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SATennis 11-30-2006 04:02 PM

Tennis Rating System
 
Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before. But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

Ash Doyle 11-30-2006 04:27 PM

http://www.tencaptennis.com/

SATennis 11-30-2006 05:23 PM

Yeah, I know the website. I was really looking for someone with some experience with TENCAP, trying to see if anyone outside of the Kansas CIty community has heard of it or had any experience with it.

cak 11-30-2006 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATennis (Post 1095114)
Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before.

Why don't you just look the player up on tennislink? And if they don't have a rating subtract 1 (4.5-1 = 3.5) and set your player up with that level? I've played with other players around the country at tennis camps and resorts, and that pretty much sums up the rating discrepancy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATennis (Post 1095114)
But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

I haven't used TENCAP, but in NorCal, for one brief season they attempted to kick off a similar system where you enter all scores (even social games) and it would show your DNTRP out to three decimal places. Your rating changed with each match. USTA league matches were automatically entered. What NorCal found was, you still can cheat the system. More decimal places doesn't make it more accurate. And ladies are more likely to tell you their real weight than tell you their social game scores.

SATennis 11-30-2006 07:08 PM

I would imagine the winners of matches are likely to tell you the real scores. This system apparently allows you to view your rating and your previous matches online on your personal page. I am considering implimenting it at my club. I know of a few of my players already interested. It definitely works for the golf.

cak 11-30-2006 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATennis (Post 1095493)
I would imagine the winners of matches are likely to tell you the real scores. This system apparently allows you to view your rating and your previous matches online on your personal page. I am considering implimenting it at my club. I know of a few of my players already interested.

Here's the cheating part. When you enter scores you can tell immediately how it affects your rating. In TPI (our version) used the DNTRP algoritm. You could tell how much different a 6-1, 6-1 win would affect your score, versus a 6-4, 6-4 win. Winners would fudge the scores so they didn't move their rating. Losers would be happy not to be go down. Or folks would sandbag to ensure their ratings weren't moving. Or they would put scores in for friends they didn't play against, who aren't following the scores because they are injured and haven't been on the court for months. Or they would borrow people's names and ratings to put in a foursome where 3 players had numbers, and the fourth was about the same rating they figured. You need more than a few to participate, you need buy in from all the players for the scores to be entered correctly and people to be checking the scores. At our club we were on the system because of a few players, and the rest made it into a joke so even the few players couldn't get decent readings out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATennis (Post 1095493)
It definitely works for the golf.

The thing about golf is you are playing yourself. Your good, or bad score does not affect anyone else's rating.

chess9 12-01-2006 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cak (Post 1095592)
Here's the cheating part. When you enter scores you can tell immediately how it affects your rating. In TPI (our version) used the DNTRP algoritm. You could tell how much different a 6-1, 6-1 win would affect your score, versus a 6-4, 6-4 win. Winners would fudge the scores so they didn't move their rating. Losers would be happy not to be go down. Or folks would sandbag to ensure their ratings weren't moving. Or they would put scores in for friends they didn't play against, who aren't following the scores because they are injured and haven't been on the court for months. Or they would borrow people's names and ratings to put in a foursome where 3 players had numbers, and the fourth was about the same rating they figured. You need more than a few to participate, you need buy in from all the players for the scores to be entered correctly and people to be checking the scores. At our club we were on the system because of a few players, and the rest made it into a joke so even the few players couldn't get decent readings out of it.



The thing about golf is you are playing yourself. Your good, or bad score does not affect anyone else's rating.

Golf handicaps are notoriously low because no one is supervising the round. The amount of cheating in golf is 100 times greater than in tennis, at least. Most golfers don't know the rules, and break them several times a round.

-Robert

chess9 12-01-2006 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATennis (Post 1095114)
Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before. But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

Of course, you can never guard against sandbagging I assume, which is a problem in rated tennis. Does this system help that problem in some way?

-Robert

SATennis 12-01-2006 08:48 AM

I think it is difficult to prevent some type of Sandbagging. The plan is to get everyone at the club into the Tencap system. It has a rating chart that compares with the NTRP system, so as a starting point, I can use players current NTRP rating to give them a Tencap Rating. The Tencap system apparently only changes a players rating after 8 sets. But once the players play enough sets, the ratings should start to sort them out. If all my players are on a tencap and can see the results of all the sets they have played throughout the year and how their rating has improved or dropped, I think they would be more ethusiastic to play, and hopefully more keen to improve so it would increase my club's lesson revenue.

If I can the get other clubs in my area to use the system, I could host interclub events based on the system. The rating system can also act as handicap, so the difference in two players ratings will be equivalent to the number of points the weaker player gets to use at any time during the set. I think that could be a fun tournament to run. Try prevent the guy that always wins from winning by leveling the playing field.

I have been told that the system also allows club administration to arrange events, and organize player lists according to rating or league team etc. So that will be a useful feature for me as well. I think the company is just starting out, so I don't know of how many other clubs are using the system. Hopefully someone out there has heard of it.

spectraflamed 12-05-2006 11:25 PM

I honestly filled out the rating wizard and ended up with a 37 which seems pretty high or I guess low since the lower the better. If I had to just guess I would have thought around 45-46 would have been correct for me.

