Would Seles have won more slams than Graf if not for the stabbing?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by tenniswriter, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    That was a point touched on earlier: Graf was not Seles' only problem as the next generation of players entered the scene. With their appearance, Seles would have a harder time winning majors, even in theory, one can argue against Seles ending up with a majors count closer to Graf.
     
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  2. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    We will have to agree to disagree. I think that W '04 win hurt Serena's pride immensely. Btw, I am more of a fan of Capriati than Sharapova so not sure why you are accusing me of being a Sharapova fanboy...


    I am not hoping, I believe she will defeat Serena again soon. Sharapova is still only 26 so who's to say she is not in her prime now?

    Anyway you bore me, I am finishing this conversation here.
     
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  3. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Seles > Hingis, between them in their prime Seles would likely to own her. And I like Hingis who's game is more pleasing to the eyes. Don't forget The Tennis Channel ranked Seles at #7(right behind Serena) and Hingis #13.
     
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  4. vandre

    vandre Hall of Fame

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    i friggin' LOVE this place! 3 pages into a thread about seles there's already a sw vs. masha agrument!!! :twisted:

    anyway, there is no doubt seles would have won more slams if she had not been stabbed. no one is arguing that. i think it's quite possible to expect that had she not been stabbed, she would have won at least 2 more aussies (between 93 and 96/ i'm saying 2 out of 3 just to allow for 1 off match in 3 years derailing her but you could also say that she'd go 3 for 3 during this time), at least one more french (she was having a good tear on the clay before the stabbing so i would have expected her to win there in 93 and its quite possible she would have won more there between 93 and 96 too i suppose) and i think she had a good chance to pick up 3 more us open titles between 92 and 96 (again allowing for one bad match in 4 years but she very well could have won all 4). i don't believe she wins any wimbledons during the time she was away from the game. just not her surface but if you really wanted to go out there you might be able to say that she would have had her best chance at a wimbledon title in 94 (no graf in the final). if you round high and add 11 slams to her total of 9 and subtract the slams graf won during the same time span, the final count flips to 20 for seles and 15 for graf. with that kind of a cushion (we rounded up) seles would still have had more slams even if she won 7 more slams between 93 and 96.
     
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  5. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Probably the pages of pro-Sharapova posts...your pro-Sharapova conflicts with NadalAgassi in more than one thread...


    Yeah. Ok. Keep dancing around the obvious.

    Good, because you going from thread to thread trying to sell Sharapova based on your fantasy that a fluke Wimbledon '04 win was some imagined "great agony" to Williams (enough to drive her repeated defeat of Sharapova for a decade) is nonsense.
     
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  6. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    You can't have this discussion without mentioning two other teen phenomenon's. I'll call these teen prodigy's "The Three M's"

    Maureen Connolly, Monica Seles, and Martina Hingis

    Maureen would have had an easier path towards surpassing Graf's GS totals because she won on all surfaces and was more consistent than Monica. Monica's lack of consistent athletic ability and inability to play well on grass makes me believe she would not have surprassed Graf.

    Martina Hingis is special in that she is the first great teen prodigy we actually watched the game pass-by shortly after dominating the game. Hingis literally couldn't keep-up with the changes in the sport.

    I think Maureen Connolly would have had an easier path to surpass Graf if her horse-riding accident hadn't occured vs Monica Seles without stabbing incident.

    AngieB
     
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  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    How do you beat peak Seles? with tactics, smart and self confidence.That was what Hingis was all about.She also had a very good record against the Williams, the best of all.
     
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  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Lenglen, Mills,Connolly and Bueno are the four pre open era Godess.
     
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  9. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    I agree. But we're not meant to say this kind of thing, because "the Seles incident was unique".
     
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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Seles was literally stabbed in the back whilst sitting down on a changeover during a sanctioned WTA Tour tennis match that she was playing in. Connolly had a tragic accident while riding her horse. You can't see the difference?
     
