Would you make this call in a match?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Blask, May 3, 2009.

  1. Blask

    Blask Semi-Pro

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    This happened on the court next to me and wanted to get some opinions. USTA doubles match, lost the first set 6-7. The serving team is down 0-2 in the second set but up 40-30 in the game. Serving from the ad court obviously, the server hits a ball that is unusually long and obviously out. The service returner who was creeping up to take the ball short deliberately hits the ball out of the air to move it out of the way and get ready for a 2nd serve.

    If you were the server, would you call that game since the returner didn't let the ball bounce?
     
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  2. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    If the returning team touches a serve that has not bounced yet, they lose the point. If it is a USTA match, I would take the point. If it is just a friendly match among friends, maybe not.


     
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  3. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    No, I wouldn't.

    J
     
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  4. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    Not even in a league match???
     
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  5. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Not even on Centre Court at Wimbledon.

    I would like to think I was a better person than that.

    J
     
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  6. Blask

    Blask Semi-Pro

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    Not that I disagree with you, but I'm curious what part of making a legitimate rule call would make you not a good person.
     
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  7. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    It's just a game....

    If it was REALLY a friendly match we can play by the rules and let it go....

    (without all the talk about "being a better person", etc.....)

    But actually it's really that person's call anyway, they can always lie and say they didnt touch it. All you can do it ask them if they touched it, and if they say yes, then they lose the point.
     
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  8. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    I just would have a problem taking a point if I missed a shot so badly that it didn't even come close to its target.

    If I knew the ball was going out, and he knew it, who cares if he touches it, catches it, whatever.

    To me the object of playing is to get better. And claiming points for stupid crap doesn't further that objective.

    J
     
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  9. Mada

    Mada Rookie

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    I partly agree with jolly and with the OP. I would probably not take the point, but a rule is a rule. Some people would take the point. I would tell my opponent I will not penalize him but I would warn him that it is against the rules and some future opponent may do what I did not.
     
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  10. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    It depends. You say the receiver was moving in closer to the service line at the time. Is it possible that the receiver just coudn't get out of the way in time (rather than hitting it deliberately knowing it was out)? Or that it was not a reflexive sticking-out of the racket on the part of the receiver?

    Basically, if I thought it might have been involuntary on the part of the receiver, I would claim the point. That's the price to pay for moving in on the serve. But if it is clear that it was voluntary and that he was just clearing the ball then I would not claim the point. Even though the rules allow you to, I think it would set an unpleasant tone for the rest of the match.
     
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  11. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    The funny thing is most people I play will not try to touch the ball, voluntary or otherwise. They know they lose the point if it touches them so they try to avoid it. (unless there is obvious circumstances that require them to catch it, like a hole in the fence with a cliff behind it and man-eating tigers, etc....)

    The rare person I find who cant help themselves always seems to be the person who sets the unpleasant tone for the match.

    Most matches that I play in though, even if just for "fun", consist of people who care about winning by the rules. We watched tennis on TV as kids and played high school tennis and making up some game outside of that is not really "fun".

    However if I find myself in another crowd (permanant court time leagues, mixers, etc...), I usually dont say anything because they tend to play by their own rules anyway.

    As far as being a better person for not calling it, Im sorry any reasoning you come up with can be countered. So you were hitting the ball out?? So what??

    If you were going to hit it out and they hit it in mid-air and THEIR ball went out, you wouldnt give them the point. Most people would just say "whew!!", they saved your point.

    It's unfortuanate for them and good for you, but that's tennis. Get over it, just move on....
     
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  12. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    What is to counter?

    The OP asked if I would claim the point, and I said no.

    The OP asked if you would claim the point and you said yes.

    J
     
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  13. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Jolly, I understand your point of view. Personally, I would take the point if the person simply didn't make enough of an effort to get out of the way. That is the rule. If the person was simply stopping a ball so it didn't fly onto the neighboring court or something, I would let it go.

    There are *A LOT* of people who do not know that if the ball hits you in the air, you lose the point even if you are standing out of bounds.

    I can recall claiming points twice in matches, once in a league match, once in a social match.

    In the team practice match, the returner's partner made no effort to get out of the way of my second serve and it struck her on the thigh. I explained the rule. And I took the point. Why? Not because I cared about winning the match. It was because my three teammates were completely unaware of the rule, and as captain I wanted it seared into everyone's brain that this is the rule.

    In the USTA match, my partner's first serve bounced off the shoe of the returner, who was positioned near the T. Again, I was dealing with an opponent who didn't know the rule. I took the point. If you are going to crowd the T, you'd better read the rules first.
     
