wrist snap continued

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by TheLambsheadrep, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    New video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ4PsNCTKnA&feature=youtu.be

    My first 3 of my shots I see that the racquet face is perpendicular to the court at the end of the take back all the way through contact, which resulted in a double bend hit (like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnnKt_SeJ6s or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ, minus the fact that his racquet starts the upward part of the take back closed). From other videos of me goofing with friends, the double bend seems to be how I normally hit. And when not trying to force “pet the dog” (like the first video), I guess I didn’t really do it at all. That’s probably why sometimes I would wind up for a kill shot and send it flying long, since the racquet face was never closed in the first place and any supination on top of that perpendicular racquet face position would open up the racquet face. The last 3 I had the racquet more parallel to the court during the same time frame described above, which resulted in a straight arm hit. I can see that the first 2 straight arm shots are reminiscent of my first video – my arm was moving at the same speed as my body, not being pulled by it. I believe this is because both incoming balls were around knee level, just like a lot were from the first video. The last one was different though, and I gave a signal to the camera to watch this shot specifically. As I was going through the different suggestions I’ve been given throughout that night, this was around the point I started to focus on swinging with the butt cap first to the ball. This shot felt different than all the others, and I remember how loose my arm felt right before contact (when I led with the butt cap) through contact.

    For that last shot, I’d like to point out a few things I think I did to improve from the first video an what I still could improve on -
    Improved: slightly more open stance (though not as good as other shots in the video), not forcing the racquet face to point behind me (kept at about 45 degrees), swinging at the ball with the butt cap, contact is made about as far out as possible
    Can still improve: loading on outside leg (again, not as good as other shots in the video), starting the swing from the body (will give more ssc), maybe a more federer/nadal-esc shortened back swing (more of a 45 degree straight down drop instead of a circular motion)

    Also, stroke 2 and 3 seem to me to be pretty similar, but the second shot would have sailed long. Can you tell me what you think the differences are that would have contributed to this are? I can see these:
    -elbow is slightly more bent during the follow through on the 3rd stroke
    -ball is lower at contact on the 3rd
    -swing path is more linear on the 3rd

    On a lot of pro’s bent arm swings I’m seeing that their elbows are still kept bent still after contact so their arms wrap around their body/neck really fast, where my elbow is extended as far from my chest as possible since my arm is almost straight out and pointing at the hitting wall. But then here’s Roddick www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-D32RwsD_w and it looks like he’s killing the ball, and his elbow and arm are more straight out like mine. Is this a swinging through vs. swinging up difference?

    And what is Murray doing to get his arm to go from straight to bent right before contact, is he swinging literally straight up and over on the ball? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-7ZZXUBrl8


    BTW, in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R3PJaev3AA , do you think he’d hit with a straight arm if he didn’t supinate right after petting the dog and kept the racquet face parallel to the court through most of the stroke?
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2013
    #51
  2. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Cheetah, I see you're on now haha
     
    #52
  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    Looks better. good job. weight transfer is better. contact point looks good now. I'd still move that grip down a touch but that's a big change so I don't expect you to change that anytime soon. follow through looks perfect. stance could be a touch more open on some shots but still looks better. good swing. Does the spin characteristics of the shots look any different than before? I'm guessing it probably does.

    I think you have to work more on the takeback still. maybe a little more compact and get more ptd doing. that will make the shot better guaranteed. You have some lag now i can see. That's good. could be a touch more though.

    it looks like second stroke had a slightly better contact point. you were meeting it with some across action which gives more spin and margin. 3rd looked more linear and contact point was closer so it had more straight through on it towards the target so not enough room to get some natural spin on it like on the 2nd. also for the 2nd you were hitting while your body was rising from the push off which was good. the 3rd there wasn't much push so torso was going straight thru therefore less top.

    I think this is because you don't have any PTD so your arm is going to move differently than those guys after the hit. look how roddick's racquet face is pointing to the ground.

    murray leads the swing w/ there elbow. the elbow stays with the torso rotation while the racquet lags behind creating the bend. this is how it should be done.
     
