would pulling the strings twice be better than pre stretching?

Discussion in 'Stringing Techniques / Stringing Machines' started by 2ndServe, Sep 29, 2012.

  1. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    if I pulled the string then released it and pulled it again would this be better than pre stretching?
     
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  2. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    No. Just different. That said, if you do this on the crosses, you will achieve a tighter string bed.
     
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  3. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    ok thx, I actually like as boardy a feel as I can get. I string kevlar mains at 70lbs and skip the outer mains like you did at one time. I'm wondering how high I can go before I stress the frame too much.
     
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  4. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    That depends on what type of stringer you have and what type of pre stretching you are doing. You could pre-stretch manually by wrapping a set of starring around a pole and pulling on the ends to remove coiling. Or you could use a pre-stretch on some electronic machines. When pulling tension two times (or more) on the string on a lock-out machine you will see a difference. If you are pulling tension two times on a true constant pull (some electronic machines are not true constant pull) you will see less of a difference if any. If you go through the process of pulling two times on a true constant pull then you will be pulling the string for a longer period of time. If using a constant pull and you increase the time you pull the string you increase the stretch. Even though the tension is the same longer pulling times produce a stiffer string bed.
     
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  5. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I remember YULitle made a video one time that he thought showed if you pull a hard weave two time you got a lot more stretch but that is not true. If you want to test it out mark the point on your tension your gripper is at when you pull the string, then release tension but hold the gripper closed on the string so it remains in the same place, and pull tension again you will see it goes right back to where it was.

    EDIT: Here is the video I was talking about

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwjDUQAGZMY&feature=plcp
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
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  6. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I guess the best way to really answer your question is with a couple of questions. What are you trying to achieve with the double pull or pre-stretch, and what type stringer do you have?
     
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  7. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    More than likely you are correct but not for the reason you are insinuating. When you pull twice you are doing something to break the friction between the mains and crosses. When that friction is overcome more of the tension is applied to the complete cross string.

    When I pull tension on a cross (using a constant pull) if first move the string I am tensioning to try to get it close to straight. It's breaks the friction between that cross and the mains. Ten I straighten the last cross I tensioned to get it as straight as I can. Then I move that string I am tensioning again. All this takes time and that extra time I use stretches the cross string for a longer period of time which produces a tighter string bed. With the mains that isn't necessary because there are no crosses in yet but a slight tug on the string you are tension could break the friction between the main and the frame again making for a tighter string bed all without rally increasing tension.

    None of this is necessary with an electronic constant pull that produces a jerky (off-on-off) pull on the string which breaks the friction.
     
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  8. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    I have a lockout machine, an old alpha. But I find after one set my strings are catapulting my returns as I'm taking the ball on the rise in no man's land and coming in on the return.

    Once this happens I feel like I have to check up on the returns to just get it in. So I'm looking for a super consistent string bed.
     
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  9. ATP100

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    Easy Answer: NO
     
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  10. rich s

    rich s Hall of Fame

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    agree.... I do this on my own racquets.....
     
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  11. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    what am I insinuating other than to say, it produces a tighter string bed?:confused:
     
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  12. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    If you do it on the mains you will have a tighter string bed too. And depending on how the pre stretch is done it may produce the tighter string bed. You're insinuating pulling twice will produce the tightest string bed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
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  13. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    No I'm not.

    Here is my post:

    I clearly said, "Tighter", not "Tightest".
     
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  14. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    ^^Yes and pre-stretching could produce a tighter stringbed.
     
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  15. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    OK, and pre-stretching, plus pulling twice, plus using a constant pull machines pre-stretch method will produce an even tighter string bed. So will stringing at 60, rather than 55, or stringing one piece vs two, or stringing a 3 box rather than a regular one piece, or using a constant pull vs a crank or using a babolat star 5 vs a baiardo. :roll: Your point?

    and again, contrary to your statement, I never insinuated anything than what I wrote in my first post. I never said "tightest". I clearly said "tighter". Please read the first post again before making misleading statements about what I did and didn't say, or "insinuate".
     
