World Tour Finals or the Tennis Singles Olympic Gold

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Eragon, Jul 20, 2013.

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WTF singles or the Singles Olympic Gold

  1. World Tour Finals - Singles

    55.9%
  2. Olympic Tennis Gold - Singles

    44.1%
  1. Vcore89

    Vcore89 Hall of Fame

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    Until the OG is a true (for that reason only; the computer points matters not, imo) representation of the singles participants, I'd say WTF.
     
  2. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Actually, I answered your question with a question of my own,but I guess you didn't grasp it. So to make it clearer:

    If Federer was asked if he's won an OG, he wouldn't say he has half a gold medal, or a shared gold medal, he'd say with an expanded chest that he does have an OG medal. Sure Fed wants to win another OG in a different event such as Tennis singles,that doesn't make his existing OG any less prestigious.


    HUH? I gave Federer/Lendl/Edberg's example too to say that a missing OG doesn't stick out of their resume but a missing slam sure does. Don't know what's puzzling about that.

    Yes but the odds of everyone(by everyone you mean layman I assume) knowing Usain Bolt/Michael Phelps has an OG is far more than Agassi/Nadal having one.

    Don't know what you're talking about,sorry.

    Nice to know there are some reasonable Nadal fans around, I'd lost hope I'd ever find one to have a reasonable debate with.

    Ok that's your opinion, I respectfully disagree.


    Not nothing but an extra RG makes his resume look more one-dimensional in the GOAT debate. You've gotta be delusional to think that a player can rack up most of his slams at one major and be crowned GOAT.
     
  3. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    That is the point I was trying to make.

    Players can and indeed say a lot of things that are illogical. One can speculate why that is, but it is a fact. Unless they get into great details about why they think so it means nothing and even then the reasoning is open for a discussion.
     
  4. octogon

    octogon Semi-Pro

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    Sampras has since changed his mind as to the value of the Olympics. He said when he was playing, the players were split as to the importance of the Olympics in tennis, since it had only recently been re-introduced to the tennis calender.

    Sampras now acknowledges today that all the top players valuing Olympic singles gold as being "special", and now regrets not taking it as seriously during his playing career.

    That's the nature of tennis though. Within a very short space of time, certain tournaments prestige value can shoot through the roof. There was once a time when players would regularly skip the Australian Open. Doesn't happen now.

    Now that Sampras sees how big of a deal Olympics is to today's top players (Federer, Djokovic, Nadal, Murray), I think he now feels it was a huge missed opportunity to have an even more complete career, had he taken it more seriously. Andre was wise enough not to have any of those regrets.
     
  5. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    Looking at the past champions of both, I think it's clear which one top players care more about.
     
  6. GoaLaSSo

    GoaLaSSo Semi-Pro

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    An olympic gold is more valuable to the player himself. It is something that immortalizes you in the sports world forever and almost everyone in the world recognizes. I think most players would prefer to win olympic gold.

    A WTF is more difficult to achieve, worth more points, and is more prestigious within the tennis world.
     
  7. monfed

    monfed Guest

    An OG is an OG , you play for your country and you win an OG for your country,plain and simple. Stan doesn't have half of Roger's gold, the same analogy simply can't be applied to doubles slams. Your attempt at denigrating the value of doubles Olympic gold because it's not an individual event is quite frankly sad and pathetic.

    If Andy hadn't won the SOG, you wouldn't be overhyping the SOG either. If it was so prestigious as mostly Nadal and Murray fans say then why has the ATP only given it 750 points which is infact even less than a MS title let alone a WTF title?
     
  8. Eragon

    Eragon Banned

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    I'm not sure I understand. What do you mean by a "true representation"?
     
  9. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    Murray won the singles gold. The entire reason we're having this discussion, right? If he'd lost people'd probably have satisfied themselves with a single post to share an opinion. Here they are though, trying to detract from a doubles gold medal (that's like saying 50m freestyle swimming gold medal counts but 200m is for p***ies).