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  11. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    While the "act" of stabbing is unique in tennis history, a teenage tennis phenom removed from the sport at the top of their career because of injury is not.

    What's tough about Monica to gauge in this situation is how her grass game might or might not have advanced if the incident didn't happen.

    Monica's game was not made for grass court tennis. Her reach was limited by bilateral two-fisted groundies and natural athletic attributes wasn't her friend. Also, she grew taller during her absence which affected her movement and versatility on-court.

    However, she most certainly could have taken advantage of a weak year at Wimbledon like someone else said in this thread. '94.

    AngieB
     
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  12. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Seles' fitness is a fine point; she was strong, but not the physical specimen Graf was, or even like Pierce during the 2nd, majors winning half of her career. To be clear, Hingis was not either, but Seles had a tendency to get sloppy, but lacked natural physical gifts to make up for a lapse in fitness.

    Seles was enough for the "not Graf" part of her generation, however, if the stabbing never occured, we all know what would have happened a few years down the road, as the next generation took the big stage...
     
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  13. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Agreed. I liked a few others too :) But that is another thread another day.

    I only mentioned Maureen in this instance because she left the sport as an injured teen prodigy that had accomplished so much, so young like Monica.

    AngieB
     
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  14. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    This has been a loaded question in the past, simply because it often brings on a Graf-Seles debate that can go to ugly places. I loved both players, so that always frustrates me.

    My answer is "yes" she would have won more Slams. How many more, I don't know, but certainly more. She was stabbed at nearly her absolute peak, she was regularly winning Slams at the time. She missed 2.5 peak Slam seasons (10 Slams), so that conclusion isn't that hard for me to reach.

    Unsurprisingly, the question of "how many more Slams would Seles have won" is often interpreted simultaneously as "how many less Slams would Graf have won?" and if Graf wins less, there are GOAT implications, so it can get very messy very quickly.

    Of course all of this is speculation. But, again, I honestly believe she would have won more. As much as Graf's total? No. But, more. Maybe two more, maybe six. Assuming everything else in her life remains the same, Seles would still endure her father's death, foot injury, depression, weight gain, which hindered her career later, and, of course, natural decline and new, younger, competitive players. Her career would have slowed for any number of reasons had the stabbing not occurred. But, my point is, at the point of the stabbing, she was far from slow-down mode.

    She did win one Slam when she returned and certainly had chances for a few others, including her USO losses to Graf in 1995 and 1996. But, Graf outclassed her on those occasions. The one that really got away was the 1998 French Open final. She finally beat Hingis, who had been a pain for her, in the semis, and then lost to Sanchez-Vicario in three sets in the final, winning the second set 6-0. ASV's retrieving usually didn't bother Seles at all. Her lifetime record was 20-3 vs. ASV and she showed patches of dominance in that match, but all due credit to ASV for pulling it out.

    It was just a horrible incident, but it happened and history can't be changed. Seles ended as a tennis "great" anyway. As much as for her stature to be even higher, we can only give her credit for her actual achievements (which are great and many). Tracy Austin was great, and certainly could have won more than two Slams - but she was injury prone and we don't just elevate her overall because of what she could have, in theory, accomplished.

    On the other hand, nobody who "benefited" from Seles absence should ever be called into question. You take the challenge of what's ahead of you, compete against whoever is present. Winning a Slam is a remarkable achievement, even if a major player is absent. And, in Graf's case, it's not like she was some player who could hardly ever beat Seles (like, say Martinez or ASV, who won Slams when Seles was absent). Sure, she had lost to her in Slam finals and other matches in the years leading up to the stabbing, but she had beaten Seles as well. It was a good rivalry at the time, and it's a shame it could not have continued during the rest of 1993, 1994, and pre-USO 1995.
     
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  15. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    In terms of the hypothetical of how much both players might have won, no, there is no difference.
     
