Would Seles have won more slams than Graf if not for the stabbing?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by tenniswriter, Apr 16, 2013.

  1. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    TMF,

    Where do you find these cool (and accesible) statistics?
     
  2. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    Wrong.

    You were not around to hear players, sports media, etc. calling Laver the GOAT when he won the Grand Slam, or the same when Graf won hers--and both were nowhere near the end of their careers at the point it was achieved. The GOAT distinction centered on the Grand Slam. If you were even remotely aware of this, you would not post irrelevant pad jobs as an attempt to make up for a certain player's eternal failure--the failure which forever removes him from any GOAT consideration.

    It was not meant to be.
     
  3. Talker

    Talker Hall of Fame

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    Serena only has 47 titles, not even best 5.

    She is so short on so many areas it's a joke.
    Don't bring her up anymore.
     
  4. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I've compiled this list long time ago and save it on my PC.
     
  5. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    No, you're wrong. This is the expert's criteria in order of most important:

    * Number of Major Titles won
    * Overall performance at Grand Slam Events
    * Player Ranking
    * Performance at ATP/WTA events
    * Performance at Davis & Fed Cup events
    * Records held or broken
    * Intangibles(contribuition to tennis)


    You were not around when these legends said Roger is the greatest.

    "I have to give it to him," he said. "He's won all the majors[15] now, and he will win a few more. So in my book he is."
    -Sampras

    For me he is the greatest player ever to play the game
    -Borg

    Roger is just the greatest player of all time
    -McEnroe

    Roger Federer certainly is my claim to be the best of all time if there is such a thing
    -Laver




    Again...

    by your own admission...Court > Serena.
     
  6. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    You should add a majors semifinalist listing. Recognise the difference between losing in the first or second round and making it to the final four. It shows consistency in achievement if you are a constant threat to win majors right up to the end of the tournament.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2013
  7. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Unfortunately that will never happen. :evil:
     
  8. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0917.html

    "Although she had hoped to resume her tennis career upon recovery--probably as a professional--the injury proved more serious than was originally thought and she announced her retirement in February, 1955."

    "Until her death, Mrs. Brinker had devoted herself to teaching the game to youngsters."

    I was always under the impression that Maureen's decision to turn professional came after and as a result of the accident. She wanted to teach youth tennis.

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...jErAAAAIBAJ&sjid=RJkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4580,1259399

    Angie B





    Angie B
     
  9. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    You would not waste endless hours trolling threads / defending Federer's weak record if you believed he was a GOAT. You would not need to make inane comments revealing how you had no idea the Grand Slam was considered the greatest tennis achievement...or it is just a matter of you saying anything to pump Federer's Grand Slam-less record.

    He was not talented / dominant enough to win the Grand Slam.
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Guys lets talk bout serious questions now
    I miss Martina love& hate relationship with Annia
    How lovely both together at 2010 Wimbledon
    Best tennis picture in years
     
  11. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Throughout the years, there have been many stories about Maureen's early retirement that have circulated the tennis community.

    The first being, that her original plan was to quit tennis and marry Norman Brinker before the horseriding accident. The second is that Maureen had planned before the horseriding accident to turn professional in 1954 after the US Championships. Maureen's decision to marry and turn professional were both made after her accident.

    As we have learned from other retired professionals (Agassi, Graf, etc) some who excelled at the sport in their youth weren't necessarily in love with playing tennis all the time. It is no secret that Maureen also had similar dark feelings about tennis.

    The revelations about her transition into professional tennis came as a result of a lawsuit she filed against the Cement company that caused her horseriding accident. Monetary damages had to be assessed by the standard of playing professionally which is how a dollar figured was determined. However, that revelation and monetary assessment by no means should be used as an attempt to change tennis history.

    The horseriding accident set forth a series of career-changing decisions for Maureen. We don't really know what Maureen would or wouldn't have done if the horseriding accident hadn't happened. However, if we apply other like-minded pros in tennis history who felt the same way about tennis as she did in her youth, Maureen likely would have followed their similar path and continued playing grand slam tennis.