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  14. gogeta087

    gogeta087 Rookie

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    I've had it happen multiple times to me in school play, and I just let it go. I really don't care, it's obviously going out. I've never been hit with a serve (I've pulled off some weird acrobatics to get away from the completely mistruck balls, though) and I don't want to imagine what it would be like to lose a point because of my reaction time or reflexes.
     
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  15. Blask

    Blask Semi-Pro

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    I was on the next court so I did not see it as it happened. I did get multiple first hand accounts of the situation and was told that the returner blatantly stuck his racquet out to move the ball. It was not accidental. All I know is that it caused a pretty big stir in the match and there was some bad blood apparently leading up to it (bad line calls, teams taking shots at eachother, etc). I don't know if I have made up my mind on what is the right thing to do. On one hand the serve was out and therefore I would have a tough time with any reward. On the other hand, a rule is a rule and it was a USTA match.
     
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  16. 10sfreak

    10sfreak Semi-Pro

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    If it was obvious to me that the serve was going to be way out, and also obvious that the returner knew it, and was just trying to keep the ball from flying all over the place, I would not take the point.
     
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  17. sphinx780

    sphinx780 Professional

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    I wouldn't take the point although it is in the rules that I could choose to. If I missed my shot that badly, I don't see how it would help my game improve by taking that point.

    If I was the returner, and my opponent took the point, fine, it is in the rule book but I would argue that it goes against the intent of the rule. IMHO, I believe that rule is to keep returners from taking a net position and volley the serve, not to award the server for missing a shot so wildly that the returner needs to get out of the way at the baseline. Intent of a rule vs. the written rule is always debatable, so I understand if someone chooses to take the point.

    Personally, I just ask myself...would I rather earn the point by playing a second serve or take the point because the rule allows it? For me, I feel that mentality helps my game develop and improve. Everyone will have different opinions and reasoning as we have seen, this is just how I choose to look at it.
     
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  18. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Ah, well, if there was bad blood already, then I would claim the point. My primary motivation for *not* claiming the point under ordinary conditions would be to avoid drama, keep things cordial, and focus on playing tennis. But if the cat's already out of the bag and tempers are flaring, then I would be extra careful to play exactly by the rules for the rest of the match.
     
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  19. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

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    Ya, I dig it.

    Also, on my end, if the reciever's partner was standing right on the T just to mess with me, I wouldn't have a problem drilling him on the fly and taking the point.

    J
     
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  20. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    its the rule. why wouldnt you enforce it. especially it was a league match so winning mattered. i dont get jo11y not taking the point. they knowingly violated the rule.
     
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  21. nhat8121

    nhat8121 Semi-Pro

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    no i would not take the point

    unless im at wimbledon and the ump says that's your point...then I have no choice but to take it :)
     
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  22. slick

    slick Rookie

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    No frickin way would I take the point. Have some pride people. I only want to win if I earn it, not on same lame ass technicality.
     
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  23. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    You said you were a "better person" for saying no. That's what's debatable.

    You are not any better or worse either way....

    If you wish to not take the point then that's your choice and if it makes you feel better great, it doesnt make you any better then anyone else though....

    You're playing a tennis match, you're not running a business, running for political office or handing out food for the homeless. You can play the rules or not, or do whatever floats your boat, "being a better person" doesnt enter into it.

    "WHO!!! WHO DOESNT WANT TO WEAR THE RIBBON!!!!????"
     
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  24. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Well, I think Jolly is a better person! :)
     
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  25. maverick66

    maverick66 Hall of Fame

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    But its the rule. It was put there for a reason. I do not understand not using the rules.
     
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  26. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    :shrug:

    I just think Jolly is pretty cool, that's all.

    Seriously. There are always going to be people who think this or that is Bush League. They are entitled to think that and do as they please. If it costs them points they could otherwise win, that is their choice, and I respect their choice.
     
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  27. nhat8121

    nhat8121 Semi-Pro

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    for me, it comes down to that word slick said above ^^

    pride. I would feel so embarrassed to claim such a point.

    Though, not everyone feels the same, so you're can do what you like, it's within the rules.
     
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  28. slick

    slick Rookie

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    Somebody pulled that crap on me once in a social mixed dubs match of all things. I caught a ball that was going to be way out as I was standing BEHIND the baseline so I didn't have to run after it. They claimed the point. I thought they were joking. They were not and even got a little testy.

    I never played with them again.
     
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  29. charliefedererer

    charliefedererer Legend

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    Good for you for not playing with them again.
    But a bigger reason for catching a ball like that in a social match is so the errant ball doesn't interupt play on the next court. Otherwise, let it fly.
     
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  30. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

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    This is last year's thread all over again. That time the discussion was what happens if you catch the ball that is very obviously going long to save some time.