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  16. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    It's a crying shame what happened to Monica Seles back in 93. I liked her and a lunatic took her out of her zone unfairly. Monica was dominating the Slams.
    It's anyone's guess how things would have turned out if she hadn't been attacked, but I don't see any reason why Monica wouldn't have won 15 Slam events at least, given her youth, allowing for her maintaining her interest, luck with injuries etc, of course, before the new wave of players came along
    I think Steffi Graf would have won a few less, but still would have ended up with around 15-18 GS herself. Graf was a great competitor and athlete and many of the Seles-Graf matchups in the GS were tight struggles.
    I'm glad Monica did come back to win the Australian Open in 1996. I definitely rooted for her more after the assault on her.
     
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  17. fluffyyelloballz

    fluffyyelloballz Rookie

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    When Hingis peaked, Seles was out of shape and her poor mobility played right into Hingis's fine hands. If Seles had not been stabbed or had any derailments, then I am guessing she would not have gotten so out of shape and would have been more like the player who thrashed Hingis in the '98 French Open.

    However, had Seles been that player, might Hingis not have trained to prepare for that? Maybe have bulked up a little more? I think that is something to consider.
     
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  18. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Clay is the one surface Hingis always struggled against Seles. Even when Seles was in the worst shape of her entire post stabbing career in 1997 she should have beaten Hingis in both their matches on clay but choked at a critical juncture, while generally losing easy on hard courts. It is faulty to use the 98 French as what a fit Seles would always be able to do against Hingis. Hingis matches up terribly against an in form big hitter on clay, worse than any other surface, since her serves and forehands dont have enough bite to go through the clay, nor enough spin on them like Sanchez or Martinez or Sabatini to utilize the clay, and are made to sit up ready to be clobbered. That is why every single year from 1997-2001 in her prime she was taken out at Roland Garros by a big hitter, even Iva freaking Majoli powering her away in 97 when in any other surface Hingis would have jerked her to bits and crushed her (and did their other matches from late 96 onwards).

    Another thing to keep in mind is Seles post stabbing dominated everyone she dominated pre stabbing. Sanchez, Martinez, Huber, Majoli, Capriati (well to some extent, even pre stabbing their rivalry was close on hards and remained so with Seles still having the edge even there both times), etc....Her head to head rivalry with Graf was not really much different, she was 4-6 pre stabbing, and 1-4 post stabbing, but in both cases lost all the fast court meetings, and won about half the slow court ones. They just happened to have alot more fast court meetings in the second part is all. She struggled with Novotna, but her three pre stabbing matches to Novotna were a loss, a 3 set win on slow bouncy hard courts, and a tough 3 set win where Jana choked a huge lead away, and that was when Jana was nowhere near her future level as a player, so she was always going to be a tough head to head opponent. Pierce she barely played pre stabbing, and Pierce was a nothing at that point anyway, but a top power player when Seles returned. However Seles post stabbing faced alot of new players she hadnt faced before like Hingis, Davenport, Venus, Serena, and struggled badly with them. She may have done better with some of them had she been in better shape, more motivated, had the course of her life been different in many ways (and not just the stabbing), but safe to say anyone who struggled with post stabbing she was always going to struggle with to some extent, as anyone she owned pre stabbing she still owned post stabbing, which were 95% of the main tour and the same people, atleast at first.
     
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  19. fluffyyelloballz

    fluffyyelloballz Rookie

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    I get your point about the clay. But still, before the stabbing Seles was whooping the same players on Clay or hard and I don't think it would have been that different against Hingis if we consider Hingis' beatings at the hands of the power players once they developed then I think she would have struggled on hard courts versus a very developed '96 Seles.
     
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  20. bluetrain4

    bluetrain4 Legend

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    I misread the question as simply "would Seles have won more Slams if not for the stabbing," not "more than Graf".

    So, my previous answer of "yes" is in response to that question. I very much believe that she would have won more Slams. But, not more than Graf.
     