    #53
  4. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Thanks! I do think the grip creeps back up sometimes since that's how it's been for 10ish years, but I am trying to have my pinky placement no more than an additional pinky width up from the bottom of the grip. The spin looks different on my better shots, but there's not enough of them to see it like night and day.

    I'm def going to make mental notes to get more ptd going, I never knew I held the racquet so open at the bottom of my take back (like from the tsonga vid I posted before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CrWFui1jW4)

    And even though Roddick had full ptd in that video, I still think his follow through looked a lot like mine. Maybe his is a hitting through motion but then his western grip gives him more spin (and margin of error) compared to my SW
     
    #54
  5. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEU3NdXZhfM&feature=youtu.be
    So here is myself and a friend hitting around for a bit. I realize from the video that I am good at making one correctional tip from people on this forum at a time, and then switching to another and totally forgetting to continue doing the last one haha. On one shot I am gripping the racquet lower and with more of a closed fist, the next I am leading the forward swing with the butt cap but the hand is back up, etc. But overall I know the video is a learning tool, and next time I can go out and build on what I have now.

    So a few things I think I'm doing better:
    -more swings leading with the butt cap. This seems to be the best piece of advice for me so far. I have captured a few shots in slow mo again where I think I see the most SSC, and I believe that it's because I'm leading with the butt cap really well (if there are shots I didn't slow mo that you think have better SCC, please let me know which ones they are)
    -standing more open. I told you guys that's how I normally hit :p
    -keeping the back swing shorter. I know it's not as short as some would like to see, but it's obviously better than the first video (again, it was that long because I was trying the whole "turn the racquet face far back" thing)

    things to work on:
    -keeping my hand lower on the grip. I think I was a little lax in this video compared to my second, and even though it didn't seem to negatively impact my shots, I know holding it lower will provide room for improvement. I think I need to get in the habit of adjusting the grip after every shot. If I'm not mistaken, some pros spin their racquet in their hands after almost every shot, so I may try to implement that and feel for where my pinky is every time.
    -half to no PTD position, especially on higher balls. Fed and Nadal get their racquet almost parallel to the ground, and where that's not mandatory, it's a good visualization to get great PTD. I also think the flatter the racquet gets to the ground, the more the wrist is allowed to deviate first and then extend, which seems to be how Fed hits. Again, even though it didn't seem to hinder most of my shots, I know it will lead to improvement. It will also make the next note more evident.
    -Not as much visible whip with SSC as possible. I think this ties in with the PTD note. I've been thinking that if I don't bring the racquet most of the way behind me (around 90 degrees from the side fence) and have it more like 60-70 degrees back, there will be more whipping of the racquet head behind me (so now it's whipped to around 90 degrees, not just brought back to 90 degrees) on the forward swing and therefore more SSC. I think Fed does this more than Nadal, who seems to bring the racquet back more. In the same videos that I'm making Fed and Nadal's SSC observations in, I'm seeing that they don't always have a huge whip and sometimes it seems like the wrist is locked through the stroke, so I think it's safe to say that it's hard to get it perfectly all the time.

    A few other things:
    -I'm seeing some double bend shots again, and I think from this view it's obvious that a big determining factor is distance from the ball. There are def some biomechanical differences as well (pronation vs supination of the forearm during the forward swing), but they are not voluntary, and I'd go as far as to say distance is the biggest determining factor. I also think SSC is not as visually obvious (at full speed or slow mo) when hitting with a double bend. Shots at 0:13, 1:09, 1:12, 1:53, and 4:05 are more double bend than straight arm if not full on double bend. I've put together a clip of Nadal and Tipsarevic hitting split screen forehands so I could see the biomechanical difference(s), but it is hard to see anything major so I will prob upload that soon, too.
    -Cheetah, what did you think about what I was saying about the Wegner video from the other thread? Mainly about this - "I think using an open stance and pushing off your outside foot will create movement/momentum going to your left (for R handers) and will allow the racquet to use that movement/momentum to go across the body faster. There should still be enough forward movement/momentum to have your body going forward and into the court, though. Maybe the next time I'm hitting I will try a few shots where I'm consciously trying to push off at a 45 degree angle forward and to the left and see what happens. From there you can modify it - maybe push off at 60 degrees (going more laterally) and see if arm acceleration increases going across the body instead of out from the body and, consequently, if spin (maybe side spin) increases."
    -are my follow throughs looking a little too extended over my left shoulder?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2013
    #55
  6. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    well... it's a step in the right direction.
    just remember it's going to take time.

