WTF Winner Will Be Player Of The Year???

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by stringertom, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Legend

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    If the general cosistency is the measuring stick, then Djokovic wins.

    If the number of big titles is deciding, then, whoever of the two wins the WTF final wins.
     
  2. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    Yes very close, but considering they both have 1 majors, 3 masters, and whoever wins tomorrow gets a WTF title, I figure it's a good way of saying who did better. Granted Djokovic did get to more slam finals, but just Fed getting on that path to reclaiming number 1 (considering how awesome Djoko was last year) is impressive. Very close though. If Fed wins tomorrow, even with Djoko as number 1, I'd say Fed's year was more impressive (especially considering his age and circumstances)
     
  3. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Depends on whether winning big titles matters or going deep in slams/masters do. I think it's a mix of both. If Federer wins tomorrow he'll lead Djokovic in titles and in the h2h this year. Important stats. But personally this year I feel Djokovic has been the one to beat, he's gone deeper and been more consistant in the tournaments. I think the number 1 ranking is a good indicator of the best player of the year. It'll be close though.

    Murray is officially out of contention though...
     
  4. timnz

    timnz Legend

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  5. stringertom

    stringertom Talk Tennis Guru

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    Tomorrow is my tiebreaker. Today eliminated Murray from this talk. So it's down to Fed or Djok. If Rogi wins, he will have beaten Djok at a major, a MS1000 and the WTF...a nice triumvirate of venues. To have reclaimed #1 from being so far behind is also ammo for my vote. If Djok wins, he's the obvious choice for all the reasons everyone has already listed.

    Good luck to both of them! This is the way it should be decided...#1 vs #2! it took two great comebacks today to achieve the matchup we deserve.
     
  6. sonicare

    sonicare Hall of Fame

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    Let me ask you guys a question

    Would you rather win WTF or get to a slam final?

    What about a masters 1000 win vs a slam final?

    What about win a 500 tournament vs slam final?

    win a 250 vs a slam final?
     
  7. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Slam-final for all, but the WTF is tempting.
     
  8. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Stupid question, slam final.
     
  9. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    Novak clearly deserves #1...and his consistency in big tournaments shows this through all the points he has earned.

    BUt...

    If federer wins tomorrow - he POTY. 31yrs, wins wimbledon, back to #1 and then owns major rivals at WTF once again.

    No need to give two awards for the same thing

    POTY doesnt have to be #1 in the world. #1 = objective pt system which rewards consistency.

    POTY - Impressive, outstanding player of the year..could be someone overcoming the odds or having a breakthrough run.
     
  10. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    That's an interesting and agreeable way of looking at it.
     
  11. RF20Lennon

    RF20Lennon Legend

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    Slam final but the WTF is HIGHLY tempting
     
  12. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    But consistency means rewards. I.E; POTY.
     
  13. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    In short I agree with World Beater. To me the winner tomorrow is the POTY. And to answer sonicare's question, I'd take a slam final over all BUT winning the WTF.
     
  14. mattennis

    mattennis Hall of Fame

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    It doesn't matter.

    To win the WTF tomorrow is as great an achievement that anything else is irrelevant right now.

    Both players want it badly, and it is not for any POTY award.

    The WTF is the fifth most important title of the year and has an enormous prestige.

    The NÂș1 player of the year is Djokovic no matter what, but that is irrelevant right now. Tomorrow will be a great battle.
     
  15. RF-17-GOAT

    RF-17-GOAT Semi-Pro

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    Whoever wins tomorrow imho.
     
  16. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

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    This is so awesome......we will know tommorow!
     
  17. timnz

    timnz Legend

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    Official ATP Answer to your question

    The official ATP answer to your question is that the WTF is bigger.

    WTF winner wins 1500 points or 1300 points (depending if they were unbeaten or lost 1 match in the Round Robin phase - remember no one in 43 years of the WTF has lost more than one match and won the tournament) - whereas a Slam Finalist wins 1200 points.

    Hence 1500 or 1300 > 1200 - therefore WTF wins over Slam final.

    (Having said that making Slam finals is very impressive - and a great achievement in itself).
     
  18. World Beater

    World Beater Hall of Fame

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    Not necessarily.

    The ATP already gives an award for the best player of the year.

    It is called ATP YEAR END #1.

    This award has already been won by djokovic.

    POTY could be the same player or may be someone else.

    But it rewards something more subjective than ATP YE #1. For many people what federer has done at 31 is more impressive than what djokovic has done at 24.