    The Olympics are unique (compared to tennis in the ATP Tour) because of a great many things, not least of all the fact that people care when they hear their country's national anthem and they care about their contribution to their country's position in the medal table and the national support.

    I think we'll continue to be treated with the hypocritical Murrayphilia regardless of what sensible arguments people present here, so might as well close the thread.
     
  10. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Go and ask a layman who Nicholas Massu/Marc Rosset are, you'll most probably get blank stares,unless you wiki them you won't know the first thing about them. Heck when you ask laymen about Nadal, they go "Oh yes the king of clay", they sure don't remember him for his OG.

    I wonder these same folks who are hyping up the "SOG" as some prestigious thing would be happy if Wimby was awarded more brownie points for being more prestigious than RG. The intellectual dishonesty in this debate is nothing short of staggering and borderline disgusting.
     
  11. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Yea the finger pointing works both ways,funny how the SOG cheerleaders don't see that.
     
  12. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    The Olympic Gold is the most valuable achievement in tennis. There are four slams every year. The Olympics are only played once every four years. There are sixteen grand slams played for every Olympics. Ergo, you have sixteen times as many opportunities to win a grand slam as the Olympic Gold. Ergo, the Olympics are sixteen times more important than a grand slam.
     
  13. monfed

    monfed Guest

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  14. LotusTang

    LotusTang Rookie

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. Eragon

    Eragon Banned

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    Following your stupendously clever line of reasoning, these conclusions can also be drawn.
    1. A WTF is worth 4 Slams
    2. The SOG should be awarded 32000 points instead of 750
    3. Murray is the GOAT, having won a Singles Gold and a Doubles Silver.
     
  16. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Could you please post a link to his original words? Thanks!

    Think about why he (if he) changed his mind. Not because the Olympic tennis tournament has changed its nature, but because more (all?) top players view it as such. So, either Sampras admits that he didn't recognize what the OG stand for (in which case this has NOTHING to do with the level of competition) or the competition was not focused on the OG. He can have regrets about the first, but not the second (so he shouldn't be sorry viewing the matter from that perspective).

    I am curious (should you provide his actual words) whether he discusses the importance of the OG relative to the importance of other tournaments, because viewing something in a changed way doesn't necessarily change its position relative to other things.

    The only thing we are sure about is, that in his time he didn't consider the OG important and did consider the TMC very important.
     
  17. TTMR

    TTMR Hall of Fame

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    Furthermore, if you put the Olympics Singles Gold into "slam units", Nadal is the GOAT, followed by Agassi, and then Murray and Kafelnikov, with Federer a meager fifth.

    Nadal - 28 slam units
    Agassi - 24 slam units
    Kafelnikov - 18 slam units
    Murray - 18 slam units
    Federer - 17 slam units
    Massu, Rosset, Mecir - 16 slam units each
    ....
    Djokovic - 6 slam units

    I think this corresponds to an accurate perception of tennis achievement.
     
  18. Eragon

    Eragon Banned

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    You are, of course, right. But wouldn't Federer's 6 WTF titles count for 24 Slam Units? That coupled with his Doubles Gold would make him the undisputed Tennis (singles and doubles) GOAT :shock:
     
  19. OKUSA

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    When Jerzy wins Olympic Gold in Rio, everyone will stop caring about it again
     
  20. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    WTF simply because every player in history has actually had the opportunity in their careers to compete for it unlike the Olympics which was not an option for 60 years. If the olympics had been a continuous medal sport throughout the years maybe it could be a real debate. But if you seriously want to have the discussion you can only debate it for players who have had reasonable chances at both since 1988...otherwise its pointless.
     
  21. johnchung907

    johnchung907 Rookie

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    Olympic Gold vs. WTF.
    Hm... In my opinion WTF is more prestigious. You have the best players competing. In the Olympics, anybody can win it. You have no name players winning the Olympics some years. In WTF you have one of the best players IN THE WORLD winning it EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Besides, who remembers past olympic champions. Oh wait I can only name three: Agassi (I don't even know the year), Nadal (Eight), and Murray ('12). Oh wait now let me list to you every World Tour Finals Winner I know.

