You make the (captain's) call

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by AR15, Oct 27, 2011.

  1. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    Here's what happened:

    Home team captain calls away captain the afternoon of the upcoming night match and says he's going to have to forfeit 2 of the 4 courts to be played that night. Knowing they only have two courts to fill away team shows up with a modified lineup + 2 extra players that came to spectate. Away team captain is out of town, so he sends co-captain with instructions for the night.

    The two courts start their matches on schedule with both captain/co-captain's playing. Home team has two players show up late (past deadline) and say they want to play. The two extra away players say they will play them and count it as a league match. Away team wins the first 2 courts, and loses the late starting 3rd court.

    After match, home captain records scores for all 3 courts, and takes the forfeit for the 4th court. The away captain see the scores, and sees the loss of the 3rd court that he thought he won by forfeit. The results of this match place the away team in the final position of 2nd place in the league, instead of the first place they would have if they had not lost this 3rd court.

    The captain of the away team reprimanded his players and told them they had no authority to play their match as an official match. His co-captain said he was not aware of the 3rd match being played as an official match, and furthermore confirmed that they started late and past the deadline.

    The away captain called the home captain and told him that he didn't think the 3rd court should have counted, and that the scores needed to be corrected. The home captain did not give in. The away captain is now about to call the league chairman and argue his case.



    As captain of the away team, what would YOU do?

    What would you do to prevent this from happening in the future?
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
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  2. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    1. Away captain should put his big boy pants on.

    If your players fail to take a penalty and instead decide to play straight up, that is the end of it. Away captain loses.

    Also, proferred defaults can be withdrawn with the consent of both sides. The players and acting captain accepted. Away captain loses.
    loses.

    2. What should away captain do next time? Tell the whole team beforehand that players must accept and demand all penalties for tardiness, etc. If you don't want to do that, then accept the consequences.

    Cindy -- who tells her players they are free to enforce or waive penalties
     
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  3. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    Neither acting captain was aware that the match played on 3rd court was being played as an official match. Do you still stand by your decision?

    And yes, defaults can be withdrawn, but neither acting captain (in this case) made any decision to withdraw the default. The players acted alone in making the decision. Did the players have the authority to over ride the agreement made between the captains earlier in the day?
     
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  4. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    Cindy, do you give your players such authority on a match that decides if you win the season?

    FWIW - I am not on either team.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
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  5. goober

    goober Legend

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    The 3rd match should count. All of the players involved agreed that it would count as a league match before it started. The acting captains said nothing- but obviously knew the match was going on. By allowing it to happen, that is approval IMO. Acting captains ARE the captains for that match. It is their responsibility to KNOW! IF they don't ask then they don't have anybody to blame but themselves. Prior agreements do not supercede actions by the acting captains on match day.
     
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  6. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I do give them that authority.

    Go by the scorecards, which should list two players who are taking the default and "DF" for the home team. Period.
     
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  7. spot

    spot Hall of Fame

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    Are there no lineup exchanges in your area? Its one thing if the lineups were exchanged with the defaults on there- then I don't think that the players can undo that without an acting captain signing off. But if there wasn't a lineup exchange and the away players agreed to play it as a league match then I think the match stands.
     
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  8. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    Goober, as the captain of teams myself, when I am actually playing my match, I am focusing on my match, and not guessing what is going on other courts. And often, social matches are being played on courts adjacent to league matches, so captains (that are playing) do not necessarily know what is going on the other courts.

    In this case, the away co-captain said he saw the players playing, but was not consulted, and didn't even know if all 4 players were on the teams playing. The home captain did not know they were playing a league match either (at the time).

    When the first two courts started playing, it was understood (at the time) that all players playing that night were accounted for and ready to play,and the match started accordingly. I don't think the acting captains had an understanding that later matches might start that evening, the next day, or the next week, without their knowledge.
     
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  9. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    That is a very good question. YES, the acting captains exchanged lineups. The home captain verbally acknowledged that he was forfeiting 2 courts. The first two courts began playing on time. The 3rd court began about 15 minutes later, and about 10 minutes past the league rule deadline time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
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  10. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    The third match should count. It was played in good faith with the understanding amojng the players that it would count. The (acting) captain should have told the players not to play a counting match if he/she didn't want the match to count.

    Consider this, if the (acting) captain were not playing and the two guys from the other team showed up and his players wanted to play (and all four guys wanted the match to count), what would he have done?

    (a) Told them to play and it would count.
    (b) Told them to play but it has to be exhibition.
    (c) Told them not to go on the court at all.

    Without the knowledge that losing that court would cost them the league title, I think all but the most cutthroat would have chosen (a) and said "yeah, sure, go ahead and play since there are 4 people here". If that is the case, then trying to reverse the score on a technicality AFTER you know what the ramifications of the loss is is NOT fair.
     
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  11. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly.

    Even the most green acting captain understands that you exchange lineups, right? In writing? Surely the acting captain didn't exchange lineups with a high five?
     