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  21. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I am not a big Hingis fan but there are alot of myths about her inability to play against any power hitters. The only power hitter who ever dominated and crushed Hingis for a brief period was Serena in late 2001-early 2002 when Serena was becoming SuperRena, and Hingis was already well past her prime and soon to retire.

    Davenport- their head to head was very close from start to finish. Davenport would probably have a losing record if she didnt suck so badly on clay they didnt even play there hardly ever.

    Venus- Hingis actually has a winning head to head. Even peak Venus didnt easily beat Hingis. She won two super tough 3 set matches with Hingis at Wimbledon 2000 and U.S Open 2000, the latter which Hingis should have won but didnt put away a simple overhead which turned the whole match around; then spanked Venus to bits at the Australian Open, before losing another tight one in Miami.

    Pierce- Hingis owns her actually. Many times dishing her bagels and breadsticks. Pierce is actually most similar to Seles in many ways, a rather slow power hitter with great accuracy and placement, and with a strong but not devastating serve. Pre stabbing Seles did move and defend much better than Pierce though, and was much mentally tougher.

    Capriati- Hingis has a winning record, and Capriati only started beating Hingis when she was really on decline.


    I dont know who you are referring to when you Seles was whooping the same players pre stabbing. There isnt a player in the pre stabbing field who was similar in playing style at all to Hingis, and Hingis is also a much beter player than anyone Seles was facing pre stabbing minus of course Steffi Graf (whom even during her dominance Seles was never whooping). The main point though is Hingis is a far better hard court or even carpet player than clay court player, so unless a player ripped her one on those surfaces I remain unconvinced they actually could, and when it comes to grass I will be kind and not even bother speculating on a post peak Seles vs a Wimbledon winner.

    As for a way better than ever Seles in 96, who knows. I tend to think her peak tennis and career was always going to be 91-95 (and IMO less dominant in 93-95 than 91-92). I see her still struggling to deal with her fathers illness and death, her growth spurt and new body, and her always present (even pre stabbing, by her own admission) lack of desire to train in the gym combined with her lack of natural athletic ability, along with the injuries, catching up to her to some degree by around that time anyway. I do think she could have been stronger in 96-98 without the stabbing but I certainly dont see dominance by that stage. Best case maybe slowing down to the 1 slam a year pace by then, which with the stabbing she had been slowed to by 95-96 instead.
     
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  22. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Maureen would have been hands down the best ever with the horse riding accident. Without question. She would have won over 30 slams. There wouldnt even be anyone to remotedly challenge her until Bueno in 59-60, and then to a greater degree Court in 62. Until then she would win every slam she entered without question.



    You should see the Mo Connolly movie. It is a very emotional moment when she meets up with her old coach Eleanor Tenant, who she had been estranged from for years after their split up, only weeks before she died of cancer. Of course they arent the real people, but it potrays it much like it actually happened apparently.
     
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  23. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    I rank Graf, Navratilova and Evert ahead of Serena. It's insulting to those players (who have more slams, way more titles, more time at No 1, better streaks/consistency, didn't take time out of the game and had much better reputations for sportsmanship) to rank Serena ahead of them as GOAT.
     
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  24. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Good point, but consider Martina beat the hell out of the Williams younger sister a few lots of times...
     
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  25. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Wasn't Connolly planning to turn professional at the end of 1954? That puts the 30 majors prediction out the window, and the talk of Bueno and Court rivalries.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
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  26. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    How you handle grief is a composite of your life experience and mental/ emotional state beforehand.

    Seles was in many ways a more emotionally rounded and mature woman secondary to unintended consequences of that forced break outside the 'tunnel' vision that so many child prodigies absorb in their isolation from a larger social circle.