    2012- Djokovic
    2011- Federer
    2010- Federer
    2009- Davydenko
    2008- Djokovic
    2007- Federer
    2006- Federer
    2005- Nalbandian
    2004- Federer
    2003- Federer
    2002 - Hewitt
    2001 - Hewitt

    And I know this information through just my head, no internet.
     
  22. moonballs

    moonballs Hall of Fame

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    Love your choice of word "incredible", because your claim that a fairly young event surpassing WTF, is just that.

    Fed and Nadal arrange their careers four or five year in advance: one of the funnies things I have heard.

    Tennis has plenty of its own tradition. It does not need the huge international machine that is called Olympics to promote it.

    To real tennis fans the WTF offers a unique format for just the elite players the end of season. The ranking system gives it far more points than Olympic singles gold. To a non tennis fan, probably the Olympic gold has more meaning; but then again he will think a gold in doubles is equally impressive.
     
  23. sarmpas

    sarmpas Semi-Pro

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    People just don't get it.

    For tennis kudos/reputation/standing WTF.

    For a warming feeling from their sporting lives in retirement OG all the way.
     
  24. Vcore89

    Vcore89 Hall of Fame

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    Without being redundant--was about to write along these lines--let me paraphrase from what ''Raz11'' said: WTF includes the world's top 8 players (withdrawals are inevitable) of the year. sOG only has the best players from a number of countries. Only 14 out of the top 20 played at the Olympics.

    Personally though I think the comparison should've been between DC versus OG. Anyways, I think winning the Davis Cup is more glorious than sOG.

    DC and OG are glorious events. The Championships, USO, Roland Garros and AO plus the WTF are prestigious events.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  25. ibbi

    ibbi Professional

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    For prestige I would go with the Olympic Gold. It's a freaking Olympic Gold Medal, let's not kid ourselves.

    For VALUE, well the WTF is worth more points, so of course it's more valuable.

    For importance, well the WTF has the longer history, I do think Olympic Gold has come along leaps and bounds lately, but the end of season championships won over the worlds top players is always a nice feather to have in your cap. The one thing that detracts from it is that it's right at the end of the season, and you always wonder just how much most of the guys have left in the tank.
     
  26. 6-3 6-0

    6-3 6-0 Hall of Fame

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    I agree that WTFs are more important and prestigious than OG, hence ATP allots double the points to the champion of WTF (ofcourse if he remains undefeated) as compared to OG. But this doesn't take anything from those who has won OG but never a WTF. Both are unique in its own way.
     
  27. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Again, comparing Olympics to ATP and grand slam events is not an apple to apple comparison. Olympics is all about for the country. Olympic tennis has both individual and double competition, much like gymnastic, swimming and track/field...they all have single and team competition. Guys like Usian and Phelps all have won single gold and team gold and they all value the same. No one is going to say Phelps's 4 gold medals are not equal because two of them are from team competition. People will remember his total gold medals count he won throughout his career, and not devalue the ones he won in medley(team event). Get it?



    Spain and England is not getting anymore credit than the Swiz winning the gold. Anyone of you declare Fed's double gold is less than Nadal or Murray gold is dishonest.
     
  28. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    OT question here, but are there any other players besides Federer and Murray to have 2 olympic medals ? (gold/silver or any other combo)
     
  29. Morj

    Morj Semi-Pro

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    WTF is undoubtedly more difficult to win and a more impressive feat for a player. But in terms of prestige and value of course Olympics takes priority, an Olympic medal has universal recognition and commands respect from fans of any sport. Putting up a poll for tennis fans isnt going to change that, regardless of where the votes go its just a fact that an Olympic medal is one of the greatest sporting achievements that any person can identify and admire.

    Just because WTF has been of more value in the past doesn't mean things haven't changed now. There was a time where WTF was held in a higher regard than the Aussie Open but that changed when top players started playing Aussie Open. Same thing has happened now, top players have really started aiming for an Olympic medal. Just last year Olympics was being referred to by everyone as the 5th slam, WTF is obviously a step down.