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  12. GlennK

    GlennK Rookie

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    I am not sure what the official rules would say in our USTA league, but as a captain I would stand by the players offering to play. They stepped up and all four played in good faith.

    Glenn
     
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  13. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    If a line-up was exchanged showing two defaults, then those defaults should stand. I would argue that no changes to the line-up as exchanged can be made without the agreement of both (acting) captains. Based on the information provided, this didn't happen.

    If a line-up wasn't exchanged then the captains created this mess themselves. Who am I to clean it up?
     
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  14. goober

    goober Legend

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    Follow the league rules that both captains/acting captains must sign off on scorecards after the match.
     
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  15. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    This is a local league with rules a little different from USTA: The rules in question are:

    5. The team Captain or his designee must be present at the designated starting time to exchange scorecards with the official lineup for each match.

    6. If team members in the lineup are not present, substitutions may be made prior to the start of the match from other members of the official team roster. After fifteen (15) minutes from the designated starting time, matches must be defaulted. When default occurs, one pair must be present in order to win the point, although this does not apply to individually scheduled make-up matches.

    8. At the conclusion of the Dual Meet, both Team Captains will confirm scores. Both captains are responsible for reporting the scores on the BATA website within forty-eight (48) hours.


    In this case, the acting captains did not follow rule 8. They did however, follow rule 5 by exchanging lineups. They started the first 2 courts on time. Court 3, according to rule 6 above, defaulted because it started 20 minutes after the designated start time.


    Also, I find it very interesting that the home court pair that showed up late, to play on court 3, were this team's usual court 1 players.
     
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  16. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    First of all, knowing all the parties involved adds another level of humor to this. As soon as I read your post I was off to the league website.

    My inclination is that the default occurred before the match started so there was no way for the extra two players to play a legal match, even if it had started before the 15 minute cutoff. The fact that it started after that cutoff time to me adds further evidence that the match was unofficial, despite what the players in question agreed to. Not to mention that the lineup that was exchanged pre-match had two defaults for the home team on it. Also, the away captain would have possibly (very likely) sent a different team if he'd know there was a chance they'd actually play given how close the league was at the top and that this was the final match.

    Since it appears that away team would just tie for league lead if they got that final point for the match, would they win the tiebreak, whatever that is? I guess I'm asking if the away captain is sure the point would matter should he win his appeal. I have no idea how tiebreaks are settled. Is it head to head?

    It looks like home team was in the league cellar so I don't really see any good reason for them pulling any fast one here by intentionally having their number 1 team arrive late. I guess I don't see what they'd have to gain.

    EDIT: after reading the rules again, I think the key issue actually is, "did the match start within the required 15 minute time gap?" That appears to be the only way a match can be defaulted since the rules say the other team must have two members present in order to claim that win by default. Since it didn't start within the league mandated time frame, the match defaulted after 15 minutes passed, regardless of what the late arriving home players and the two spectating away players later decided to do.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
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  17. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    OP, you still have not told us the key fact:

    What does the scorecard say?

    Yes, you can substitute players for players on the line-up. Presumably, this means you can write the names of two players in after you scratch out the word "Default."

    If no one did this, then there was no substitution and the court does not count. If no one wrote "Default," and the line was left blank and no names were ever entered, then I still say that court does not count.

    Really. We cannot have players meeting up with their pals and agreeing that their agreement will override what is written on the scorecard.

    I let my players decide things like how much slack to give on things like tardiness. What they cannot do is override what is written on the scorecard.
     
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  18. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    To me these are the critical points. Once the home captain forfeited it can't be undone. Beyond that, at 15 minutes the default occurred, regardless of what happened later and because the away teams players were present at that time, they take the win according to the league rules.

    If the league rules otherwise I would really like to know on what basis they do so. I have been to many matches where there have been pre-match forfeits and only those players who were required to play showed up. The rules apparently say that all eight players must show up for a team to have a chance to win all courts, whether through actual play or through forfeit. That seems stupid, but that is the literal interpretation of rule 6 as I see it.
     
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  19. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    ^Our league has a "no backsies" rule on defaults. Once you tell the opposing captain that you are defaulting a court, you cannot take it back unless the opposing captain consents. It seems to me that this league does not have a "no backsies" rule.

    As for the 20 minutes . . . eh.

    Say you have a match where one player gets pulled over by the cops and is detained. She calls and tells her captain that she is on her way. She arrives five minutes past the default period, while the captains are busy playing their matches. She pleads with the opposing players, who take pity on her and agree to play the match.

    The tardy player who should have been defaulted wins the match. I say that match stands because the players decided to waive the default period. I do not think the match should be disregarded.

    And, of course, I know of instances where players decided to just go ahead and start the match even though someone missed the 15 minute deadline.
     
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  20. g4driver

    g4driver Hall of Fame

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    my .02:

    Lineups were exchanged with verbally acknowledgment forfeiting two courts.

