WTF Winner Will Be Player Of The Year???

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by stringertom, Oct 20, 2012.

  1. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    LOL. This is so full of nothingness. Fact, opinion, whatever. Nobody in their right mind considers something like a MS1000, Slam, Olympics or WTF NOT a big tournament.
     
  2. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Okay, so only the biggest counts. Got it.

    Therefore, the only big tournament is Wimbledon.

    Therefore, Federer should be PotY by a landslide, with Murray at 2nd best PotY should such a position exist. Because, let's face it, Murray was a finalist at the biggest tournament of the year and won the second biggest, while Djokovic only won the fourth biggest.

    Happy, now?
     
  3. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    1. There are no tournaments that get more than 2000 points so logically it means that slams are big tournaments according to the ATP.

    2. I did not say that WTF is not the next most important tournament after slams, but I do not see how it proves it's a fact that WTF is a big tournament.
     
  4. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    The one going in circles his him. He likes to throw a lot of logical fallacies at you that he half-learned in secondary school despite his argument boiling down to "big tournaments are slams, therefore slams are big tournaments," - a classic example of circular reasoning.

    And yes, this is an ad hominem.
     
  5. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    No. Who said there *had* to be big tournaments? Maybe they're all small according to the ATP, but those which get 1,000 points are even smaller than the ones which get 2,000.

    See above. It's smaller than the slams, which are pretty small, too (cause, let's face it, 2,000 points is not that big when you compare this with the best players' totals).

    Djokovic's win at the 4th tournament of the year, the Australian Open, awarded him 2,000 points, ie, less than one-sixth of his current total. So how big is that? Pretty small, if you ask me. Verging on the insignificant.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  6. Steve0904

    Steve0904 G.O.A.T.

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    Murray is not even close to being the POTY if Federer wins IMO. He was eliminated from this discussion when he lost yesterday, again IMO. If Federer wins he will have 2 of the 6 big tournaments, as will Murray. I'm counting the WTF here. You would have to wouldn't you? I'll never put the Olympics on level with the slams despite what the players try to tell me because I think its major (no pun intended) appeal is that the players get to play for their country, but it is a great acheivement, and it is a big tournament, if only this year, but it's not a big tournament just because Murray won it. You're starting to sound like NSK here. Djokovic and Federer also have 3 M1000 each while Murray has zero, and I don't see why having a breakthrough year should come into play when talking about the POTY. Of course, if Djokovic wins all this doesn't matter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  7. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    I did not reject what ATP says. Your claim is that ATP rankings points prove it's a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments but you did not explain how ATP rankings points prove it.

    Nonsense, something is wrong with you. It's a fact that slams are big tournaments. It's questionable whether Olympics, WTF and MS1000 are big tournaments.

    You lost the argument. You failed to rebut the following argument: Wimbledon is tournament in the same category as US Open, French Open and Australian Open.
     
  8. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    By what criterion? Age? Draw size? Point value? Attendance? Prize money?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  9. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    It's logical that tournaments with most points are big tournaments according to ATP. It's common sense (something you lack).
     
  10. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    No. It's not common sense that only the category that awards the most points are "big" tournaments while all of the others are "small". That is your argument, and it doesn't hold water for a New York second. They could all be big, or small, or the line could be drawn elsewhere. Arbitrarily saying that it should be drawn right after the 4th tournament of the year just because that's the one your boy won won't get you anywhere but in troll-land.
     
  11. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/587387/tennis

    My argument is not that all other tournaments are small. I said it's questionable whether WTF and Olympics are big tournaments. Only person who lacks common sense can claim that there are no big tournaments.

    PS In my opinion:
    Big tournaments: Slams (fact)
    Medium tournaments: Olympics, WTF, MS 1000 (questionable)
    Small tournaments: ATP 500 and 250 (questionable)
     
  12. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    No it's not. It's questionable whether challengers are big tournaments. ATP tournaments are big tournaments, especially if some of the big 4 play, and especially if there are more than 500 points for the winner. Even more if their only played 1 time in every four years, or are worth 1500 points with sellout crowds every day. You can keep stating that it's not a FACT, but if you think it's questionable, than MAKE YOUR FREAKIN CASE, instead of just saying that it's not a fact.
     
  13. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Burden of proof is on people who make positive claim. I claim it's not a fact that Olympics and WTF are big tournaments which is a negative claim.
     
  14. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    In order to even make a claim of what is and is not considered a big tournament a set of criteria for determining what IS a big tournament must be established.

    Sooooo please tell us what is your criteria for determining a big tournament.
     
  15. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Oh, but you do, as you also stated many times that slams *are* big tournaments.
     
  16. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    I do not have to say what is my criteria for determining big tournaments. I have to provide reliable sources to show it's a fact that slams are big tournaments (which I did).