    Angie B
     
  12. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Let me know whenever historians/experts say the GS is a must to be a goat and everything else is meaningless. As you have ridiculously claimed:


    He's the only talented player to win 17 slams, 300+ weeks at #1 and hold most of the tennis records. It's not a secret that ex-players anointed Federer is the greatest player of all time.

    "I have to give it to him," he said. "He's won all the majors[15] now, and he will win a few more. So in my book he is."
    -Sampras

    For me he is the greatest player ever to play the game
    -Borg

    Roger is just the greatest player of all time
    -McEnroe

    Roger Federer certainly is my claim to be the best of all time if there is such a thing
    -Laver
     
  13. THUNDERVOLLEY

    THUNDERVOLLEY G.O.A.T.

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    ^ Evidence you have no knowledge of tennis history and the distinction of the Grand Slam before the start date of your obsession (sometime in the 2000s).

    That is the only way to explain your attempt to pump up the career of the Grand Slam-less Federer.

    On his best day, he was not talented / dominant enough to reach that level.
     
  14. fluffyyelloballz

    fluffyyelloballz Rookie

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    When Graf won the Grand Slam in 1988, it was huge. The first player to do it on four different surfaces-when they were actually different. She, herself, was very calm about it all but her doing it in the twilight years of two greats in Navratilova and Evert, players she also effectively put out to pasture, made it look even more of an achievement.
    In fact, for a while, even up until 1991, Graf was widely acknowledged as potentially the greatest player of all time.
    Which is why people's claim that it was only because Seles got stabbed that she achieved that status surprises me. As if pre-Seles she was some sort of scrub. When Seles got stabbed, Graf was a Golden slam winning, four time Wimbledon champ who ended the year end number one four times and in three of those years was the only number one. Not only that but she had won more than 70 titles before the stabbing!
    Graf was already going to be on the GOAT list stabbing or not.
     
  15. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    I hear all of this discussion about GOAT in women's tennis and haven't heard one peep about Helen Wills Moody. She is easily in the top five for consideration but rarely is she discussed.

    Part of me believes this lack of recognition is generational and newer fans of the sport aren't as historically privy. We all know that her grand slam totals are deflated because like so many others, never made the trip to Australia. Had Helen got on that boat, this conversation about Graf-Seles would be irrevelant.

    AngieB
     
  16. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I think to ignore her own testimony about her intentions, and replace it with "like-minded pros in tennis history" is ridiculous. I can't think of a more spacious notion than to believe you can condense, measure or compare 'like minded pros', after you have figured out how each has felt in their youth about tennis and exclude those who are disimilar.

    I am inclined to accept her own documented account of her intentions absent documented proof she had different intentions.
     
  17. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    What about Suzanne Lenglen?
     
  18. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Hall of Fame

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    Most people dismiss Moody and Lenglen because they played before the open era back in the stone age of tennis. That and the "weak competition" argument keeps getting thrown around in regards to both of them as well. Both were amazing and decimated everyone year in year out. They definitely deserve credit but for many, if they haven't seen them play on TV or on YouTube they don't even get mentioned. What some may not realize is before Court came along Moody and Wills were the only ones in the double digits for slams on then ladies side and they were the standard. Court came along and then Martina Chris and Steffi in quick succession and all of a sudden no one cares.

    Both were so good they have amazing records
    Lenglen won the 1920 singles gold medal at the Olympics losing only 4 games(3 of which were in one match), she won 3 medals in that olympics as well. She won at least 7 tournaments without dropping a game and I believe never lost a major final.

    Moody went like 7 years not dropping a set and at all but 2 majors she entered she made the finals (the other 2 were defaulted due to an appendectomy)

    Sadly that was to long ago so very few seem go give them the credit they deserve.

    However I think it is unfair to say had wills played the Aussie graf wouldn't be in the picture...with 22 majors she sure would be.
     
