Dallas finals indoors.
     
  26. Kirijax

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    Nice to see Wilander's 1983 respected. He wasn't as flashy as McEnroe and "only" had an Australian Open title where he beat both McEnroe and Lendl.
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    1983 Wilander,e xcept on clay, was below mac´s level.John dominated th two biggest indoor events, which were considered far above the Ao in those days, although Mats win at Melbourne was really impressive.

    Mac also took the world´s premiere title, defeating again Lendl in a one sided semifinal.I know Lewis was not a top player, but he played better than the rest and deserved to make it to the final day.

    In 1983, John Mc Enroe was the nº 1, and Connors , Wilander and Noah may share the nº 2 position.Maybe with Wilander a bit ahead of the other two.
     
  28. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    1983 non-sanctioned events

    In the other thread we were talking about how Connors won only 4 official events in 1983, but 9 non-sanctioned events.

    That gives him 13 titles of every kind, which puts him past Wilander's official total of 9 titles. Depending on whether Wilander won any non-sanctioned events, it's possible that Connors leads the year with 13 titles of every kind.

    He won one Slam event (USO). So did McEnroe (Wimbledon), and so did Wilander (AO).

    So if they each had one Slam victory, do Connors' 13 titles put him in the #1 spot for the year?

    We usually think of either McEnroe or Wilander as the #1 this year, but we've almost never talked about the non-sanctioned events, and Connors won a ton of them in '83. McEnroe and Lendl each won only 1 non-sanctioned event, and each man won 7 official titles.

    Here are the lists of non-sanctioned events:

    Connors - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_...ther_Singles_titles_.28with_an_8_man_Field.29

    McEnroe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McEnroe_career_statistics#Other_singles_titles

    Lendl - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_L....26_special_events.29_singles_finals_.2862.29

    Wilander's Wikipedia page is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mats_W...Singles_titles_listed_by_ATP_website_.2833.29. It does not say whether Mats played non-sanctioned events, but we know he played at least two, and lost to Connors in both of them (Newport Beach and Beaver Creek).
     
  29. Dan Lobb

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    Just to repeat for 1953 Amateur Rankings:
    1) Hoad 2) Trabert 3) Rosewall 4) Seixas
    Hoad held a 2 to 0 edge against Trabert and a 5 to 0 edge against Rosewall, won five important tournaments, won two Davis Cup final matches (the most important tennis event of the year), and was the only amateur offered a pro contract by Kramer for the 1954 pro tour.
    That looks like number one for the year.

    1954 Amateur Rankings:
    1) Drobny 2) Seixas 3) Trabert 4) Hoad 5) Rosewall

    1955 Amateur Rankings:
    1) Trabert 2) Hoad 3) Rosewall
    This ranking reflects the classic Davis Cup final match between Hoad and Trabert which drew over 10 million viewers and was NBC's first ever color broadcast

    1956 Amateur Rankings:
    1) Hoad 2) Rosewall 3) Davidson 4) Anderson 5) Cooper

    1957 Pro Rankings:
    1) Gonzales 2) Rosewall 3) Sedgman 4) Trabert

    1958 Pro Rankings:
    1) Hoad 2) Gonzales 3) Rosewall 4) Sedgman 5) Trabert 6) Segura
    This reflects Hoad's ranking as the number one money-winner, Ampol world championship, winner of the greatest match ever at Kooyong, and apparent edge against Gonzales when healthy.

    1959 Pro Rankings:
    1) Hoad 2) Gonzales 3) Rosewall 4) Sedgman 5) Trabert

    1960 Pro Rankings:
    1) Gonzales 2) Rosewall 3) Hoad 4) Olmedo

    1961 Pro Rankings:
    1) Rosewall 2) Gonzales 3) Hoad 4) Gimeno

    1962 Pro Rankings:
    1) Rosewall 2) Hoad 3) Gimeno

    1963 Pro Rankings:
    1) Rosewall 2) Hoad 3) Laver 4) Gimeno
    This ranking reflects Hoad's head-to-head edge against Laver.

    1964 Pro Rankings:
    1) Laver 2) Rosewall 3) Hoad 4) Gimeno
    This ranking reflects Hoad's win of the New Zealand Tour in February against Laver, Rosewall, and Anderson.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Mc Enroe wins Wimbledon,WCT and Masters. 3 of the top 6 events in that era.50%.No match, not even closed.

    Connors won a great USO title ( only a big name in his path, Lendl, while Teltscher and Scanlon were mere second fiddle) but failed at Wimbledon,Masters and had that ignominous defeat at RG against Vasselyn.

