You're Roger Federer playing a 4.0, what is your experience?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by HunterST, Dec 14, 2010.

  1. shazbot

    shazbot Semi-Pro

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    I mean, I cannot prove to you via video that I have hit with a pro.

    http://www.thewestboroclub.com/meet-our-staff/

    Is the club I belong too, that page shows the bio's of the tennis staff at our club. Just read through them and you will see which pro I am talking about. Check his ATP page if you would like.

    I agree that when he hits with us, even if we tell him to go all out, it is probably hard for him to really take it serious. He definitely hits harder, he definitely has more control and he does everything better. He does net a ball occasionally though during a rally. Just saying. The best money I have ever spent was joining a 10 week clinic with my buddies with him running the clinic. For 300 bucks I was able to get more tennis knowledge and plenty of advise on things I need to work on. Money well spent.
     
  2. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Alright, man. Although that's not proof in the strictest sense of the word, it definitely makes it easier for me to believe you.

    By the way, you've got a crazy nice club. I supposed mine is quite a bit cheaper, though. (I hope)
     
  3. shazbot

    shazbot Semi-Pro

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    Eh I think my club is actually quite reasonable, compared to some North East clubs. I pay about 58 bucks a month membership fee and then court fees are around: $42/hour for singles, 21 split per person, then split that four ways for doubles, so $10.25 an hour for doubles per person.

    They have a lot of courts so it's nice. Five hard courts and six clay courts.

    I definitely agree that if playing a real life match situation, a 4.0 would probably not win a point in a set to a top 100 player. Every point would not be an instant winner off the pro though. Anything short, yea probably a winner. But if you can keep some depth on your shots, which would be hard, you could probably get into at least a few 4-5 shot rallies lol. That's really only if you get a good first serve in. That will probably never happen on their service games.
     
  4. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    Well, I did play with Federer once in a doubles. We were a scratch pairing and as soon as I walked on court I realised my partner was a club player and we were going to get tanked. Third point in I went and grabbed a life size cut out of Federer and placed it on the court. It had been left there from a Wilson demo day. I should have taken a photo.
     
  5. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    That's not too bad considering how nice it looked. My club is about 15 bucks per hour, haha. It's not nearly as well equipped as your's, though. But we have 6 indoor courts in good condition so it gets the job done!

    To be honest, like you kind of pointed out, I doubt a 4.0 could get many of a pro's shots back with much depth. I'm about a weak 4.0 and I have trouble keeping my shots deep when playing a hard hitting 4.5.

    I could maybe see A FEW 5 stroke rallies per match, however.

    -4.0 hits exceptional serve
    -Pro slices back neutral return
    -4.0 hits a strong shot (for him)
    -Pro hits good shot
    -4.0 weak reply
    -pro: winner.

    This would be with the 4.0 playing his absolute best tennis, though, and it would only happens once or twice per match (which I think you have kind of said from the beginning).
     
  6. bhupaes

    bhupaes Professional

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    I can see the 4.0 winning a point thusly:

    -4.0 hits exceptional serve
    -Pro slices back neutral return
    -4.0 shanks massively; ball just makes it over net and backspins crazily
    -Pro: lunges for the ball and can't make it!! :)
     
  7. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I still say that NO two 4.0's are the same, or play the same.
    You get the pusher/consistent guys.
    You get the net playing, go for broke guys.
    You get first serves from 80 to 130 mph.
    You get weirdo lefties, some righties, some 2hbh's.
    You get some experenced in hitting against and with 5.5's OR BETTER.
    You get some who have never hit with a 4.5.
    Now which would be intimadated and which would have the shots to WIN a point or 4 against the top player in the world?
     
  8. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Seriously...No 4.0 has a 130 mph serve.
     
  9. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    a 4.0 Fed would find the weak wing of the other guy and hit serves there. then every few games at 30 or 40-love throw in a S&V.
    control points with his forehand trying to make the opponent cough up a weak ball, then attack the ball.
    use a deep slice and when he is 100% sure he will rip the backhand.
    he will throw in some chip and charges here and there.
    but the 4.0 fed wins/loses by his forehand.
     
  10. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    I played a 4.5 and he won 3 points in 2 sets, all miscued service returns.
    I played a #96 and did not even manage 3 points.
     
  11. counterpuncher64

    counterpuncher64 New User

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    I dunno, I think that some people play better against hard hitters. I know that back before I became a counter puncher, I would play much better against people who were better than me that hit harder compared to beginners that hit it really short and with some crazy spin from constant shanks. I think if its a 4.0 like that, they might play decently against Fed. They might not win many points, but they might be able to get some balls back and make some interesting rallies because they handle pace better than junk balls from pushers.
     