    there were some good shots in there and the ball has a lot of action. you're pretty good and you can see all the hours logged.

    1) you need to start getting your legs involved. Currently your using your arms too much. (like most ppl) Your leg work is too casual and I'd say not involved in the majority of the time and too much flat foot time. You have to literally change your mentality and start thinking of a stroke as hitting the ball with the body. You don't have to load and push off like a madman or nadal but the stroke has to start from the ground up. Load and push first even if it's a tiny amount. Even in the super casual practice strokes of Fed he is using his legs. It's subtle but they are involved. Once you get the legs involved correctly then many good things are going to happen in the overall stroke and not just power.

    2) I feel your hitting structure falls apart too soon. We've been through all that and it's not as easy to see in fed and nadal because they are the masters and have tons of ssc etc going on in around their hitting structure but if you look at 'lesser' players it's easier to see.

    Look at this frame from your vid. See your racquet position?
    [​IMG]

    That sucks. haha. :p. You don't really want to see that kind of thing. This means you are not using isr and/or some other flaws and your structure breaks down and you're not coming through the ball in the best way. Look at GregG's thread. He used to have that look too but he's fixed it.
    You want to be at this position:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    see the difference?

    Look at this guy. Not a pro but you can see him holding that structure through the hit. He's swinging with his body. When that happens you get a nice arc look to the swing path.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWuD9-Fcrxc&feature=endscreen&NR=1&t=14s

    You can see this nice 'arc' in all the pros. They set up that structure and then they 'throw' or 'rotate' that structure through the ball using their body.
    Once you get that idea baked in your muscle mem then naturally you will loosen it up and you'll get more ssc and all that. But still all that ssc and pronation and deviation and flair still happens in and around the hitting structure. and yes their are exceptions and circumstances etc etc.
    You might want to try to pull the butt cap past the ball before the hit. This give a lot of leverage.

    But other than that your swing looks a little better. good job.
     
    #56
  7. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    I see what you’re saying, but that’s not the follow through position for every shot so the thing for me to work on is consistency. Pausing at 1:20, 1:24 (not a great shot, but still the racquet position you were referring to), 1:34, and 1:41 shows a string of the follow throughs you refer to, and most of the slow mo’s have it, too. I would say the one you showed was kind of an outlier actually, but the point is that it’s there and shouldn’t be. I think, when it is there, is has to do with lack of PTD and that longer follow through I was doing.

    Like I noted before, I am a little surprised to see my follow through like that. The first two videos I posted had me catching the racquet over my shoulder for the most part, which kept it nice and compact. In this vid my arm is really far out there on some shots and I’m not doing a whole lot with my left arm to catch the racquet. For now, I will make a mental note and relate this to the increased effort compared to the first video. With that said, the fact that the footwork got better but the follow through got worse is a little disappointing…

    I do see that I need more body in the shot. There is def more use and rotation in this third video than the others, and even though this was casual hitting it wouldn’t be 100% true to say that it keeps getting better the more “real” I play. Increase of body in my shots is something I def need to further implement. In terms of legs though, I see some good outside loading, but it’s never fully utilized. I think only my last three shots have both feet in the air at the same time (we only played 1.5 real game before she got called to go) - I’m either rotating around my left leg and the right leg rises or I push off the right and the left rises to readjust. Would a good gauge for leg use be if both came off the ground? I’m not saying I need to jump a foot in the air, but would enough spring being used result in both feet in the air? I think that is what determines good/bad leg use for the serve, so it would make sense if it applied to at least the forehand. This concept is found in the rotation vid you posted
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
    #57
  8. Cheetah

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    Yes. I see. I wrote that as I was falling asleep so I missed those.