    Before the stabbing, life was about pleasing mom, dad and coaches with better and better focus and discipline. In that dynamic, response to the cancer is as limited as your life experience. Maybe she buries her response by working harder and focusing on Winning for her parents.

    after your mortality has been threatened, the world looks bigger than a tennis court, you take the time to smell the roses, enjoy the taste and aroma of life and put your profession in perspective as part of what life is about . You get counseling, and meet people outside the tennis world. Going back into the tennis tunnel gets harder and you make sure there are windows in that tunnel because it is emotionally healthier.

    And that means grief is no longer seen as a distraction from your profession after a stabbing but a bigger process, I would hope so. The cancer and death would have a different impact on Seles' tennis after a stabbing than had she not been stabbed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
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  27. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Agree. NadalAgassi has absolutely no respect to these 3 legends despite he has read countless of my posts that listed all of the top players achievements/stats. Those numbers are FACT and if it doesn't sink in, nothing will. Some people are just too dense.
     
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  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hingis was a very bad injury case.

    I wonder what she could have achieved if she would have never gone through that...
     
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  29. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    The foot injury and Hingis' subsequent lawsuit against the shoe manufacturer (which was later dismissed) revealed just how much in denial Martina was about the state of her tennis during that time period.

    When you compare Martina Hingis' initial retirement to Maureen Connolly and Monica Seles', you see one stark contrast.

    When Monica and Maureen stepped away from the game, they were winning grand slam titles and were largely considered the best in the world.
    When Martina retired, she was no longer winning grand slam events and had already lost her air of invicibility. Martina's decline came long before injury.

    Martina's "foot injury" was only an excuse for what everyone already knew. The game had passed her by.

    AngieB
     
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  30. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    to rank Serena ahead of them as GOAT.[/QUOTE]

    Graf is the female GOAt, but Evert and other ex-pros have already rated Serena higher than Evert herself, Martina, King and others. Do not allow yourself to be confused by hatred.
     
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  31. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yet, you refuses to accept Laver claimed Roger is the goat.

    Do not allow yourself to be confused by hatred.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2013
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  32. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    That's probably modesty on Evert's behalf. If we look at her overall career numbers, they are more impressive than Serena's. And I don't hate Serena, but I do dislike some of her behaviour, and I dislike people promoting her to GOAT status, which is (at best) premature.
     
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  33. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Anyone besides me think we are better off discussing Seles and Graf in this thread, rather than Evert, Navratilova or Serena. I smell trouble.
     
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  34. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Very true. Graf is #1 all time, Serena is #2, and Navratilova is a strong #3. Most everyone realizes that. Serena needs the Grand Slam to surpass Graf, a prerequisite for any female or male GOAT. In terms of playing abiilty Serena is the best of all, above Graf, and the great Graf herself has admited this, but the lack of the Grand Slam is the only thing keeping her from GOAT status.
     
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  35. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    ROTFL it is only killing me with laughter that the best you can do is one experts opinion not from TODAY, but from several years ago, before Serena won many more big titles, dominated tennis at age 31/32 which nobody in womes tennis history has ever done, and after coming back from a life threatening injury. You are such a desperate and hopeless fool. This is even worth than you using a yahoo blog by a guy nobody has ever heard of as your "expert" opinion witness.

    As for being a tier below Graf and Navratilova, Navratilova herself says Serena is right up with herself and Graf, and given that she is the most egotistical champion in history (apart from perhaps Federer), that in itself already ends up disputing the matter. The sheer audacity and hilarity of the creepish The Master Fool/MotherMarjorie/DropShotArtist/MonFed/aphex poster calling anyone else a lunatic is the icing on the cake.
     
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  36. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Where did you hear this? It is the first time I have heard it. Do you have a link about it. That would be interesting to know. I have heard she wasnt really loving tennis anymore by that point, even before the accident.
     
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  37. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    http://law.justia.com/cases/california/cal2d/49/483.html

    From the link:

     
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  38. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Hoping some of this discussion leads to a thread about Alice Marble, Pauline Betz, Shirley Fry, Margaret Osbourne DuPont, Louise Brough, Doris Hart, Althea Gibson among others.

