Would Federer Have Reclaimed No. 1 if not for the Blue Clay?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by ctoth666, Jul 16, 2012.

  1. ctoth666

    ctoth666 Professional

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    Federer picked up 640 ranking points on the blue stuff in Madrid, and Djokovic lost 820 ranking points. The current difference is 75 points, so strictly from a mathematical standpoint Federer would not have risen to no. 1 in the rankings.

    I apologize if this is a dumb thread, because after winning Wimbledon I suspect that Federer would have gotten there eventually. But it puts more emphasis on the Madrid blue clay fiasco. He was extremely fortunate for that surface change, and you might even say that he's lucky to be in the position he's in now. Federer has won the Madrid event before, but I wouldn't have picked him to beat Djokovic and Nadal consecutively like in the previous year on the red stuff. I know there are a lot variables in tennis, but usually that's not a surface change to something no one has ever played on.
     
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  2. Dreamcastin

    Dreamcastin Rookie

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    pointless to even debate.

    Heres a similar pointless question.

    If djokers hail mary forehands wouldnt have went in during the us open against fed, would he go on to have the year he had?
     
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  3. Marius_Hancu

    Marius_Hancu G.O.A.T.

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    just another showcasing of his unique talent
     
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  4. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    Perfect.

    /thread.
     
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  5. psYcon

    psYcon Semi-Pro

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    from that perspective, Federer would have gotten to the #1 ranking even sooner, had Djokovic not gambled on his crosscourt forehand winner at matchpoint down.

    There's always 'ifs and what-ifs' but it is what it is.
     
    #5
  6. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    would Nadal have won Wimbledon if not for the Green Clay?
     
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  7. *Val*

    *Val* Semi-Pro

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    lol
    10char
     
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  8. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    whelp. no more calls please, all lines busy.
     
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  9. dudeski

    dudeski Hall of Fame

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    Would Federer ever lost #1 ranking if not for red clay. Obviously if not for the red clay Nadal would never even got to number #2 rank since he wouldn't be able to get all the points and confidence he gets from dominating red clay. This means he would never do well on grass or hard courts. So does that mean Federer would have been non stop number #1 for 8 years now?!?!
     
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  10. sunof tennis

    sunof tennis Professional

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    You realize that Federer won in Madrid before on the "red" (actually brown/orange) clay, right?
     
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  11. ZeroSkid

    ZeroSkid Banned

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    Probably not considering he only ahead by 75 points
     
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  12. Jeepers

    Jeepers Professional

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    Does this mean that Federer is the GOAT due to Ion Tiriac?
     
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  13. billnepill

    billnepill Hall of Fame

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    Would Nadal ever become N1 without the green clay? Troll question but so is the OP.
     
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  14. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    yea the blue clay, and the roof, and the black cat walking in front of him
     
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  15. kragster

    kragster Hall of Fame

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    Would my grandpa be my grandma if he had no balls?
     
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  16. Cup8489

    Cup8489 Legend

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    Doesnt matter, it happened.
     
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  17. ledwix

    ledwix Hall of Fame

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    The answer is yes. Federer would have gained the #1 ranking back by the US Open anyway. Djokovic is defending 3600 points the rest of the summer whereas Fed defends like 1000.
     
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  18. RogerRacket111

    RogerRacket111 Semi-Pro

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    Would the sun rise in the east ?
     
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  19. Cormorant

    Cormorant Professional

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    No tanking whatsoever was proven at this season's Madrid masters, even though it was glaringly evident.
     
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  20. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    If they didn't add the roof to wimbledon and the blue clay to Madrid? Highly doubt it.. Has Fed shown he can win big titles on slow surfaces over the past few years? Nope
     
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  21. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    didnt he beat nadal in the semis of the swirling winds of the slow IW...and go on to beat Isner who handed djoko his walking papers?
     