  19. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    If Maureen had stated her intentions of remaining amateur and playing grand slam tennis during this legal proceeding, she would not have been awarded monetary damages related to estimated professional wages, endorsements, etc. lost. Remember, she sued for monetary damages in a legal proceeding and had to prove a monetary loss from professional tennis that did not exist in grand slam amateur tennis in the 1950's. Maureen had ample motivation during that legal proceeding to state her intention was to turn professional.

    It really boils down to intent before and after the accident. I always believed that before the accident, she had no intention of turning professional. After the accident, she probably knew she couldn't endure the rigors of amateur grand slam tennis and chose to play professionally with less strenuous exhibition scheduling. During this window, Maureen learned she couldn't play competitively anymore, which prompted the lawsuit.

    AngieB
     
  20. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Thank you for your eloquent response. I enjoyed the read.

    As it pertains to Wills Moody and Graf, its not so much I think Graf wouldn't be in the picture. But if Wills Moody had played the Australian Championships, her grand slam singles total would stand today as best ever.

    Just even in this thread you see Helen's name omitted from lists of grand slam singles winners. Its just the oddest thing I've ever seen. She won (19), more than Navratilova, Evert, and Williams and she's given absolutely no credit. The Open Era champions had the advantage of travel, medicine and technology that Helen's generation didn't.

    About Suzanne Lenglen. Abbreviated. It sounds and looks weird, but I can't shake that feeling. While she was the first woman to turn professional and headline an exhibition alongside other male professionals, her early career was largely affected by World War I, travel, and to large degree, health, later. I think Serena Williams best exudes her spirit. Bold, trend-setting.

    AngieB
     
  21. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Top Grand Slam Singles Winners (Women)

    1. Margaret Court 24
    2. Steffi Graf 22
    3. Helen Wills Moody 19
    4. Chris Evert 18
    5. Martina Navratilova 18
    6. Serena Williams 15
    7. Billie Jean King 12
    8. Maureen Connolly Brinker 9
    9. Monica Seles 9
    10. Suzanne Lenglen 8
    10. Molla Bjurstedt Mallory 8
     
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It is between Court and Graf with Navratilova,Wills,Connolly coming close.
     
  23. DMan

    DMan Professional

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    Oh darling, NadalAgassi gurl! I'm back! Happy to see me, my dear? :) :twisted:

    Shall we take tea, and discuss your latest missive, on the world's most over discussed topic?

    Graf, #1 all-time. Shirley, my dear, YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS! Precious Mons is always #1 all-time. I'm simply verklempt you haven't kept your promise to always speak the truth!
     
  24. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    At the risk of sounding too tough on Martina, I would describe her competitive nature as that of a sociopath. She used every aspect of tennis, the court and psychology to gain advantage over her competitors during her youth. She employed these tactics often and with vigor during a time when most other teenagers were preoccupied with boyfriends, clothes and popularity. Her mental attributes are among the strongest in tennis teen phenom history. I would not want to cross her or pass her in a dark alley alone.

    AngieB
     
  25. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Monica is currently 10th best all time behind Graf, Serena, Navratilova, Evert, Court, Wills Moody, Lenglen, Connolly, and King. No shame being top 10 all time.

    Graf is #1 for now, but if Serena wins 4 in a row again, or goes over 20 slams, she will probably have to give up her crown.
     
  26. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    I rate Wills higher than Lenglen since she travelled both sides of the border to win, while Lenglen mostly stayed in Europe and took on all comers there. When she travelled to the U.S she got beaten via a mid match retirement, and never returned. Lenglen also retired once Wills emerged and she had a scare from her in their first meeting, while Wills continued playing amateur and then slam tennis alot longer.

    Wills and her numbers also stand out much more still today. 19 slams, more than Chris and Martina, 8 Wimbledons more than Graf and all but Navratilova, the most combined French-Wimbledon-U.S Open sever.