    But to answer your question, I'm mystified how folks talk about the Graf-Seles rivalry as though it culminated into a historic note. Given what we witnessed with Navratilova-Evert, theirs seems quite insignificant. While I agree that it would be prudent to keep on-topic in this thread (Graf-Seles), historically-speaking it is an exercise of futility.

    AngieB
     
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  39. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I acquiece to popular demand. We should retitle the thread. What Serena needs is more clay cred! Her record on the dirt is even more paltry than Martina!
     
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  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    If that is true where do you place Gran Slammers Connolly and Court?
    Court opponents in 70 like peak King ( all timer), Wade, Casals and young Evonne being muxh tougher than the likes of old Navy,Zvereva or Sabarin 88i Geaf faced in
     
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  41. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    Nonsense. Navratilova's and Evert's resumes are better than Serena's at this point in time. One could also argue Court's resume is better, although given that she won so many AOs in an extremely weak field, I do not buy that.

    The weird thing is, I actually think Serena can become GOAT, even without a Grand Slam year (which is not, as you state, "a prerequisite" to be the male or female GOAT). I just think she is not there yet and it's insulting to Navratilova and Evert to place her above them.

    PS. When Navratilova talks about Serena's status, she's referring to her ability/peak play, not her achievements. I think Nav knows that Serena has not surpassed her achievements.
     
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  42. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yeah right. You’re just butt hurt since you know experts/histiorians has Serena at #4 - #6 in all time great. So what if she added another slam to make it 15, her achievements are still inferior to the other great and only a fool like to rank Serena above them. Who gives a crap about her winning at 31 years old, the bottom line the career achievement and her resume put her in tier #2 great.

    Show me where Martina/Chris said Serena is the goat? You keep clinging on their opinions but never provided their quotes. They may say she’s one of all time great but that doesn’t means she’s goat material, just like Seles is one of all time great but not goat material either. And even if they said Serena is the goat, the data doesn’t back it up, but you’re too stupid to know the difference between 22 and 15, 377 and 133, 167 and 47, etc…

    Most GS titles
    player total
    1 Steffi Graf 22
    2 Martina Navratilova 18
    2 Chris Evert 18
    4 Serena Williams 15
    5 Margaret Court 11
    6 Monica Seles 9
    7 Billie Jean King 8
    8 Justine Henin 7
    8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 7
    8 Venus Williams 7

    Most GS finals
    Rank Name Total
    1 Chris Evert 34 (18 )
    2 Martina Navrátilová 32 (18 )
    3 Steffi Graf 31 (22)
    4 Evonne Goolagong 18 (7)
    5 Serena Williams 19 (15)
    6 Venus Williams 14 (7)
    7 Monica Seles 13 (9)
    8 Margaret Court 12 (11)
    8 Martina Hingis 12 (5)
    8 Billie Jean Moffitt 12 (8 )

    Most single titles
    Rank Player Singles
    1 Martina Navratilova 167
    2 Chris Evert 157
    3 Steffi Graf 107
    4 Margaret Court 92
    5 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 68
    6 Billie Jean King 67
    7 Lindsay Davenport 55
    8 Virginia Wade 55
    9 Monica Seles 53
    10 Serena Williams 47*

    Most weeks at #1
    Rank Player weeks
    1 Steffi Graf 377
    2 Martina Navratilova 332
    3 Chris Evert 260
    4 Martina Hingis 209
    5 Monica Seles 178
    6 Serena Williams * 133
    7 Justine Henin 117
    8 Lindsay Davenport 98
    9 Caroline Wozniacki* 67
    10 Victoria Azarenka* 45

    Consecutive weeks at #1
    1 Steffi Graf (1) 186
    2 Martina Navratilova (1) 156
    3 Chris Evert (1) 113
    4 Steffi Graf (2) 94
    5 Monica Seles (1) 91
    6 Martina Navratilova (2) 90
    7 Steffi Graf (3) 87
    8 Martina Hingis (1) 80
    9 Chris Evert (2) 76
    10 Martina Hingis (2) 73