    For the record, in the OP's case, I will not claim the point and politely ask the opponent not to do that in future as it is controversial. (Some thing that I love to tell people who signal out before the ball bounces, then it lands near the line, they take their hand down a bit and then lift it up again in a "I was right" body language)

    If my serve hits the net person's shoes like Cindy said, I will claim the point.

    The difference in two is opponent's control. If the opponent is not in control then I can safely say GOTCHA!
     
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  31. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Well look at it from their point of view.

    YOU were the one who decided to catch the ball. THEY would not normally catch the ball, so from their point of view you can not fault them for taking the point when it was YOU that decided to catch it and cause that whole mess in the first place.

    It all depends on who you are used to playing probably. Some circles might do that all the time and they dont care, other people might think it's strange because they are used to just playing by the whole rules and they dont have a problem with them. (it is just a game after all.....)

    I dont think a small issue like that is any reason to play with anyone.

    Id hate to sound like some other person on here, but when I see the occasional person who catches the ball, it makes them stick out like a sore thumb, so I wonder if they know what they are doing. But that's because it's not very common, maybe if I saw people doing it all the time I wouldnt think much of it. (although in this case their happens to be a rule that you dont do it, not just a case of social stigma, vanity, etc.....)
     
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  32. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Sometimes they catch it and they were not under control though. It's like a habit that a few people seem to not be able to shake. If you are playing with people who respect the rules, you get out of the way. Sometimes people dont, and sometimes they even catch it because they cant help themselves.

    That's why I dont think it's really fair to feel you are getting a free point for something you didnt accompish.

    Your opponent can give you free points all the time for things that you didnt really do. (like you hit an easy sitter and they hit it out, or you hit a ball that was clearly going out but they hit it in midair and mishit it)

    That's just tennis, you lose points either because your opponent did something good, or because you screwed up. If you touched the ball and you were able to avoid it, then you screwed up.
     
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  33. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    Javier, I don't understand why you bother to keep going on this. The people that arguing against you are only still trying to imply that they are better than you because you would claim a point that is rightfully yours. You have been correct the entire time. I don't buy Jo11y's whole "I would never call it" thing, and like you, I don't appreciate his "I'm a better person for it" comment or however it went. I think it's hopeless trying to reason with certain individuals.
     
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  34. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    You're right, we will never change their minds. They will definitely never change my mind.

    But there are new people logging into TW everyday. Maybe they will read this post and if they see something intelligent being said it may sway their opinion (on something that they either didnt care much about or didnt think much about).

    And that's less people going out there operating by some made up principle based on what they perceive is acceptable by everyone.
     
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  35. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

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    Nobody is saying that we are right and you are wrong. It is just what some people would do (as per the question). What Jolly said was for Jolly. Jolly never said that if anyone else did not do that he will think they are a bad human being. It just meant that Jolly would feel nice to do that.

    secondly, from the tone of your post, if I do that against you, I will not even expect you to understand and concede the point. No, that does not make you a bad person, but there are very different personalities on tennis courts and after some tennis you can predict their responses to such points.
     
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  36. slick

    slick Rookie

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    Yes it is. I would only catch a ball that was WAY out and only if I'm already standing outside the court behind the baseline, which, by the laws of physics make it impossible for the ball to land in. If someone tries to get a point that way and then gets snippy about it when you think that they can't be serious is plenty of reason not to play them again.

    Besides any chance I get to play less mixed doubles is an added bonus.
     
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  37. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    If someone throws in the phrase:

    "I would like to think Im a better person than that....."

    That generally means they think they are a better person because they are not doing something.

    (it's a somewhat meaningless comment designed to just pat themselves on the back)

    That's what makes it different from just saying "I wouldnt call it....".

    And to be perfectly honest I dont always call it either. Sometimes I dont because if I know the person is going to create a huge fuss and cry about it I will let it go because the drama is not good for the game. It's only one point.

    But that's another good reason not to catch the ball in the first place as well. When in Rome.....
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2009
    #37
  38. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    They are not "trying" to win the point, they did win the point.

    You dont always win point by doing something, that's just tennis, sometimes your opponents bail you out.....

    And it was going to land out, but it didnt. (you kept it from going out) What luck!!!

    That's just a different view point. People who play by the rules avoid touching the ball because they know they lose the point if it touches them. There isnt any reason to catch it. (unless maybe it's extra ordinary circumstances where the ball was obviously going to get lost or would of ended up under the fence or somewhere far away, but not to just save a few seconds of walking to go get it)

    Again YOU ARE the one who touched it. You cant totally blame the other team for that since you do have control over yourself.