    I could see one rating Wills as the #1 all time actually, and a good argument for atleast being top 5. Lenglen is more in the 5-8 range somewhere.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2013
  27. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Your discussion certainly sheds light on the constraints of grand slam tennis in the 1920's and 1930's as an amateur. It was Suzanne Lenglen who illuminated the problem by pointing out the financial limitations of playing grand slam tennis as an amateur vs being a paid professional.

    Being the first woman to turn professional, Suzanne was forced to defend her position. She poignantly explained how the investment of playing tennis for years as an amateur and not being paid was leaving players without anything to show once they left the sport. Suzanne noted that turning into a paid professional was the next logical step leaving the amateur ranks. She also indicated these limitations halted the advancement of tennis, because only well-to-do athletes could afford to play grand slam amateur tennis consistently. Very outspoken for a woman of her era.

    There was about a five year period in Suzanne's teen years during and after World War I when amateur grand slam events weren't played in Europe that hindered her total grand slam singles wins. It is conceivable that she "might" have won three to five more grand slam singles titles in Europe during that period.

    While Suzanne certainly defended Europe well, her decision to rarely leave Europe for grand slam events might have hurt her historically. But given the travel constraints placed upon players pre-flight era, its easy to see why her total numbers are less than what you expect from someone of her stature. Some might say that her father's control over her career might hold some culpability. She was great, nonetheless.

    The Open Era champions had far less obstacles to face than of previous decades (2 World Wars, antiquated technology, less transcontinental flight, limited medicine). Its why I think Suzanne Lenglen and Helen Wills Moody accomplishments deserve a second-look in the GOAT discussions. Especially Helen Wills Moody.


    AngieB
     
  28. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    true, she was a demon disguissed in angel¡¡¡ while Kournikova was an agel disguissed in a demon
     
  29. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Its not that I don't understand your theory and yes there is an economic motive to lie. Its just you are turning her into a perjurer in civil court and assigning greed as the motive. Well, if you are the sort of person who is money hungry, you turn pro earlier rather than later. There can't have been much more she wanted to achieve on the Amateur grind, or much of challenge in those women she was creaming. What was there to stay for?

    I guess I am looking for you to provide something to show she intended to stay amateur for several more years besides your gut. I can at least show something suggesting a future plan.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  30. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Perjurer? Money hungry? Greed? Wow, you really know how to turn up the drama. Not playing.

    AngieB
     
  31. AngieB

    AngieB Hall of Fame

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    Just in case someone forgot to read (re: Maureen Connolly)

    http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/0917.html


    "Although she had hoped to resume her tennis career upon recovery--probably as a professional--the injury proved more serious than was originally thought and she announced her retirement in February, 1955."

    AngieB
     
  32. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    Tell me where I am misunderstanding. From the appellate decision,

    ." The accident occurred in July 1954, and it had been plaintiff's intention to take part in the United States championship tournament and then turn professional in October. She planned to go on a three-months' professional tennis tour, for which she had been offered a percentage of the receipts, with a guarantee of $30,000. It was estimated that she would have received $62,500 if the tour had continued outside the United States, that she would have received additional sums from various sources, such as endorsements of sporting goods and other articles, and that she would have cleared $50,000 during that year. Other witnesses estimated that her earnings during her first year as a professional would have been [49 Cal.2d 489] $75,000. There was evidence that plaintiff had not yet reached the peak of her career and that she could expect at least seven or eight years' participation as a professional.."http://scocal.stanford.edu/opinion/connolly-v-pre-mixed-concrete-co-26862

    Aren't you suggesting that she had not actually planned to accept such an offer at that time, despite what she told the court to establish a foundation for real damages? Then the jury, the civil court and the appelate court were mislead by such statements when damages were awarded based on those false statements to the court? .

    Sounds like a rather serious charge you are making and greed would be the motive . I do not see any grounds for it . There is no reason to believe that she did not intend to do precisely what she claimed and you are offering zero evidence.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013

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