    Year end No. 1 players
    player year
    Steffi Graf 8
    Martina Navratilova 7
    Chris Evert 5
    Lindsay Davenport 4
    Justine Henin 3
    Martina Hingis
    Monica Seles
    Caroline Wozniacki 2
    Serena Williams 2
    Jelena Jankovic 1
    Victoria Azarenka 1


    All surface single winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Margaret Court 593 56 91.37
    2 Chris Evert 1309 146 89.97
    3 Steffi Graf 902 115 88.69
    4 Martina Navratilova 1442 219 86.82
    5 Serena Williams*[1] 554 108 83.68
    6 Monica Seles 595 122 82.98
    7 Justine Henin* 503 109 82.18
    8 Billie Jean King 695 155 81.76
    9 Evonne Goolagong Cawley 704 165 81.01

    Clay court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Chris Evert 310 20 93.94
    2 Steffi Graf 273 30 90.1
    3 Justine Henin* 130 22 85.83
    4 Monica Seles 142 25 85.03
    5 Martina Hingis 109 25 81.34
    6 Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.12
    7 Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80
    8 Maria Sharapova 79 20 79.80
    9 Serena Williams 104 29 78.20
    8 Venus Williams 143 40 78.14


    Hard court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Steffi Graf 335 36 90.3
    2 Chris Evert 304 37 89.15
    3 Martina Navratilova 340 48 87.63
    4 Monica Seles 311 59 84.05
    5 Serena Williams* 333 60 84.73
    6 Kim Clijsters 323 69 82.40
    7 Justine Henin 251 56 81.76
    8 Venus Williams* 335 80 80.72
    9 Maria Sharapova* 264 66 80
    10 Lindsay Davenport 469 116 80.17

    Grass court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Martina Navratilova 305 39 88.66
    2 Chris Evert 184 25 88.04
    3 Serena Williams* 63 10 86.30
    4 Venus Williams* 74 11 85.39
    5 Steffi Graf 85 15 85
    6 Maria Sharapova* 65 13 83.33
    7 Justine Henin 53 11 82.81
    8 Jana Novotna 79 21 79
    9 Tracy Austin 43 12 78.18
    10 Kim Clijsters 56 16 77.78


    Carpet court singles career winning percentage
    Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
    1 Martina Navratilova 516 58 89.9
    2 Steffi Graf 189 23 89.2
    3 Chris Evert 209 39 84.3
    4 Serena Williams* 34 7 82.93
    5 Martina Hingis 97 23 80.83
    6 Kim Clijsters 50 13 79.37
    = Monica Seles 98 26 79.03
    8 Lindsay Davenport 93 27 77.5
    9 Tracy Austin 85 25 77.27
    10 Venus Williams* 50 17 74.63

    Most singles matches won
    Player Wins
    1 Martina Navratilova 1442
    2 Chris Evert 1309
    3 Steffi Graf 902
    4 Virginia Wade 839
    5 Arantxa Sánchez Vicario 759
    6 Lindsay Davenport 753
    7 Conchita Martínez 739
    8 Evonne Goolagong Cawley[5] 704
    9 Billie Jean King 695
    10 Gabriela Sabatini 632

    Most match winning streak(all surfaces)
    Rank Player Matches
    1 Martina Navratilova 74
    2 Steffi Graf 66
    3 Martina Navratilova 58
    4 Margaret Court 57
    5 Chris Evert 55
    6 Martina Navratilova 54
    7 Steffi Graf 46
    8 Steffi Graf 45
    9 Steffi Graf 44
    10 Martina Navratilova 41

    Most consecutive singles titles
    1. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
    2. 12 - Margaret Court (1972-1973)
    3. 11 - Steffi Graf (1989-1990)
    4. 10 - Chris Evert (1974)
    5. 9 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
    5. 9 - Margaret Court (1970)
    7. 8 - Steffi Graf (1988 )
    7. 8 - Martina Navratilova (1983)