    Wilander did far better than Jimmy.He also reached the Masters semi but,besides winning the AO with two great wins over Mac and Lendl, reached the FO final.He also played the DC final.

    Jimmy was n1 3 in 1983 and he was nº 3 in 1984.He never got anybetter after his great 1982 season.
     
  31. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Funny Dan, your rankings become strange more and more. You have a selected view on the players' records: You only consider those Hoad results that are positive for your God, pardon GOAT. You neglect totally other players' achievements, especially Rosewall's.

    You rank Hoad ahead of Rosewall for all years from 1953 to 1956 even though the facts and experts contradict totally with the exception of 1956!

    In 1953 Rosewall won two majors, reached SFs at FH, reached QFs of Wimbledon, won the PSW tournament ("the fifth major") and won the deciding Davis Cup match. No way of ranking him behind Hoad.

    In 1954 Rosewall reached the final of Wimbledon (great match against Drobny), reached SFs at the Australian Champs., lost in five and reached SFs of US Champ.s. By the way, Tingay ranked Hoad only seventh...

    For 1960 you rank Olmedo fourth!?!? Maybe because he lost 0-6,0-6,3-6 to Rosewall at Wembley? I rank him eighth.

    Hoad in 1964 third? It's your masterpiece, of course! Your explanation is very revealing: Because Hoad won a small 4 man tour. Gonzalez and Gimeno were much stronger than Lew that year. Hoad finished sixth in the world tour...

    You rank Hoad first or second for most years from 1953 to 1963. It's really funny. Thanks a lot!

    Facit: Dan Lobb at his best...

    P.S.: Joe McCauley was busy to give a reasonable picture of the pro scene, but you distort his records as you also distort the amateur records, just to push your darling. You and TMF could be a genial double of misinterpreting tennis history!
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  32. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, I forgot to contradict your 1955 ranking.

    Hoad reached final of Australian Champ.s, Rosewall won it with great wins against Trabert and Hoad.

    Hoad reached QFs at Wimbledon, Rosewall reached SFs.

    Hoad did it to the Sfs of US Champ.s, Rosewall reached final and lost only to Trabert who had his best year.

    Hoad was 6:1 in Davis Cup, Rosewall was 11:0.

    Your conclusion: Hoad was better than Rosewall....
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  33. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    1933

    I know that Crawford was only one set away from completing the calendar Grand Slam, however, was he really better that Hans Nüsslein would won the World Pro Championship that year? Not saying you are wrong.....but were the amateurs really better than the Pro's at that point?
     
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    timnz, even as a Nüsslein admirer I would say that Crawford and Perry were stronger than Nüsslein and Tilden that year. But it's hard to decide.

    Tilden beat strong von Cramm clearly on clay in 1934. Von Cramm beat Nüsslein the same year in four sets (but Nüsslein was ill by a cold).

    I would say that on clay Nüsslein was the strongest in 1933, Crawford on fast surfaces.
     
  35. timnz

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    Good reflections Bobby.
     
  36. Dan Lobb

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    Bobby, let's not get carried away again.
    Look at hth between Hoad and Rosewall. FIVE TO NOTHING for Hoad in 1953, and Hoad was THE KINGPIN of the Davis Cup final, where Rosewall was clobbered by Trabert (or did you overlook that match?).
    TWO TO NOTHING against Trabert in 1953, including the key Davis Cup match, and, as you know, Davis Cup was the NUMBER ONE event in the tennis world.
    In 1954, Hoad and Rosewall played a best-of-five sets Eastern Grasscourts final, a straight sets win for Hoad. Look at the results.
    It's great that Rosewall reached some final in 1954, but which majors did he win? I do not recall any that year, and HE LOST AT ROLAND GARROS TO DAVIDSON, a player Hoad owned on clay.
    Joe McCauley somehow excluded the New Zealand four-man in 1964, the only tour featuring the three great Aussies together, and even an over-the-hill Hoad had too much for the others.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  37. Dan Lobb

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    Bobby, I am surprised that you forgot to contradict me again.
    I hope that you will not be offended if I contradict you, either.
    The 1955 Australian was played immediately after the 1954 Davis Cup final, which explains why Trabert was entered in the tournament in the first place. It was a severe anti-climax to the Cup final, and Trabert's only slam loss of the year. Hoad was still slumping.
    The big match of the year was the 1955 Davis Cup match between Hoad and Trabert, which drew over 10 million TV viewers, and the Vice-President of the U.S.A., Richard M. Nixon, to present the Cup. The very first color broadcast by NBC.
    Hoad defeated Rosewall ON CLAY that year.
     