    Sounds like you have some other reasons as well for not playing mixed so that makes more sense. :) (not that there is anything wrong with mixed, but whether someone called you out on catching a ball seemed like a weak excuse. :) )
     
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  39. randomname

    randomname Professional

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    its funny that you say that, because most everyone I know HATE playing with sticklers for the rules. Intent matters to most people, if they're obviously only trying to help and you know that you didnt earn the point, it DOES make you a worse person for taking it from them. Thats not any different from reporting someone else for jaywalking to the police, sure its the law, but it doesnt meant your not a doucebag for doing it.
     
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  40. Winners or Errors

    Winners or Errors Hall of Fame

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    Had it happen to me in a high school doubles match long ago. Lost the point because the jerks on the other side of the net took it, but my partner and I got riled up and crushed them the rest of the match. It had been tight until that point. Bad idea for them to take that point.

    There's the letter of the rules and the spirit of the rules. I'm always in favor of the latter ruling over the former.
     
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  41. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    Ok. So, you wouldn't call it. No way does that give you the right to call someone a jerk because they called you on violating a rule.
     
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  42. Winners or Errors

    Winners or Errors Hall of Fame

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    There's a vast difference between not being able to get out of the way and casually hitting a ball aside that everyone on the court knows to be out. Often in doubles, I hit the ball very hard at the net man, because even if my ball's headed for the back fence, there's a 75% chance he will react and try to hit it. I'm sure others do this, as it's a very useful tactic. The same cannot be said of, for example, hitting the non-returning partner with your serve.
     
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  43. Winners or Errors

    Winners or Errors Hall of Fame

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    Guy was a jerk. Spirit v. letter. I happen to think that people who emphasize the letter over the spirit of the law are jerks. It's not a question of whether I have the "right" to do so, which I do as it's my own darned opinion, and if you think I shouldn't that's certainly your prerogative.
     
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  44. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

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    Hypothetical questions for everyone. In a tournament
    would you take the point in any of the following situations?

    1) You hit a ground stroke that is obviously going out.
    your opponent is standing BEHIND the baseline and is unable to get out of the way and the ball grazes their clothing.

    2) same situation as #1 but this time your opponent is standing just inside the baseline.

    3) same as #1 except your opponent is now further inside the baseline near the service line.

    4) same as #1 except your opponent is at the net.

    5) you hit an overhead going way out. Your opponent is standing way outside the doubles sideline and gets tagged.
     
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  45. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

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    Another case: You are in a tournament and are getting blown away. Opponent is serving 6-0 5-0 40-0, and twists his ankle. Needs medical attention. Allowed timeout is 8 min, takes 8 min 10 seconds to come back. Tournament rules say if you exceed medical timout you concede the match.

    Do you take the win?
     
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  46. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    So if you were playing in a match with an umpire, and the umpire called "touch," would you concede the point?
     
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  47. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    Most importantly, where are you playing where those are the rules?
     
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  48. raiden031

    raiden031 Legend

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    I don't see how you can be a stickler for the rules and be a good sportsman at the same time. I liken it to strictly following the law, yet completely doing away with common courtesy. You can be walking into a building and let the door close on an 80 year old woman behind you and then claim you are not a jerk because what you did is not illegal.

    In tennis, when someone is stopping a ball that is clearly without a shadow of a doubt going to sail long, then you are knowingly enforcing this rule, knowing that it will bother your opponent. Purposely using the rules in your favor to intentionally annoy your opponent and cause tension for your own advantage is not my idea of good sportsmanship. Why would you want a point that you should've lost anyways? A good rule of thumb should be that if enforcing a rule is going to **** off 90% of opponents, then maybe there's a reason nobody enforces the rule. Its one of those un-written rules. Now with that being said, I would NEVER touch a ball that is sailing long because I don't want to put myself in this situation and give someone the pleasure of enforcing the rule on me.

    I think its also more sportsman-like not to accept every generous offer of your opponents when they miss something and give you the benefit of the doubt. For example, there have been times where we would play out a point and then I hit a shot that is clearly sailing long, and then a rogue ball rolls on the court before mine lands. I know the point is over so I don't call a let, but my opponent is a little less aware and asks if I wanted a let for that. I would say NO because I know I was losing the point no matter what.
     
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  49. spiderman123

    spiderman123 Professional

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    Those are the rules and you are playing a tournament where players abused medical timeout for six years or whatever.

    Will you take the win?
     
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  50. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    Those are not the rules, plus add in that if it were an ankle problem, the player's shoe would be off. Putting your shoes back on is not considered part of the medical time out, and would take more than 10 seconds, therefore, the player would not be over the time.
     
    #50

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