Cindysphinx 12-06-2006 04:02 AM

I filled it out and got a 48. I told the computer I win 25% of my matches (which is a tad low), but I bumped myself to a 3 for conditioning, strength, athletic ability and footspeed.

Then I went back and changed those threes to fours, except I kept a three for footspeed (because I'm proud of my footspeed!). Still, I got a 48.

Weird.

SATennis 12-06-2006 11:20 AM

Yeah, I think the rating wizard is there if you do not have an NTRP and you don't have a pro to rate you accurately. It is supposed to give you a general idea of where you would be rated, but I guess it is not very accurate.

Have you guys looked at anything else on the website? What do you think of it?

BigJEFF 12-08-2006 05:30 AM

I have TenCap for at least 10 yrs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SATennis (Post 1095114)
Has anyone ever heard of the TENCAP rating system? I am sick of the NTRP system. I constantly have players arriving at my club looking for games, telling me they are a 4.5. So I set them up with a game with one of my 4.0 players, and it is a waste of both players' time because the guy is actually a bad 3.5. His pro inflated his rating, as I'm sure we've all seen before. But, then I hear of this TENCAP system and how it can eliminate most of those problems.


Apparently, TENCAP has a league in Kansas City that is very successful, and they are going to be expanding into the club system. It is a rating system calculated similar to a golf handicap, meaning it is completely based on play. So, supposedly you can't cheat the system. Scores are posted by club pros or team captains and ratings are calculated using an unique algorithm. So your rating changes all the time, not just within one season, or when your club pro says it changes.

If anyone knows anything about it, please post some info.

I have played Tencap for yrs it is a lot of fun the best part is making it to the finals. They play all the division finals in 1 day used to be 1 night but due to the number of divisions they make it all day now and at 2 different places. They have a huge dinner for the players and then everyone watches and cheers for thier own club players. One of the best enviroment's and most enjoyable Tennis events I have ever been a part of it is always followed by having the Top players and Local pros playing thier finals and seeing some awesome Tennis with lots of Beer. You also here of very few problems because I think the people who run it use commen sence and we all know that the USTA has never heard of that..... SA I am from KC also what club do you play out of and what is your rating.

SATennis 12-12-2006 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigJEFF (Post 1107036)
I have played Tencap for yrs it is a lot of fun the best part is making it to the finals. They play all the division finals in 1 day used to be 1 night but due to the number of divisions they make it all day now and at 2 different places. They have a huge dinner for the players and then everyone watches and cheers for thier own club players. One of the best enviroment's and most enjoyable Tennis events I have ever been a part of it is always followed by having the Top players and Local pros playing thier finals and seeing some awesome Tennis with lots of Beer. You also here of very few problems because I think the people who run it use commen sence and we all know that the USTA has never heard of that..... SA I am from KC also what club do you play out of and what is your rating.

Tencap sounds pretty good. Have you had any experience with any other leagues other than Tencap?
I am currently not a member of a club. I do a little coaching at the Carriage Club. My rating is probably around a 6.0 (maybe a 5.5 now days). What is your NTRP (or your Tencap)?

BigJEFF 12-12-2006 07:53 PM

BiG Jeff
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SATennis (Post 1113889)
Tencap sounds pretty good. Have you had any experience with any other leagues other than Tencap?
I am currently not a member of a club. I do a little coaching at the Carriage Club. My rating is probably around a 6.0 (maybe a 5.5 now days). What is your NTRP (or your Tencap)?

ask Kirkland about me he knows BIG JEFF LOL I am the Heavy weight Tennis champ of the World lol

Geezer Guy 12-13-2006 11:44 AM

All the KC guys know Big Jeff!

Geezer Guy 12-13-2006 11:45 AM

Eh - I didn't mean that quite the way it sounded.

Torres 10-30-2013 04:53 PM

Looks infinitely better than NTRP. In this day and age, there's no excuse not to have a computerized, dynamic rating system. Shame it hasn't really taken off. Needs to be taken up by a national association really.

http://my.tencaptennis.com/help/vide...ings_Explained

schmke 10-30-2013 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torres (Post 7858267)
Looks infinitely better than NTRP. In this day and age, there's no excuse not to have a computerized, dynamic rating system. Shame it hasn't really taken off. Needs to be taken up by a national association really.

http://my.tencaptennis.com/help/vide...ings_Explained

NTRP is a computerized dynamic rating system, so the USTA is using one. Sure, there are valid complaints about it, but don't ding it for not being computerized and dynamic.

sovertennis 10-31-2013 05:13 AM

Why don't you just look the player up on tennislink? And if they don't have a rating subtract 1 (4.5-1 = 3.5) and set your player up with that level? I've played with other players around the country at tennis camps and resorts, and that pretty much sums up the rating discrepancy.

The rating inflation CAK speaks of is rampant at the camp where I teach as well, so I agree with his "subtract one from whatever the person rates him/herself." When a player tells me his/her rating, I always ask "Are you in a USTA league?" if the answer is "no" then the person is likely aggrandizing their rating.


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