    And don't even bring up the silly "points" issue... Olympics isnt part of the usual calendar so of course ATP will not want it to impact the structure of the tour too much. Does that really need explaining?
     
  30. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    True. Above all else, the majors are the reason players are in this sport, but after the top prize within the sport, certainly the Olympics--with its globally storied history--would be the next valued title/prize. WTF is not on that stage.

    ...and that's why this thread exists: to find some way of giving Federer a credit over a title he failed to win.
     
  31. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Of course singles achievement is not comparable to doubles achievement but the Olympics are about winning a medal for your country and not comparable to slams IMO. The OG is OG, whether you win it for singles, doubles, pole vault or synchronized swimming. The medal won for every event is exactly the same and you wouldn't be able to tell looking at it if it was awarded for singles, doubles or mixed doubles. Whereas , the Bryans are not given a replica of the Wimbledon Men's singles trophy for winning the doubles title , are they ?
     
  32. bullfan

    bullfan Legend

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    this is a fed vs Nadl/Murray thread. no more no less.
     
  33. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

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    Other than the global visibility etc, what exactly is the unique achievement or skill required in winning the Olympics ?

    Slams represent the pinnacle of achievement on 4 different surfaces. The uniqueness of WTF is the fact that you need to beat top 8 players and the RR format where cake draws and fluke wins are not easy to come by. Can't say the same about Olympics.
     
  34. 6-3 6-0

    6-3 6-0 Hall of Fame

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    There...Fixed it for ya ;)
     
  35. jackson vile

    jackson vile Legend

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    It is simple, WTF is played same place same time every year. Not much of a challenge if the conditions are always the same, that is why Federer has so many.

    Olympics, it is always different, which makes it far more challenging. Also, you only have that chance once every 4 years. Finally, it seems to be far more competitive, it brings out the best of the lower ranked players. They are fighting not for money, not for themselves, but for their people/country.
    As a result, they fight a whole lot harder as Federer has found out the hard way.
     
  36. Morj

    Morj Semi-Pro

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    Everyone is forgetting what the OP asked. No one is asking what is more difficult, because that is the WTF obviously.

    Prestige- Olympic Gold (not even close)
    Value- Olympic Gold (not even close)
    Importance- Neither are necessary for a Male Tennis Player to have, the one thing that is "necessary" for a player to be considered great is to win slam(s).
     
  37. Incognito

    Incognito Hall of Fame

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    Fed almost cried after beating Falla in the early stages at the olympics. This is a guy with 17 majors for crying out loud. Clearly the Olympics matter so much to him. Then he also almost cried again after beating Juan Martin to finally reach an olympic final after several attempts. Courier, Agassi and Sampras have all competed in the olympics, the pressure is HUGE because if you lose in the semis you'll compete for bronze which is embarassing IMO lol. Players either go for broke, to win or lose before the semis. There's no money, it's all prestige and honor.

    Also the surface in the WTF cater HC players. Players excel on different surfaces, we have 3 slam surfaces, and because of that the surface should change every year IMO. If they could change it to an outdoor event in 2003? 2004? why not change it to grass or clay..
     
  38. GoaLaSSo

    GoaLaSSo Semi-Pro

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    I'm talking about it purely from the player's perspective. The OG is probably more precious to the player himself, but the WTF is more impressive on a resume.

    When I said it immortalizes them, I didn't mean that everyone in the world knew who they were automatically. It is just that the olympics are high prestige around the sporting world.

    I don't think an OG is more impressive on a list of achievements, but if I ever had the opportunity to choose winning an OG or a WTF I would choose the OG. Also, I believe there is no difference between a singles olympic gold and doubles olympic gold.
     
  39. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Let's put it this way...

    2 medals > 1 medal

    Nadal would trade his gold for Roger's gold plus silver.
     