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  16. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    To insinuate is to suggest or hint something in an indirect way. What did you mean (insinuate) when you said, "IF YOU DO THIS ON THE CROSSES?"

    EDIT: The OP asked what he thought was a simple enough question - which is better pre-stretching or double pulling. Your response was, "If you do this on the crosses you will have a tighter string bed." I assumed you were only talking about double pulling producing a tighter string bed. Was I wrong when I assumed you meant double pulling will produce a tighter string bed?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
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  17. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Irvin, it's enough that Drakulie explained what he means. Why do you keep insisting that your "interpretation" has any relevance?

    Cheers,
    kev
     
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  18. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    My interpretation of what Drakulie meant by "this" (either pre-stretching or double pulling produces a tighter string bed or they are both the same when he said, "No just different,") has no relevance at all.
     
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  19. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    By the way I assumed he was answering the question, would pulling the strings twice be better than pre-stretching. When he said no just different, does that mean they both produce the same result. And when he said when you do this on the crosses. Do you know what this is?

    EDIT; BTW I must have missed it where did Drakulie explained what he meant? Or are you assuming what he insinuated?

    EDIT: I am done with IT you guys have have IT.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
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  20. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    I don't want to speak for Drakulie, but by answering the question, "would pulling the strings twice be better than pre-stretching", with "No. Just different", does not mean they both produce the same result! The clue is the use of the word "different". The "no" answers the question "would pulling the strings twice be better" & the way I read it, "This" refers to "pulling the strings twice".

    Edit: Don't go away mad! Your contributions to this community have been very valuable. Most of the time.

    Cheers,
    kev
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
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  21. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Like I thought you're assuming what he insinuated when he did not really insinuate anything.
     
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  22. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    It would help if you read the OP:

    And my response:


     
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  23. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Let me make sure you understand what you said. Are you saying neither method is any better than the other but double pulling will produce a tighter string bed than pre-stretching?
     
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  24. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry I missed you post somehow. Double pulling would offer a distinct advantage giving you a much more consistent tension that will hold for a longer period of time. Single pulling (with a lockout) would be similar to pre-stretching your string and there is a difference. Some machines like my Wise tensioner have a pre-stretch feature. All it does is pull at a higher tension and then drops back to your reference tension. When you single pull on a lockout you pull to a reference tension then it drops down to some value. Double pulling for you would produce a tighter string bed so you may want to consider than when you use that method. I would double pull the mains and crosses but primarily the mains. if you had a constant pull machine there would be less of a difference if there was any because the constant pulling is doing the subsequent pulls automatically.

    EDIT: sorry we hi-jacked your thread
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
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  25. bugeyed

    bugeyed Semi-Pro

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    Please explain. How is single pulling on a lockout machine similar to pre-stretching? Oh, you just mean that it pulls to one tension & the resulting tension is a lower tension? For me, that happens when you string on any machine with any method! So, I must have missed your point.

    kev
     
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  26. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    Sorry I thought I did explain but I will try again. When I select the pre stretch (10%) feature on my Wise with a reference tension of 50 the Wise will pull to 55 then drop down to 50. So the pre stretch pull at 10% over reference tension.

    Many say when you use a lockout the resulting tension is about 10% lower but I have found it depends on the string being used. But any way when you set the lockout to 55 it pulls to 55 and locks out. Unlike a constant pull that continues to keep the tension up while you move the clamp the lock out tension string drop immediately and in the first 5 seconds is the biggest drop so when you set a lockout at 55 (assuming a 10% drop for the lockout) you end up with a string bed tension of 49.5 (10% of 55 = 5.5.) but you never really know because you don't know how much all strings will relax in that time it takes you to move the clamp. But on a lockout you are doing almost the same thing a constant pull is doing with a double pull as you are capturing that tension loss that occurred in the 5 seconds after lockout and you know what your tension is so it should be more consistent. The reason for the greater consistency is because the tension loss will be greater on a longer string than a shorter string and almost every string in the racket is different lengths.