    That could be one reason why POTY could be federer. But for me he only wins this if he wins tomorrow.

    Otherwise djokovic is POTY for me.

    The bottom line is there is no clear cut criteria for POTY but for ATP YE #1, there obviously is one...
     
  19. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    No way Djokovic wont sweep the Player of Year awards even if Federer wins IMO. They only override official rankings if there is a major difference in the prestige or some value of the success, which is not the case here, especialy not in Federer's favor. An example of this is Serena in the WTA this year who will likely sweep the Player of the Year awards despite her year end #3, and Kvitova over Wozniacki last year since Kvitova had a WAY better year despite Wozniacki's bizarre computer #1 rank. If Federer wins the WTF he will have the same # of Masters as Djokovic, weaker slam performances, 2 less slam finals, and the WTF title. At best a roughly equal (probably still inferior) performance. Absolutely nothing that would be close to overruling the computer rankings for Player of the Year. Meanwhile if Djokovic wins he would be way ahead of Federer on the year.
     
  20. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    Winning majors means everything here - so they're all on an even keel in that respect.

    Being runner or up a semi-finalists in a major means nothing compared to winning an Olympic gold medal. At this stage the Olympic gold is worth as much as another major imo - at least in kudos when considering the player of the year award. Murray has two ticks this year in that respect (Olympic Gold, USO) - Djokovic, Federer and Nadal only one each.

    Imo, if Federer wins the WTF then Murray should be player of the year... Even though the WTF is worth more in points the Olympics is a grander achievement this year - because it was Murray who won it. It's been his breakthrough year and the peak of his career. The same can't be said for Djokovic or Federer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  21. kaku

    kaku Professional

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    It all depends on what the ATP thinks is second most valuable to the majors
     
  22. timnz

    timnz Legend

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    Already have the answer

    Well we already have the answer to that. The ATP themselves have already outlined what they see is second most valuable to the majors.

    WTF - 1500 or 1300 points (depending on whether the winner lost 0 or 1 round robin match)

    Grand Slam runner up - 1200 points

    Olympics Win - 750 points

    It is the ATP's own ranking system.
     
  23. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

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    In points maybe, but not in kudos...

    No-one goes down in history for being a runner up at a major compared to winning an Olympic gold medal.
     
  24. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Of course if Djoko wins WTF, then there's not even a possible discussion about Djoko being POTY since he already did better than Fed in masters and in slams. It would be his 6th title of the year too.
     
  25. timnz

    timnz Legend

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    But

    But isn't what people are debating - what if Federer wins the WTF? Federer will then have 2 of the top 5 titles, whereas nadal, djokovic and murray will only have 1 each of the top 5 titles.
     
  26. timnz

    timnz Legend

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    Yes Olympics has kudos, but we can't take it too far. After all, it is only the number 15 event of the year in terms of points won.
     
  27. Tennis_Hands

    Tennis_Hands Legend

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    It all depends on what you use as a measuring tool.

    If it is a general consistency (weeks at #1, overall performance) Djokovic is #1 hands down.

    If the number of titles/big titles is a measuring tool, then, I cannot see how Djokovic is #1, in case that Federer wins the WTF.

    However, I cannot but laugh at your unconscious drive to bring Federer down, seen by the bolded part of your post. Factoring in the same thing twice, are we?
     
  28. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    That's the NA we know and love to hate. And did I mention his fail-predictions? :)
     
  29. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Let's play your game, here--is that a fact or an opinion?
     
  30. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Not that stupid. I would clearly take a Masters (ie WTF) win over a slam final. Not an M1000's final, though.
     
  31. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    So Azarenka is your WTA player of the year, right?
     
  32. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with you that in terms of kudos Andy Murray could have been considered player of the year if he had won the WTF but now that he can't win the WTF, he can't be player of the year even though he won a major and the OG. If Federer wins the WTF today, you have to give POTY to him. That would give Federer 7 ATP titles including a slam and 3 Masters 1000 titles. In addition you have to look at the circumstances. Federer is 31 years old and long past his prime yet he was beating guys 24/25 and in their absolute primes including Nadal, Murray and Djokovic to win most of these titles? Not to mention the fact that Federer reclaimed the number one spot from Djokovic in a year that is supposed to be one of Djokovic's best years of his career? In addition, Federer won the silver medal in the Olympics.

    I also agree with you about the slam final issue. No doubt Novak has been the most consistent player of the year by making it further in the slams but really so what? Who really cares about being a slam finalist? If you don't win the slam does anybody really remember?