  40. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    I'd say WTF over Olympics any day, but that's because I have many issues with the Olympics (professional athletes, company-sponsored uniforms (even worse, ones made outside the represented country), etc.), which basically makes the Olympics seem like a joke to me (though not the fact that it is the greatest achievement in many sports, such as track or swimming, for example; I would never say that Bolt's or Phelps' wins were not great accomplishments). But tennis has the slams, tennis has the WTFs, where they HAVE to play the best players of the year. Many players can be on their game and super-lucky and win one Olympics, but to be consistently on their game throughout the year is another beast. Yeah, one of you will bring up fluke slams, but let's be honest, which is harder: winning a slam or winning either WTF or Olympics?

    As for history, though, that is in many ways a weak argument. By that logic, Davis Cup is as prestigious or more so than slams, and AO matters less than SOG. Because, let's be honest, AO was at one point valued so little the best players wouldn't show up, while Davis Cup earned German national players phone calls from the Fuhrer wishing them luck (which was not the case with slams). Of course, in the Open Era, slams are the most valuable, especially Wimbledon (was it Becker who said he'd trade one of his Wimbledons for five Rolland Garoses?). So saying that because it was valued for X many years a generation or so ago is indeed weak.

    But who here can name more Olympic gold medalists than WTF champions?
     
  41. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Well, Fed is a complete failure for not winning the CYGS so it doesn't matter if he wins a SOG or not,wouldn't matter to his resume anyway as you can't polish a turd.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2013
  42. RNadal

    RNadal Semi-Pro

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    Is there a particular reason for that? One of the most traditional and famous individual sport in the world, clearly no reason for taking part at the Olympics.
     
  43. fed_da_man

    fed_da_man Rookie

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    SOG matters for players because of prestige, history, nationalism and stuff like that but I don't think it can really be used to measure players against each other. Once every four years is too infrequent for the tournament to be used as a yardstick.
     
  44. Morj

    Morj Semi-Pro

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    Stop bringing up difficulty! WTF is more difficult/impressive to win, thats a fact.

    But the OP is asking which has more prestige and value, and that is the Olympic Medal without doubt.
     
  45. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    So, could you please tell me (without looking this up), who won the 1996 Olympics Men's Singles Gold?
     
  46. monfed

    monfed Guest

    This.

    10c
     
  47. merwy

    merwy Legend

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    Jeez, can we like never talk about this subject again, ever? I know this is one of those recurring threads just like Who Is GOAT?, but this is so stupid. It depends on the player which tournament he values more. I can imagine players wanting to win the one more that they haven't won yet. And if they're close to getting to a certain ranking which they really want to achieve they will go for the 1500pts. If they value playing for their country more (like Del Potro or Djokovic) I can imagine they want to win the Olympics more.

    But come on, you can't seriously discuss which one is "worth" more. They're just two different tournaments. You might as well discuss which is the more prestigious GS: AO or US Open
     
  48. Morj

    Morj Semi-Pro

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    No, and I dont need to... I dont keep track of the Olympics tennis records because its not part of the usual tennis tour.

    But that doesnt change the fact that an Olympic Medal is a universally recognizable achievement across all sports and inherently holds more prestige and value than a WTF. I guarantee more people, outside of tennis fans, are aware that Murray is an Olympic Champion than that Djokovic won 2012 WTF.

    Answer me this; last year were people referring to the Olympics as the 5th slam?
     
  49. MTF07

    MTF07 Semi-Pro

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    If winning the Olympics is such a difficult feat, I guess Massu is one of the greatest players of all time then.
     
  50. Warmaster

    Warmaster Hall of Fame

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    Sports like Tennis, football (soccer), basketball etc are big enough on their own. They don't need the Olympics to get attention.

    Olympics should be all about Athletics, Swimming and sports that don't get a lot of recognition outside of the Olympics. For these sports the Olympics are the ultimate achievement. For Football, tennis etc it's just a nice extra.

    Now I don't really mind those sports being at the Olympics to be honest, I just prefer sports where the participants peak for the Olympics as the ultimate goal of the year. In tennis for example, Grand Slam tournaments will always be more important.

    Just my opinion ofcourse.
     

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