    Now which method is better to use if either? I would saying using a double pull on a lockout or a constant pull. If you are using a constant pull double pulling does not matter but that is not what the OP is using. On the lockout it makes a big difference.

    It has been said here on the forum that the Star 5 because of the overshoot breaks strings. And Drakulie just said the Star 5 pulls 5-8 lbs over reference. Therefore I would think the less overshoot you have the less stress on you strings and the better it is for the strings.

    EDIT: There is also a completely different type of pre stretch which is done without a machine when you wrap the string around a pole. That is not the pre stretch I am referring to.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
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  27. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    I understand exactly what I said. Apparently, you don't.

    Go back and read his first post and my response.
     
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  28. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    That's what I thought.
     
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  29. A Defenseless Creature

    A Defenseless Creature Semi-Pro

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    It's not the overshoot on the Star 5 that causes breakage its the tension head jaws. The overshoot will destroy playability, but the breakage is caused by another problem. It should be noted the tension jaw issue is NOT an issue on all Star 5s, just some of them.
     
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  30. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    ^^Good to know. I don't like the pre stretch on the Wise for the same reason especially for poly string.
     
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  31. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    after I strung on the star 5 at the 2012 GSS symposium, I told the babolat rep that the string bed was tighter than normal?!?!, he confirmed that yes the star 5 strings 5-7lbs tighter than other machines.
     
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  32. Roger Wawrinka

    Roger Wawrinka Professional

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    ^so if I were normaly stringing at 54 I would string on a star 5 at 49 to 45 to get the same tension?
     
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  33. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    The Star 5's issue as I understand it is with overshoot. You can adjust the reference tension. If the reference tension is off that's the operator's fault. The reason a racket strung on a Star 5 feels tighter is because of the overshoot (aka pre-stretch.) so if you normally string a racket now at 54 and you change stringing machine no matter which one it is you should start at your normal tension. Depending on how you like it you make need to adjust the tension up or down.
     
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  34. jjaded

    jjaded New User

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    I have seen this video, but isn't the sharpie mark on the wrong place, shouldn't it be at the grommet not where the string is clamped on the tensioner. Correct me if I am mistaken, but as shown it seems the machine would not pull the second pull as far, not necessarily pull anymore string from the racquet. If one marked at the grommet and that mark was further away from the racquet after the second pull I would agree that that amount of string would have been "loose" in the racquet otherwise.
     
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  35. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    It does not matter where you put the sharpie mark. If the mark were placed at the grommet you would still see it farther from the racket just not as far. The reason the mark moved a greater distance is because that little portion of string from the racket to the tensioner is fresh string that has never been stretched. That small portion of string in the racket was the section of string between the racket and the tensioned on the last pull. If YULitle has marked the point on the tension head where the back of the gripper stopped after tension was pulled and he had not pulled the string out of the gripper and reset it the gripper would have ended up in the same place. All he showed was the first pull. Had he made a second pull with the string reset in the gripper it would have been pelled about an inch less or the distance he moved the string up in the gripper. It is just a parlor trick but i dont think he knew he was actually tricking you. I think he fell for it also.

    Think about it for just a minute. You are pulling with a constant pull machine, and it goes back to some point. If you release tension and keep the string at the same place in the gripper and pull the same tension it will pull again to the same point.
     
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  36. fortun8son

    fortun8son Hall of Fame

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    I have to agree with drakulie.
    'Better'?...no.
    Different?...yes.
    Both will give a tighter stringbed, but for different reasons and with a different effect on the overall life of the string.
    There are many techniques that will produce a tighter stringbed, such as straightening the string while you pull the cross.
    'Better'?... a matter of opinion.
    Consistency is still the key.
     
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  37. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I would have to disagree with both of you. If you are pulling with a constant pull would it be better to pull twice? No just different and yes it would produce a tighter stringbed because you are pulling for a longer length of time. But you could do the same thing by pulling longer with one pull.