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  22. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

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    i repeat.. Has Fed won any big titles the last few years on slower surfaces?? I saw nothing from Fed the past few years that makes me think Fed would have reclaimed Number 1 if they didn't screw with the clay in madrid or put the roof on Wimbledon.. He wouldn't have won Madrid most likely and surely wouldn't have gotten through Nole and Nadal (who I think would have no doubt been in the finals if they didn't add the roof and up the surface speed of wimbledon). Heck I don't even think he would have gotten by Nole in the semis if they didn't close the roof.

    Fed's main big tournaments wins has come under faster conditions (Madrid, Wimbledon with the roof closed and those YEC titles)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
    #22
  23. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    last time I checked, IW wasnt a 250.

    again, he beat nadal in the semis...I believe it was in straights?
     
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  24. ctoth666

    ctoth666 Professional

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    Look, what I'm saying is that the blue clay at Madrid was one of the most bizarre changes of fate I've witnessed in ten years of following professional tennis. The roof at Wimbledon was a logical decision and it's been in place for several years. The distribution of clay and hard court events has been steady over the past decade or more. Etc. The blue clay was a huge curveball that was ultimately a failed experiment, but it clearly favored Federer over his main competition. This is certainly different than suggesting that Federer would be number one if not for Djokovic's return down match point or whatever else you can think of. And honestly it's well within the possibility that the roof being closed at Wimbledon contributed to his success, and to say otherwise would be ignorant. Maybe if that roof doesn't close, Nadal makes it through to the final and beats Federer? I know it's all hypothetical, but you can't argue that there are an increasing number of variables that have come into play and I can't say that it has been a good thing.

    Yeah Federer's number one, but because of some pretty exceptional circumstances and I'd argue that he doesn't truly deserve it.
     
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  25. augustobt

    augustobt Hall of Fame

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    In very windy conditions... a funny fact, once it was against "the best wind player ever"
     
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  26. Rhino

    Rhino Legend

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    Would Rafa Have ever been No. 1 if not for the Red Clay?

    If red helped Rafa and blue helped Fed, then it looks like Rafa got the better deal in tennis.
     
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  27. Agassifan

    Agassifan Hall of Fame

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    Pathetic. Sore. Losers.
     
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  28. King Roger

    King Roger New User

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    Fed managed to adapt to the new blue clay, whereas other players like Nadal and Djokovic were complaining. This makes him better than those two.
     
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  29. doobiedoodoo

    doobiedoodoo Rookie

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    Would Nadal be able to hit with so much topspin without the improvement in racquet and string technology in the last 10 years?
     
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  30. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    Not Federer fault that Nadal lost to Verdasco and Djokovic lost to Tipsarevic?

    Federer deserved the title since he adapted or at least got through the horrendous situation.

    Federer deserves the number one ranking for his onslaught for this year but for 12 months I would say Djokovic is the true number one.

    When Djokovic loses that US Open, and Nadal does take the title at the US Open.....then Federer by all means is Number One in everyone eyes.
     
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  31. scineram

    scineram Professional

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    Once you had you're eyes checked, check this out!
     
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  32. The tennis guy

    The tennis guy Hall of Fame

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    Keep wasting your time, and arguing Federer doesn't deserve No. 1. Federer can't sleep because you think he doesn't deserve it.
     
    #32
  33. SQA333

    SQA333 Hall of Fame

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    Yes he has. Indian Wells is considered quite a slow hard court. We'll count the Australian Open in 2010 if you want, too.
     
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  34. roysid

    roysid Professional

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    This is the second time I have seen Federer achieving something which was deemed close to impossible.

    1) First - winning the French Open.
    2) Becoming No.1 again after falling so way behind to No. 4. Many things went his way then, not just blue clay. All those titles he won. Madrid, was not his fault because Djkokovic/Nadal were playing with -ve mindset.

    At wimbledon, had to be in Djokovic's half to stop him at semis(720 - 2000 = -1280 ) for djokovic. And Fed gained (2000 - 360 = 1680) points.
     