    Again for consistency Novak is the man but in terms of more impressive achievements, you would have to give that to the old man Federer if he were to win the WTF today.
     
  33. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is not a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.
     
  34. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yeah it is...the WTF especially is seen as a big tournament. It's not a slam but it's still the 5th biggest event of the year. It has a lot of history.
     
  35. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes they are big tournaments. The WTF is next to slams in terms of ranking points and the Olympics, while lower than a Masters 1000 in terms of ranking points, is higher in prestige to all of the top players than a Masters 1000 is.
     
  36. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    In your opinion they are big tournaments. It is not a fact that they are big tournaments.
     
  37. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Prove they're not big tournaments. Specifically prove the WTF with it's 1500 points reward for an undefeated winner is not big.
     
  38. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Actually, no. All is a matter of opinion.

    Slams are big tournaments, but so are the Masters and Olympics.

    So are the M1000's, too, for that matter. Slams just happen to be bigger. And that was no necessarily always the case (see the AO in the 70's and most of the 80's, it was then less important than the Masters and Dallas WTC finals).

    So, everything is a matter of opinion.

    Of course, you might also decide that only the bigger stages count. But in this case, what you wrote shows you're biased. If you only aim for the very top of the line in tennis, then there is only one single tournament, not four. And that is Wimbledon. All the others are smaller, and I mean all of them. Does that mean they're not big, as you say?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  39. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Is it a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments? Yes or no?

    It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. It is questionable weather Olympics and WTF are big tournaments.

    Wimbledon, AO, US Open and FO are all in the same category: slams. Therefore, your arguments fails.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  40. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    No, it is a fact that Slams are the biggest tournaments followed by YEC, Masters 1000 and the Olympics in terms of ranking points. In terms of prestige the Olympics is a big deal for the biggest players. This is not something we can really dispute.
    Is something wrong with you?
     
  41. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    This guy is a tool. What kind of evidence is he asking us to put forward? Clearly the sentiments of the players and the ATP's own ranking points aren't enough for him.
     
  42. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Yes, no question about that. The Masters is the 5th bigger event of the year (was 4th for a great many years, too). The Olympics weren't a big tournament a few years ago, but they're getting there. This year at Wimbledon surely helped, too.

    No. The Masters has been a big tournament for about 40 years, while the AO has been for about 25 years only. Does that mean that the Masters is bigger than the AO?

    That's the difference betwen you and everybody else here. We *do* have an argument, you do not. You're setting arbitrary limits just because it suits your boy. As I said before, if you only recognize the very very best, then you stop at Wimbledon. If you don't, you have to recognize that there are many more big tournaments during a tennis year. Some are just bigger than others and, as said before, none of them are bigger than The Championships.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  43. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    It is a fact that slams are big tournaments. This is not something we can really dispute. If biggest players think Olympics are a big deal, it does not mean it's a fact that Olympics is a big tournament.

    Do you have common sense? It seems not.
     
  44. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    I am not disputing that slams are the biggest tournaments but the YEC follows slams according to ATP ranking points, do you not get this fact?
     
  45. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Can you explain how ATP rankings prove that it's a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments?

    No, it's your opinion. It's not a fact.

    If the Masters is the 5th biggest event of the year it does not mean it's a fact that it's a big tournament.

    Maybe in future Olympics is going to be a big tournament, but as of now it's not a fact that Olympics is a big tournament.

    Yes.

    No.

    We all have argument. The difference is that I have strong argument and you have weak argument.

    Wimbledon, AO, US Open and FO are all in the same category: slams. Therefore, your argument fails.
     
  46. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Can you explain how ATP ranking points prove it's a fact that WTF is a big tournament?
     
  47. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Can you suggest a better metric other than the ATP ranking points?
     
  48. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    You did not answer my question.
     
  49. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

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    Do you even hear what you are saying? If you are trying to say the YEC with 1500 points is not a big tournament than how can you claim a slam with 2000 is a big tournament? You can't say on the one hand a slam with 2000 points is the biggest tournament but the YEC with 1500 points is not the next biggest tournament. Do you fail to see that logic?
     
  50. NatF

    NatF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Don't see why I should. You offer no basis for why you reject the sentiments of the players or the ATP. You simply say it's not factual. If anyone is simply giving an opinion here it's you.

    Offer something constructive like what you think makes a tournament big. Otherwise we're going in circles...
     

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