    Britannica http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/587387/tennis
     
  17. Nathaniel_Near

    Nathaniel_Near Talk Tennis Guru

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    Relax folks, ...
    It's amazing how many people spam this burden of proof bullpoop all the time, as if it's another established and irrefutable fact/principle that must be adhered to and is beyond question. It's also humourous how people have clung onto this fad like sheep and then presume that using it creates a certain justification for the implied ramifications of their reasoning for the topic in question.
     
  18. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

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    Major (pun intended) fail, young man. Nowhere does this state that the grand slam tournaments are "big" and all the others aren't. So, if that's your last-ditch defense, I'm afraid it's already been breached.

    Game, set, and match.
     
  19. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    Going by your logic :

    I'm a human, so you're not :)
     
  20. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Ok here is a reliable source to prove the World Tour Finals is a big tournament.

    Source ATP World Tour website: http://www.atpworldtour.com/News/Tennis/2012/11/45/London-Finale-One-Millionth-Fan.aspx

    Your argument against the Word Tour Finals loses.
     
  21. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    Britannica does say that slams are big tournaments. Checkmate.

    Can you explain why going by my logic you are a human and I'm not?

    If WTF is a prestigious tournament it does not mean it's a big tournament.



    You all lost the argument.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  22. Prisoner of Birth

    Prisoner of Birth Banned

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    What you said : "Grand Slams are big tournaments so the WTF isn't."

    I said : "I am a human so you are not."
     
  23. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    LMAO if there is one thing I have learned here at Talk Tennis it is you cannot argue with stupidity. You are a perfect example of that.

    Did you even read the article?

    Here are a few quotes directly from the article that reinforce big:

    "The Barclays ATP World Tour Finals today welcomed its 1 millionth fan through the doors of The O2 to watch the prestigious season finale."

    "It was announced this week that the world’s largest indoor tennis tournament would remain at The O2 through 2015 and that Barclays"

    "Watched by more than 70 million viewers in 184 countries in 2011"

    EDIT:

    Just for reference total attendance for the French Open in 2011 was 429,105 (source) which is less than half of the attendance of the WTF which has not yet completed.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
  24. 5555

    5555 Hall of Fame

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    I did not say that.

    You are an idiot. According to your logic WTF is bigger tournament than FO.
     
  25. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

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    Uhm, let's be clear here. I'm pretty sure those O2 million spectators came in 4 years. They added 2009, 2010, 2011 and 2012 together.
     
  26. Sabratha

    Sabratha G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, still roughly 500,000 people every year on average go to the O2.
     
  27. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    Yes you are correct. To be more specific this year attracted 263,229 spectators over 8 days.

    Here are some cool stats posted on ATP world tour website:
    ON TV
    • An estimated global cumulative audience of 100.7 million viewers tuned into the event.
    • Televised by 56 broadcasters in 193 territories, a total of 5,580 hours were broadcast across the eight days of the tournament, a 27% increase on 2011.
    • In the UK, more than 60 hours of coverage was featured live on Sky Sports and 20 hours on terrestrial television on BBC.

    ONLINE
    • ATPWorldTour.com attracted 3.4 million unique visitors throughout the tournament, a 10% increase on 2011.
    • Live match streaming on TennisTV.com, the ATP’s official live streaming site, received more than 3.75 million total streams, an increase of 25% on 2011.
    • ATP World Tour content posted to Facebook exceeded 40 million impressions (222% increase on 2011) and conversations on Twitter grew 93% from last year.
    • ATP’s official YouTube channel drove 727,800 views and nearly 1 million minutes watched during the week (45% increase in views on 2011).
    • ATP Official Live Scoring Flash and Mobile Applications recorded more than 23 million page impressions and total user sessions in excess of 3.1 million for the week.
     
  28. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    ^^ How do those stats compare to the second week of a Grand Slam?
     
  29. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Give it a rest people. the WTF IS an important/prestigious tournament.

    A player who's consider one of all time great but not winning at least 1 WTF would have a big hole in their resume.
     
  30. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

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    I dont know but here are some stats on Grand Slam total attendance:
    US Open 2012: 710,803
    French Open 2011: 429,105
    Wimbledon 2012: 484,805
    Australian Open 2012: 686,006

    So the Word Tour Finals over 8 days and played on 1 court had over 283000 people which is 65% of the French Open total attendance which is held over 14 days and 15+ courts.

    I'd say the World Tour Finals is every bit as big as some of the Grand Slams.
     
  31. veroniquem

    veroniquem Bionic Poster

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    Well, it turns out the POTY this year is the WTF winner as well. Not always true but it is this year. Also it was more significant for this season than others because the 2 top players' records were relatively close. In 2011 for instance, it didn't matter because no player could have overtaken Djoko, WTF title or not.
     

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