    Yup. No worries. I'm just trying to put it out there for you so that you're more aware of it.

    No. i don't think so. No need to come off the ground. You are loading some times but mostly what I'm referring to is your footwork between strokes, not in the stroke itself so much.
    Look at this sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEU3NdXZhfM&feature=youtu.be&t=2m36s

    You're just mosie-ing along, la de da, ho humming it, knees locked, flat footed, walking causualy over to the next stroke. haha. When you do that then when it comes time to execute the stroke it takes more energy to get going and load and go through proper motions because basically you've stopped. the body is in laze mode. You have to keep moving and be springy. The feet and body are part of the stroke. Basically you're just training your legs to be lazy. It can still be casual but..hmm.... lemme see if I can find an example.

    here's fed in casual mode. but look at his feet and also the guy he's hitting with. split steps, knees bent, moving http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg&t=1m43s

    novac http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WrTWNm-hN0
     
    #58
  9. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    I think part of the reason for some (in my opinion) ugly looking follow throughs was a lack of ISR. Would an example of good IRS coupled with good forearm pronation be at 1:12 (plus most of the ending slow mo shots from my first video and the last shot of my second posted video)?

    Btw, reading Greg G's forehand thread, a lot of similarities in our developments and critiques
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
    #59
  10. Cheetah

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    yea that shot at 1:12 looked good. had a nice pop on it too.
     
    #60
  11. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

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    Looking good Lambsheadrep! Work on keeping your balance, which is related to getting there early. It's my issue as well :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2013
    #61
  12. TheLambsheadrep

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    Thanks. I'm prob gonna record again this week, and the things I want to really focus on are holding the grip lower, more PTD (with that 60-70 degree back swing position), leading with the butt cap, and split stepping between shots (just for you Cheetah :p ).

    For lowering the grip, do you think what I said before - spinning the racquet (just one half turn) between shots - is a good option for recreating the feel every time?
     
    #62
  13. Cheetah

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    I'm not sure about that. I think that's personal preference. I spin between shots but i don't give it any thought. i just do it to keep the hands loose and to keep the tension out of my hands and arms. I also don't hold the racquet by the grip when i'm walking back to the service line or between points for the same reason (grabbing by the throat). i learned that trick from boris becker years back.

    I see a lot of ppl here talking about spinning the racquet but i ignore those convos so i don't know what they are saying regarding the spinning.

    I'm guessing the grip change will take about 3 weeks. If you stick w/ it for 3 weeks you won't go back to your previous grip.. you'll see.
     
    #63
  14. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Hey Cheetah, no recent vids but a question or two.

    I just posted a thread about the two most common ways to hold the racquet - "pistol" and "hammer" - and in it I say that I've been trying out the hammer a little bit recently and thought I felt my wrist being more loose. What do you think about this?

    Also, I've been trying to make the PTD position a habit and think I am making progress. After trying the hammer grip, I felt the racquet just DROP at the end of my back swing right before any forward swing. I mean, it was the equivalent of falling through a trap door, but for my wrist. I thought it was weird at first, and then realized it's probably what a completely loose wrist feels like. Without the support given by the extended index finger of the pistol grip, is the SSC more easily achieved?

    If I can prevent any arm/wrist interference from just letting the racquet drop down (like described above), the arm naturally supinates big time. This opens up the racquet when the PTD position should be happening such that the racquet face is no longer near parallel with the ground. Is that too much supination, should there still be some control over how the arm moves down so gravity doesn't take all the way over? Would a video help show what I mean?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2013
    #64
  15. Cheetah

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    Yes post a quick video if you could so I don't misinterpret. Or even a video of someone else doing something similar that you are referring to if possible.
     