    If the acting Captain goes to a court and starts playing, he/she has no idea what the other players agreed to and it doesn't matter that they agreed to play the match late. The two Captains (acting or normal) exchanged lineups and the other Captain acknowledged the defaults. Both Captains then starting playing on a court, and see four players playing near them. End of story. They have already concluded two courts were defaulted and play on.

    I would personally write default on my lineup card, and show the card to the other Captain then go play my match. The players on the team have no authority to "undue" a default in our local league. League rules exist. Follow your local rules.

    I think the defaults should stand as defaults. That Captain who stated he was defaulting two courts needs to man-up and do what he agreed to. What goes around comes around.
     
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  21. chollyred

    chollyred Rookie

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    Just to throw another argument in...

    Since I haven't played USTA, not sure how it works, but in ALTA, the number 1 TEAM would not be allowed to drop two lines to number 3. That point would have been defaulted anyway. One player can drop two lines, but a team can only drop one line.

    If the rule is the same in USTA, then they HAVE to default hat point.
     
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  22. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    I guess I'm slow because I don't understand what you wrote at all. When you say drop, do you mean default?

    This league is all doubles, four teams play per match. If a team can only produce 6 players on the match day and time before the 15 minute timer runs out, they default one line. If a team can only produce 4 players, they default two lines and so on.
     
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  23. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    if the home players show up late, and, and the away team is willing, let them play and let it count. Sheesh. and what is this crap about the home team players having "no authority to play their match as an official match"? Sounds like a power mad captain.

    As the away team captain i would get counseling about my need to exert control over every aspect of life, including things that take place when I am not there, and including things that really do not matter in life.

    In the future the away team captain should take plenty of prozac.

     
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  24. chollyred

    chollyred Rookie

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    In ALTA, there are 5 lines of doubles. If you play line 1 one week, you as an individual can move only as far down as line 3 the next week. As a team, if you and your partner stay together, you can only move down 1 line, say from line 1 to line 2.

    Maybe in USTA since everyone is supposed to have the same level it doesn't matter?
     
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  25. SweetH2O

    SweetH2O Rookie

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    chollyred, those player movement rules are exclusive to ALTA. USTA doesn't use them. Some other local level leagues might have something similar to deter sandbagging, but not the same to the level of detail you are talking about. ALTA is it's own separate animal in that regard.
     
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  26. chollyred

    chollyred Rookie

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    Then in that case, the players paid to play, showed up to play (albeit late), and played in good faith, so the point should stand. Sometimes people get waylayed by traffic or some other emergency that prevents them from being on the dot. As far as court fees? Whoever was responsible for them had the players been there on time should still pony up.

    Yeah, I know league rules stipulate that a default can be declared if 15 minutes late, but where's the sportmanship in that? That's more gamesmanship. Play nice, play fair, and beat their pants off on the court. Taking an unnecessary default is a cheap shot.
     
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  27. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    The point is the home team captain told the away team captain that TWO lines were going to be forfeited before the match even occurred. It was just by chance that two extra members of the away team showed up to watch and then agreed, on their own without consulting the acting captain at the match, to play an official match. The away team captain should have had the opportunity to field his best team to play, not just two random members who showed up, given that the away team was in second place for this last match of the season and would tie for first in the league if they won all 4 lines.

    It certainly doesn't seen very sporting to me for the home team captain to say beforehand that he was forfeiting two lines and then accept a win played against a team which in all likelihood would not have been the actual opponent if the away team had been told three lines would play. How in the world anyone here but the home team captain can be accused of bad sportsmanship is beyond me.

    I looked at the two away team members who did play and this was their only time to play with each other EVER.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2011
    #27
  28. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Beernutz, is it me, or are your two posts (27 and 23) saying opposite things?
     
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  29. SweetH2O

    SweetH2O Rookie

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    #23 and #27 were written by two different people. So yeah, it's just you. :twisted:
     
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  30. blakesq

    blakesq Professional

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    what am I, chopped liver?

     
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  31. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Whoops!! Sorry! :)
     
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  32. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Professional

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    I agree with beernutz. Captains agreed to default prior. The guys who showed up were just "spectators" and may not have been the people the captain would have selected to play had a default not been agreed to. Match was played late and therefore technically a default anyway.

    Match 3 should not count.
     
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  33. michael_1265

    michael_1265 Professional

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    To look at this from a different perspective, it is just an example of how the USTA flight TB procedure stinks. HTH record really should be the first tiebreak. Who cares about the number of lines you have won, as long as you win the match?
     
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  34. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    This isn't USTA and the league champion is decided by total lines won over the course of the season. The top team ended up with one more line won over the course of this season, 28, than the away team in this scenario which won 27 but would have won 28 if the two defaults in the last match were awarded. I don't know the tie break procedure to determine the winner between the two of them if they actually do end the season tied but it could be head to head.
     
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