    Does the OP have a constant pull machine? No if he uses a NEOS it is a lockout machine. Pulling twice on a lockout does have some distinct advantages. And right up at the top of the list is tension loss. By pulling twice with a lockout machine you reduce tension loss. Would you consider a strung racket that holds it tension for a longer period of time a better string job? I would. Now there is also the theory that you have to break a new string job in first before it feels right so you let the racket sit for a while or play with it until it loosens up. But that 's a different argument.

    So let's ask the question this way. If the price of a constant pull electronic we're the same as a lockout which one would you buy? Now keep in mind a constant pull machine does just what the OP is asking. It pulls more than once. It just pulls and pulls until you stop it. A lockout doesn't it pull once and locks out. Now if you chose the electronic you are also saying multiple pulls is better than one. An electronic tensioner is no more accurate than a lockout.

    I agree tensioning and pre-stretching are two different things sometimes but some tensioning head do have a pre-stretch function that is different from what I call manually pre-stretching string.

    EDIT: I looked back over this thread and the OP said he did have a lockout (an old Alpha) and he like a boardy stringbed. So for his specific application two pulls would be better.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
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  38. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    I would agree with Drakulie. It will be different but that does not make it better. There will be greater initial tension loss if you pull once rather than twice. That is only a problem if you don't like the lower tension.

    Let's say the OP experiments with the same string at different tensions for several months. If he always pulls once, he will arrive at a tension that works perfectly for him. If he always pulled twice, he would still arrive at the same actual tension that works perfectly for him. The difference is that he will be using a higher setting on the single pull machine to compensate for the greater initial tension loss.

    In the end, it is exactly as Drakulie said - double pulling is not better just different.
     
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  39. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with you except for one thing. Because you must use higher tension to arrive at the same final result over time you could very well be causing more fatigue in the string with that initial higher pull. Then you end up with a racket you may or may not want to play with immediately. I think it is better for the string to put less stress on the string by using lower tensions to get to the same final tension and have a racket that feels good and results in less tension loss.

    EDIT: Also the OP said he did not like the lower tension and he likes the boardy feel and played with Kevlar mains I believe.

    From this post I am assuming he wants the lowest pulling tension that produces the highest final stringbed tension. Using a lockout machine that would be pulling more than once. Pre-stretching will not produce as high a tension as double pulling.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2012
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  40. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    It's all relative, if you want a tension of 60lbs, than on a lockout string at a higher tension, on constant pull, you shouldn't have to make any adjustments.

    I have a lockout, I don't double pull because there is a chance of deforming the string by the gripper.
     
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  41. Tennusdude

    Tennusdude Rookie

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    I have one customer who insists on double pulling every string. He used multifilament. He insists that when it is done, He stringbed remains firmer for a long period of time. He also claims it is the only time he has ever been satisfied with a string job. I guess everyone is different. I heard that polyester can be stretched too far which would ruin its playing characteristics. I have heard gut plays better when strung a bit on the tighter side, anyone find that to be true.
     
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  42. Irvin

    Irvin G.O.A.T.

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    When you set any electronic tension head to 60 lbs it works for any string. If you wanted 60 on a lockout for A poly string where would you set the tension? Does it matter what poly I use? Does it matter what the gauge is? What if I stitch to multifilament, synthetic gut, or natty gut? Do you think it is important to maintain relativity table so I know how much higher to set the tension on every kind of string to reach the real tension I want. Do you have such a table you would like to share with us?

    Maybe you work on the principle most people can't tell the difference between 2 lbs one way or another so anywhere from 58-62 is ok. I guess if that is true you could just raise it up 10% and tell your customers it is really 60 lbs.

    And I think he is right, if using a lockout.

    EDIT: I think it is easy to over stretch poly and only really like poly at low tensions. Natty gut is a little too lively for me and I like it much tighter than any other type of string. I prefer not to have large differences in tension between the mains and crosses and that is one reason I have not put a poly and gut hybrid in my racket.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2012
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