    Best annual singles winning percentage
    1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
    2 Steffi Graf 97.7
    3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
    4 Steffi Graf 97.4
    5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
    6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
    7 Steffi Graf 96
    8 Margaret Court 95.3
    9 Chris Evert 94.9
    10 Margaret Court 94.8


    Most consecutive years winning at least one singles title
    1. 21 - Martina Navratilova (1974-1994)
    2. 18 - Chris Evert (1971-1988 )
    3. 14 - Steffi Graf (1986-1999)
    4. 11 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970-1980)
    4. 11 - Virginia Wade (1968-1978 )
    6. 9 - Sandra Cecchini (1984-1992)
    6. 9 - Margaret Court (1968-1976)
    6. 9 - Lindsay Davenport (1993-2001)
    6. 9 - Conchita Martinez (1988-1996)
    6. 9 - Arantxa Sanchez Vicario (1988-1996)

    Most singles titles won in a year
    1. 21 - Margaret Court (1970)
    2. 18 - Margaret Court (1969, 1973)
    3. 17 - Billie Jean King (1971)
    4. 16 - Chris Evert (1974, 1975)
    4. 16 - Martina Navratilova (1983)
    6. 15 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1970)
    6. 15 - Martina Navratilova (1982)
    8. 14 - Margaret Court (1968 )
    8. 14 - Steffi Graf (1989)
    8. 14 - Martina Navratilova (1986)
    11. 13 - Martina Navratilova (1984)
    12. 12 - Chris Evert (1973, 1976)
    12. 12 - Evonne Goolagong Cawley (1971)
    12. 12 - Martina Navratilova (1985)
    15. 11 - Tracy Austin (1980)
    15. 11 - Chris Evert (1977)
    15. 11 - Steffi Graf (1987, 1988 )
    15. 11 - Martina Navratilova (1978, 1979)
     
    #92
  43. fluffyyelloballz

    fluffyyelloballz Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    I have to say, those above stats are pretty damning. Things not looking good on the Serena is goat front.
     
    #93
  44. High street sw19

    High street sw19 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2013
    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    Off Church road
    If anyone ever meets any agent from IMG ask them about the "Stabbing", it didn't really require much medial attention....mmm
     
    #94
  45. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    10,518
    The Grand slam is the ultimate prize--once one reaches that platform, they should be considered equal, as it is only that distinction which is recognized as being the achievement of a GOAT.
     
    #95
  46. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,212
    So you and NadalAgassi should accept Court > Serena.
     
    #96
  47. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    LOL so suddenly you become a Court defender when it is YOU who blatantly disrespect Court by not even posting her TWENTY FOUR slams in your biased and manipulated list(s) and her ONE HUNDRED NINETY NINE tournament wins. Then again dismissing the stats of Pre Open player greats is neccessary, as it is the only way to potray your lover boy Federer as any kind of potential GOAT.
     
    #97
  48. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,212
    No. I never believe the GS is the be-all and end-all to qualify for a goat. It's thundervolley and you who invented this illogical fallacy. It's your rule so you must follow it....Court > Serena.
     
    #98
  49. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2007
    Messages:
    10,518
    You are obsessing on Serena again.

    What is the lone criteria for GOAT for decades? Said at the time when players such as Court, Graf and Laver won, it is winning the Grand Slam, not irrelevant, random stats (ex. weeks at #1, finals appearances, etc.), which some use to pad the sheet of players never talented/dominant enough to win the Grand Slam.

    Figure it out, junior.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
    #99
  50. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2009
    Messages:
    21,212
    Goat criteria is based on player's entire achievement, and that is coming from every experts/historians/ex-players(eg TTC). However that is too much for simple minded like you to understand.

    by your own admission...Court > Serena.
     

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