  12. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Hunter, WRONG!
    The biggest servers are NOT pro tennis players, but some hack who just happens to serve unreal.
    The biggest drivers in golf are NOT PGA pros, but some hack who's big and happens to drive the ball far.
    The longest throws in most any sport and NOT done by professional athletes, but by some wanna be who tried for 4 years, failed, and does his thing he can do.
    I served 129.4 in 1978 as a C player, or 3.5. LowellBarnhardt won the fast serve contest for amateurs going 129.6. We both served faster than ANY A/OPEN players, and more than half the pros who entered.
    Lowell was content to play B tournaments, mostly going a few rounds in each.
    I bypassed the B tournaments, went to A/Opens, said "hi" to him at the tourneys, and proceeded to go 2-4 rounds in A/Open tourneys. Not every tourney, I lost first round in at least 4 out ot 11 A/Opens.
    Lowell was 5'10" and 170 lbs. of linebacker material.
    I was 5'11" and around 135, but played OLB for LincolnHigh's varsity football team.
     
  13. MNPlayer

    MNPlayer Semi-Pro

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    Hate to say it but LeeD may have a point here. I worked with a guy who enters those long drive contests in golf and hits like 400 yards. He would have no chance as a pro golfer but the guy is huge and can really crank the ball! Maybe serving hard is not all there is to tennis? Granted, you still have to get it in the box.
     
  14. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Okay so "guy that tried for 4 years) implies that they were close to becoming a pro. So that would mean, by your estimation, that the best servers would be 5.5s or 6.5s. 4.0s aren't even close to being pro caliber.

    Also, none of your statements can be proved with even slightly credible evidence.

    P.S. You can't just make up people and situations to prove your point. :twisted:
     
  15. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Countered by....
    IN YOUR EXPERIENCE! Which is singular, very short term, has no background compared to anyone's 35 years of watching and playing tennis, in your little neck of the woods (I'm from SanFrancisco, where a high schooler #2 can WIN the CanadianOpen the year after graduation).
    Quite oftentimes, people say stuff based solely on their experience. Guess what, they HAVE NO EXPERIENCE, at least none compared to other players.
    Just how long have you watched upper level tennis? How long have you hit with guys 4.0 and up? Just how many 4.0's have you had experience with?
     
  16. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Point taken.

    Just saying, I'm not going to buy that there are 4.0s that are serving 130mph when most rec players can't even break 100. Not until I see something that actually suggests that.

    Especially considering that, in my opinion, you'd need great form to get 130. That form would probably mean you were at least mildly consistent. Serving above 110, you're not going to be 4.0 very long.
     
  17. deluxe

    deluxe Semi-Pro

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    Some people serve 110 but aren't very accurate, and they telegraph which side they're going and what type of serve it is. On a slow bouncing hard court, that serve is coming back every time.
     
  18. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    And they have bad technique, which breaks down after 30 mins or their arm falls off. Not exactly M Stich.
     
  19. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    So now we're saying that the only 4.0's that count are the ones staying at that level?
    You know, sometimes players advance or decline, their levels changing year after year.
    I did not say EVERY 4.0 can hit 130.
    But any talented player has to run thru the 4.0 level, and lots of them skip right up to 5.5's. That's a lot of players who CAN hit 130.
     
  20. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Well, by that definition, every player in the world that ever hit 130mph would count as a 4.0 that could do so. That's silly.

    Maybe there are a few 4.0s that can hit 130mph serves in the world. My guess, however, would be that they are less than 1% of the total population of 4.0s.

    Just for the record. You're arguing the affirmative. You're saying "there ARE 4.0s who can hit 130mph." Therefore, the burden of proof lies on your end of the debate.

    You HAVE to prove there is at least one 4.0 in the world that can hit 130mph serve, otherwise your argument has no legs.

    By the way, proof is not saying something like: "I know a guy named RobbieMcBarnhart that hit a 132.3 mph serve in 1973"
     
  21. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    :):)
    Guess what? You have never been shot. So by your definitions, it's not possible for you to get shot.
    YOU have never seen a 4.0 level player hit a 130 mph serve, by your definition, it just cannot exist.
     
  22. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Nah bro, I'm just saying that I can't possibly prove there are NO 4.0s who serve 130. You COULD, however, prove that they exist.
     