  38. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    It was very close at that time. Bill Tilden and Hans Nusslein were the first professional players to be neck and neck with the top amateur players. If forced to make a choice for the best male player of 1933, I pick Jack Crawford. He was really unfortunate to lose that final and a big place in tennis history.
     
  39. timnz

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    Push come to shove

    Who would you say would win in a match in 1933 - Tilden vs Crawford on a medium or fast surface or Nusslein vs Crawford on a slow surface?
     
  40. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Dan, Where have I forgotten to contradict you?? I use to contradict you almost every time (maybe too often for some...).

    Your rankings are the worst I have ever seen (and I have seen some strange ones like Hopman's who ranked Emerson ahead of Rosewall).

    Your new "arguments" are as absurd as all of your's. You don't have any reasonable answers to my arguments and to the facts and to the experts...

    Instead of studying the facts you are citing Richard Nixon and such stuff.

    Shame on you!
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  41. BobbyOne

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    timnz, I believe that Crawford would beat Tilden on fast surface. Nüsslein would beat Crawford on clay.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  42. Dan Lobb

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    He lost because his friends mistakenly thought he would benefit from alcoholic beverages (he had minor asthma), and laced his drinks with alcohol. By the end of the third set he was unwittingly drunk and unable to play.
    If they had left him alone, he would have won.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2012
  43. Dan Lobb

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    Citing Richard Nixon's PRESENCE as U.S. Vice-President to show how BIG and IMPORTANT the match was, with OVER !0 MILLION viewers. The biggest match of the year and the decade in terms of audience. This gives it greater weight.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  44. Dan Lobb

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    People seem to forget that the Davis Cup DWARFED all other tennis events in the period 1946 to 1967. The players tried to peak for that event, and personal rankings reflected Davis Cup success.
     
  45. boredone3456

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    So I guess the Queens prescence at Wimbledon in 1977 makes Virginia Wade's win there the most important match of 1977 in womens tennis as well then eh?

    I didn't realize the prescence of a politician somehow made one match trump a years worth of difference otherwise.
     
  46. Dan Lobb

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    You've got it backwards. If an event is super-important, the Queen or the Vice-President might show up to make it a public event.
    The importance of the event makes it worthwhile for the public official to be there.
    Also, NBC recognized the importance of the 1955 Davis Cup encounter between Hoad and Trabert by making it their first-ever color broadcast, which attracted over 10 million viewers in the U.S.A., the first ever mass TV audience for tennis. That shows how tennis was on the map.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2012
  47. Dan Lobb

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    The Queen also showed up for the 1957 Wimbledon final where Hoad dominated Cooper, and the 1962 final where Laver dominated Mulligan. Two special players.
    In general, the Queen does not attend Wimbledon, unlike other major sporting events. Probably because her own father played men's doubles at Wimbledon in the early 1920's, he asked the other players to show him no special favours, and he was beaten badly as a result. I guess the other players should not have followed his advice.
     
  48. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Hall of Fame

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    The first NBC color broadcast ever was "The Colgate Comedy Hour" in 1953, followed by The Tournament of Roses Parade in 1954. Just another thing you are misrepresenting in your quest to make Hoad look better and better in your eyes.
     
  49. Dan Lobb

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    You have avoided the most salient points.
    Actually, the Tournament of Roses was shown on only 21 stations, and was not a "sporting event", but a PARADE.
    The first national network broadcast of a sporting event in color was the 1955 Davis Cup match between Hoad and Trabert.
    This was a true measure of the progress tennis had made in the national consciousness as a result of the Hoad/Trabert Davis Cup matchups between 1953 and 1955.
    Truly historic.
     
  50. boredone3456

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    You did not say first ever broadcast in color of a sporting event, you said "first ever color broadcast by NBC"there is a major difference between those 2 statements which I am sure you well know. You are just trying to save face because yet another one of your ascertains have been contradicted and proven wrong in this thread, whether you want to admit it or not.

    Who cares whether the tournament of roses is a Parade or not? It was broadcast in color, which proves your claim wrong.

    While it is quite clear you know a lot of the history surrounding the game of tennis you look at it through some of the most rose tinted glasses possible when it comes to your favorite players and the tone in which you address people who dare contradict is getting quite over the top and almost borders on trollish.
     

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