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  35. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Here's a better question:

    Would Nadal have even turned pro if ALL clay tournaments had switched to blue clay 10 years ago? :shock:
     
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  36. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Are you sure you've been following professional tennis for ten years? Because if you have, you would have noticed that the Madrid Masters turned from being an indoor hardcourt tournament to a outdoor clay tournament four years ago. Now if that is not more of a drastic change than merely changing the color of the court, I don't know what is.

    So which would have favored Federer more? Indoor hardcourts or outdoor blue clay courts?

    BTW, I have news for you. Blue clay is here to stay. It will be at Madrid again next year and I hope all other clay tournaments will soon adopt it, just like all harcourt tournaments switched to blue hardcourts. It's simply much easier to see the ball on TV with blue courts than with orange courts. Increasing TV viewership is a good thing for pro tennis.
     
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  37. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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  38. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The blue clay and the roof were definitely things that went Federer's way, but it doesn't always go his way.

    Blue clay, by the way, is not going to happen next year according to the ATP.
     
    #38
  39. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Some pretty exceptional circumstances? Oh, yeah, you mean he was the only one to win on all surfaces/conditions this year (outdoor HC, indoor HC, clay, and grass) while Djokovic only won on outdoor HC and Nadal only won on clay?

    You're right, winning on one surface only and tanking matches/boycotting tournaments that don't play to your strengths would be so much more deserving of the #1 spot... :roll:
     
    #39
  40. Colin

    Colin Professional

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    The real fiasco was refusing to switch to blue clay after giving us that tantalizing little tournament — offering a refreshing break from the ruddy, plodding tedium only to send us back to weeks more of molasses tennis. It's a cruel tease akin to handing out free bites of filet mignon at Burger King then forcing everyone to return to their Whopper value meals.
     
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  41. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    Federer showed he can stand up, walk, run, turn and not moan on the few occasions he slipped at Madrid. The benefits at WO were there for all to see. Don't tell me it was all down to the shoes.

    The only people it reflects badly on are those who run like a bull in a china shop. For others whose game depends on running down everything and/or playing as long a rally as possible, then it just comes with the territory.

    There are always going to be disadvantages to every style of play. RF's backhand slice did for Murray, but matches up badly with Nadal.

    I am just happy to see different surfaces, styles of play, winners.
     
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  42. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    And a few big tourneys rewarding aggressive tennis (for a change in this mud slow era) is a problem why exactly? If anything the roof at Wimbledon counterbalances the fact that they slowed down the grass (and messed with the balls) in the first place, for crying out loud Wimbledon should
    reward aggressive first strike tennis not be a baseline basher's paradise.

    Heck they even slowed USO two times that we know of (in 2001 and 2003) and I wouldn't be surprised if they slowed it down further since, some balance between slower and faster surfaces is desperatily needed.
     
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  43. SLD76

    SLD76 Legend

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    wait..didnt fed win hamburg a few times when it was a clay master?
    didnt he beat nadal in the final of madrid in 09? on clay?
    hasnt he won miami and iw which are slow hardcourts?
    wasnt fed the one who ended rafa's clay match streak?

    this 90's tennis fan is a liar..he hasnt watched tennis in the 90'
    s, 2000's or now as he obviously doesnt know what he is talking
    about.


    as per bolded, agreed. I remember during dubai, murray was praising the fact that the court played fast( for a change)
     
    #43
  44. Raging Buddha

    Raging Buddha Semi-Pro

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    Yes, the fact that Federer has won eight tournaments in total over the last year while Djokovic has won four outdoor hard courts and Nadal has won four clay titles definitely show he doesn't deserve the ranking.
     
    #44
  45. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Hall of Fame

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    Yes, he has.

    Fed has won in Madrid. Guess against which player and on what surface? Hint: Not in 2012 and 2006. And what year?

    But but but. What happened to "Nadal is good on all surfaces now. Look, he even won the US Open".

    And, it is not "most likely". Oh, and by the way, as seen by my analysis of the statistics from the FR, the roof influence is blown out of proportion. Sorry to disappoint you.


    You mean like at RG 2011 SF? Oh, wait ......

    He has won in all conditions. Including this year. You fail.
     
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