  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    :):)
    and I've been shot at, at least two separate occasions... from the backseat of the taxi I was driving...:shock:
    Since you don't know LowellBarnhardt, or MikeHoward, or too many rising 4.0 players, it's impossible for provide YOU proof. I know they exist. My 129 speeds might not be the norm, but I was far from the biggest or strongest C player (3.5) around.
    Basically, any hammerhead 6'5" x 225 lbs lunk can hammer a 130 mph serve after playing tenns for 3 years, about what it takes to become a solid 3.5 player.
     
  24. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    So now your inability to support your argument is my fault because I don't know two obscure people? C'mon man.

    You're a 4.0 right? You can serve in the 120s right? Post a video of yourself. 120mph will be close enough for me to count it as proof.
     
  25. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    I have played a lot of tennis, and I have never seen a 4.0 serve at 130.

    In typical conditions, not the best balls, outside etc I don't know many people who hit over 110, and that is at national league level. Paul Scullard is British Open Champion and about as good as you get without being on the Tour clocks 120, and his serve is huge, immense.

    I sat thru a Wilson demo day and not a player hit higher than 97, that was hundreds of club players.
     
  26. thebuffman

    thebuffman Professional

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    chiming in real late on this thread but adding my 2c nonetheless. it is hard for any of us to imagine what it is like being a professional while playing any sport. the pros are really just that good. for example i remember watch this pro table tennis player instruct a friend of mine. he was trying to teach him how to slam from any position & height of the ball. my friend thought the guy was nutz until the pro demonstrated it. people - this guy was sickening good. he was doing stuff on that table that literally made no sense. another example is steph maubury retired nba player. somebody asked him once what the difference was between the nba and rec play. steph goes, "this here is the difference". he starts drilling play ground shots from half court (as i am told).

    a guy like fed does not see tennis in terms of strokes, he has all the strokes. he sees tennis in dimensions of angles and strategy. he can literally put the ball anywhere on the court he wishes. against us, he would definitely do it because we are firstly in no condition to punish any of his poor shot selections. against nadal he has to be very selective with shot selection.

    good topic of discussion. my friends and i talk about this all the time. we generally admit the same dudes we call sorry who play nba basketball, you know those guys who come off the bench or never have any plays run them and have to score garbage points, would destroy us in a pickup game.

    lastly, a friend of mine who worked very closely with the msu basketball team would attend the scrimmages held during the summer with the current bball team vs the alumni. the alumni would include dudes like magic johnson and steve smith. as we know, magic is wayyyyy overweight. my boy was laughing as he was telling me how magic would be out there schooling the msu basketball team. his understanding of angles and positioning always allows him to get off his shot exactly how he wanted it. he said that the msu boys couldn't beat the old heads.

    in a nutshell, we will never be able to even imagine fitting into the profile of a professional. they are the best of the best. they have studied countless hours of film, strategy, methodologies, and philosophy. they understand the scope of probable responses to their execution.

    okay i'm babbling. 2c done.
     
  27. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Simply put, it wouldn't be much of a match. There used to be a video online of Federer hitting with some Juniors of varying ages and skills in NY. He just toyed with them, going at half-speed and putting the ball where he wanted to keep the rally going. He would absolutely destroy a 4.0 even at 1/2 speed.

    Most 4.0s don't have much experience with the spin and speed that a top pro considers normal. If you watch the pros in person for a few days, you start to realize how large the skill gap is. A pro doesn't find a 130mph serve unusual, and can probably return it if he isn't overly stretched or jammed. The vast majority of 4.0s will never experience trying to return a 130mph serve in their lives. The pros practice with each other all the time at major tournaments and see heavy shots almost every day of the year.
     
  28. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Buffman,

    I think you made a lot of good points. Federer definitely sees tennis in terms of strategy, and angles to a much, much greater degree than rec players. However, he certainly still thinks about strokes. I've seen lots of pro players actually shadow a stroke motion during a match. That means they're thinking about how to perform that stroke during the match. We've all heard players say things like their second serve was off, or their backhand was letting them down.

    Basically, at the rec level, players think about strokes and mechanics first and strategy second. Pros think primarily about strategy and mechanics are secondary.

    Just wanted to make the distinction that pros still do think about their stroke mechanics.
     
  29. Netspirit

    Netspirit Hall of Fame

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    ^ 4.0 players hitting 130 mph (world-class) serves must be so unique that it is hard to believe they exist.