    #65
  16. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Sorry it took so long, got of topic with the other thread. Here's a vid of me slowing the swing down to show the wrist drop. Since I was altering the swing speed, I wasn't 100% consistent, but the general idea is shown every time. The first one is the best i think, there was so much natural motion from the drop that i hit the back of my calf haha. With a full speed swing, the racquet head doesn't drop down as much, but still has the big supination. Btw, this was using Nadal/Novak's hammer grip.
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/38221599@N05/8604098815

    and this is the vid of nadal ive been watching lately, he gets the racquet so far behind his back it's silly.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ7fWm1gPtY
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2013
    #66
  17. Cheetah

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    Nope.
    one day you're going to look at that vid and say 'omg. wth was i thinking??'

    lol.. been there done that. but sorry. you're not getting it yet. i know exactly what you're going through.

    If I were you I would forget what you're doing right there and don't shadow that anymore. It's not correct so no need to reinforce it.

    and ... ok.. that grip.... u are definitely approaching hammer grip there. something's a little weird with it. not sure yet. I'd have to see a clear pic of it.

    I'll grab some screenshots and show you why what you are doing in that vid is wrong... 30 mins

    while i do that answer this...
    to do what you are trying to do (get ssc etc etc) is the same as if you were holding a piece of rope the length of a tennis racquet with a tennis ball connected at the end of the string. now lets say you are holding the rope and a tennis ball is heading towards you over the net and you have to hit the oncoming tennis ball with the ball that is connected to the 27inch rope you are holding. you have to whip the ball around on the rope and hit the oncoming ball. get it?

    if you were doing that do you think your swing and rope path would like the swing and racquet path in that vid you just posted?
     
    #67
  18. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Cheetah, I wasn't interested in the SSC with this. All I was thinking of was letting the wrist drop, it was just something I noticed without the support of the extended index finger. Don't worry about analyzing it too much, I just wanted to point out the difference I felt in a quick video
     
    #68
  19. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    It may be that I wasn't holding the grip as low as a could have/should have. Again, I was just trying to get a quick video example of the motion before my hitting session began today
     
    #69
  20. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    OK, simple enough. I will get a vid up soon of my most recent strokes to prove that what you're telling me is sinking in haha.

    About the Nadal video for a sec - between that video and most of Fed's videos, I'm seeing Nadal's racquet whip further behind his back at the beginning of his forward swing, I'd pretty much say much further. Would you say it's because Nadal's elbow also goes further behind his back then Fed's does? That's what I'm thinking...
     
    #70
  21. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    oh. ok
    ,......
     
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  22. Cheetah

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    I hope you're not swinging like u were in that last vid. that would be pretty messed up.

    Regarding Nadal, Yea i guess. He has a more violent motion.
     
    #72
  23. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    There prob is some wrist drop (a result of a loose wrist), but not to the level that was in the video. For the video, to make sure there was enough time to see what I was talking about, I delayed the forward swing. That may have been what I was doing all along and made me think there was a big supination. Well, ya there'd be, if you don't swing forward to get to the natural pronation, there's nothing to balance out the supination haha. Idk, I thought I had picked up on something, but it doesn't occur in a real play setting.

    I will get video of my regular fh pistol grip strokes, me trying some fh hammer grip strokes, and the western forehand I can hit with a "standard" hammer grip (knuckles all on one bevel) strokes up soon.
     
    #73
  24. Cheetah

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    correct.
    .....
     
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  25. TomT

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    I was casually perusing the threads here and happened on this. I think it just might help me to improve my forehand. After shadow swinging using this visualization, I'm encouraged enough to spend some time tomorrow experimenting with it on court (or at least at the wall if I can't get a hitting partner). One of my problems, at least I think it's a problem, has been in optimizing my arm extension regarding normal forehand groundstroke hitting. I'll let you know if your suggestion/visualization helps facilitate that.

    @TheLambsheadrep,
    Nice thread. Enjoying your vids, and comments from you, Cheetah, et al. You are talented. Best of luck with your continued improvement.
     
    #75

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