    The ten best tennis pros of this planet can break 130 mph, but it seldom happens. They are able to achieve that mileage after starting early, practicing for decades, with all physical training, professional coaching, special diet and pharmaceutical tricks a human get get. It is close to the physiological limits of the human body. I have not seen a 140 mph serve on TV for months, if not years. Roddick himself has not been able to repeat his 155 mph serve ever since.

    A 4.0 player with a 130 mph serve must be a real enthusiast who would have been 5.0 or 6.0 if he spent that time practicing other elements of the game. After all, a great deal of that speed gets absorbed by the air and the court surface, so adding 10 mph does not pay off as much as adding 10% to backhand reliability.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2010
  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Actually, Netspirit has something there.
    I never said YOU, as a 4.0, can hit 130 mph serves.
    I said "some 4.0's can hit 130 serves". I did NOT say me. But I know quite a few rising players who went on to easily 5.0's, who had to spend some time at 4.0 (talking guys who started older than juniors), who didn't play as teenagers, who COULD hit that speed, and DID hit that speed, when they were timed.
    And it doesn't take 10 years to hit a tennis serve 130. IF you can do it, it takes maybe 2 years of quality practice, emulation, and some instruction. If you can't do it within 4 years (after your body has come close to maturing), you just don't have the physical makeup and ability to hit 130 mph serves, no matter what else you do.
    Now you're gonna mention "this" guy who hit 127 all his life, and with a change of strings, hit 131. OK, I'll give you that.
     
  31. Manus Domini

    Manus Domini Hall of Fame

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    would practice his slices and weaker shots that his opponent could actually get to, and hope he gets a return. if he actually tried, i would give the opponent 8 min at most (not counting breaks between games)
     
  32. FedError

    FedError Semi-Pro

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twAxtUMLbWE#t=0m46s

    I believe Roddick can and still does serve 140+ at will, as indicated by the video. He just doesn't do it too often to save his shoulder, and to improve consistency and accuracy.

    Federer is one of the best at returning big serves; you can bet he can put almost any 130mph serves from 4.0s back in play, since he needn't worry much about the placement of his return.
     
  33. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Great point. Even if there is some amazing 130mph 4.0 server, he wouldn't have the placement needed to cause a pro trouble. If the pro can get to the serve, he's going to get it back the vast majority of the time.
     
  34. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    "vast majority of the time" doesn't nearly mean EVERY time.
     
  35. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    What are you even arguing against now? We were debating whether there are 4.0s who can hit 130mph serves. We weren't debating its effect on the pro.

    C'mon Lee, post a video of yourself hitting 120 mph serves and I will concede that there are 4.0s who can hit 130.
     
  36. fruitytennis1

    fruitytennis1 Professional

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    I wish i knew
    I have a friend whos "decent" at tennis and hes hit 122.
    I dont really know Ntrp but hes ranked like 600 in U18
     
  37. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    OK, let's take an old fart, maybe NolanRyan, and hand him a tennis racket.
    He's played tennis before, I'd bet, but not at a 4.0 level.
    Now have him serve some fast ones to you. I'll BET he breaks 125mph the FIRST day, and goes up from thereafter. ONE.
    Now there's this skinny kid named RandyJohnson, a lefty......
     
  38. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    Pure speculation. Give me some even moderately credible evidence.

    By the way, I highly doubt even a major league pitcher would hit serves in at 125 on the first day of serving.
     
  39. Kick_It

    Kick_It Semi-Pro

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    If I were Fed, I'd be bored silly, trying to keep my composure and make it looked like I cared, while fulfilling my promotional obligation ;-)

    K_I
     
  40. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Well, certainly the chances of NolanRyan hitting a serve faster than 103 the first day is higher than anyone who hasn't had a throwing ball sports background.
    A soccer player is a great athlete, but don't expect him to serve a tennis ball, or throw a ball, very far.
    A baseball pitcher is a great athlete, you can bet he'll throw far, but don't expect him to run around changing directions with clean lines or direction.
    From the first week of our tennis, both MikeGabrian and I always drew spectators watching us practice our serves to each other. Always the loudest POP of anyone around.
     
  41. gngam

    gngam New User

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    There is no way that a 4.0 will win a point off of Roger Federer. Federer's placement and movement are just WAY too god for any non-pro to handle.

    I bet a 4.0 would be lucky to win 3 points if Federer was playing left handed.
     
  42. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

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    Watching him really play, I don't know if I could get a point, but I think I could get into a few rallies...I would just try to crush every shot.

    But I don't think I could get any of his serves back, so it would have to be on mine. But yeah, his depth and pace would make it tough to even get a single point.
     

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