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-   -   Some stats for 1995 W SF (Becker-Agassi) (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=170715)

krosero 12-11-2007 11:43 AM

Some stats for 1995 W SF (Becker-Agassi)
 
Score: 2-6, 7-6 (1), 6-4, 7-6 (1)
(44 games)

Agassi was the top seed, Becker #3.

Becker had 22 aces (three on second serve) and 10 double-faults.
Agassi had 4 aces and 6 df's.

Becker's aces by set: 4, 4, 7, 7
Agassi's aces by set: 3, 1, 0, 0

Agassi did not serve an ace after the second game of the second set, no doubt because he needed to get his first serve in. Becker was taking Agassi’s second serve and charging, even early in the match. By 2-3 in the third he’d won 11 of 17 approaches that way (per NBC stats).


Becker made 49 clean winners: 11 FH, 6 BH, 14 FHV, 10 BHV, 8 smashes.

Agassi made 49 clean winners: 23 FH, 18 BH, 6 FHV, 0 BHV, and 2 smashes.

Becker’s winners by set: 8, 15, 5, 21
Agassi’s winners by set: 9, 12, 9, 19


Agassi’s two volley winners in the second set were unconventional: both were hit from behind the service line; one was a lob over Becker’s head, the other a swinging forehand volley. His next volley winner was also a swinging forehand. He didn’t have a conventional volley winner until the fourth set. Of course, the majority of the volleys he hit were conventional; but to put them away, at least before the fourth set, he needed to swing at the ball. And he never managed a backhand volley winner of any kind.

Agassi’s winners at the net were similar to his count in his Davis Cup match with Becker six years earlier, in which I counted 7 volley winners from him.

By contrast, I saw him hit over 20 volley winners in his 1988 loss to Wilander on red clay at Roland Garros.

In the '95 match, Becker got more winners from volleys/smashes than he did from ground strokes (32 to 17).

Becker made two winning BH returns of Agassi’s second serve, and two FH returns of Agassi’s first serve. None were passes, but he did make three passing shots (including two lobs).

Agassi made 14 service return winners (half of them off Becker’s first serve); thirteen were passes. He made 15 other passing shots, not including his volley lob winner: 8 BH’s (one lob) and 7 FH’s.


In the early and middle stages of the match, Becker was staying back on some second serves, and at least once on a first serve.

The fourth set was hard-fought, with both men holding serve throughout, fighting through long games and many break points (Agassi was 0-6, Becker 0-7). And there were 40 winners between them, a new high in the matches that I’ve looked at, exceeding the 39 that Becker and Agassi themselves hit in the third set of their Davis Cup match.

Nickognito 12-11-2007 12:43 PM

Your analysis are always very interesting. But why don't you scout serve winners too?

c.

krosero 12-11-2007 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickognito (Post 1932704)
Your analysis are always very interesting. But why don't you scout serve winners too?

c.

This match, I think, was my first attempt at counting them. I marked down only 5 for Becker and 3 for Agassi. I've seen much higher counts published for Becker in other matches, so I think in some way I must have undercounted them. Really I didn't put any thought into it, so I didn't put it into my post. I have some more posts still in the pike that don't include that stat. But I will be counting service winners for matches I watch in the future, or getting available figures.

Do you know of a good definition of a service winner that everyone agrees on?

Nickognito 12-11-2007 02:35 PM

I don't good any good definition of nothing that everyone agrees on ;-)

I think a service is a winner when the other player cannot return. Just touches the ball.

c.

protourOS 12-13-2007 09:04 AM

nice stats krosero

I remeber this being a classic semi-final match - a great performance by Becker agaisnt a very strong Agassi at the time.

The way I remember it (though it is a long time ago now) Agassi was running away with this match playing "in the zone" but apparently within himself - beating Boris's serve and volley tactics very effectively. It looked like Becker had no chance.
Then Boris had what i like to call an "episode" (much screaming at himself in german) before completely changing tactics and playing Andre from the baseline - at his own game - so to speak...and started beating him at it too!

This complete change seemed to really phase Andre while Boris's confidence grew and he went on to win from there. Both played really well at times but mentally Boris "the tank" got the edge in the 2nd set ...and didnt loose it.


Didn't work against Sampras in the final though...

krosero 12-13-2007 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protourOS (Post 1936525)
nice stats krosero

I remeber this being a classic semi-final match - a great performance by Becker agaisnt a very strong Agassi at the time.

The way I remember it (though it is a long time ago now) Agassi was running away with this match playing "in the zone" but apparently within himself - beating Boris's serve and volley tactics very effectively. It looked like Becker had no chance.
Then Boris had what i like to call an "episode" (much screaming at himself in german) before completely changing tactics and playing Andre from the baseline - at his own game - so to speak...and started beating him at it too!

This complete change seemed to really phase Andre while Boris's confidence grew and he went on to win from there. Both played really well at times but mentally Boris "the tank" got the edge in the 2nd set ...and didnt loose it.


Didn't work against Sampras in the final though...

Becker was yelling at himself as he often does, but I don't remember a particular episode that turned things around. As for playing Andre from the baseline, I can confirm that he stayed back sometimes on second serve and even once on first serve, sometime in the middle of the match, I think. But part of what happened is that Becker started being more successful, so some rallies grew longer. Down 4-1, love-30 in the second, he played an aggressive baseline rally and won it; two points later he got that famous baseline-to-baseline FH winner, where he lifts his arms as if in triumph.

But I didn't really see a change in tactics, and the stats don't confirm it. Only in the first set does he have more ground stroke winners than volleys/smashes: 4 vs. 3. In the second it was 6 vs. 9, in the third 2 vs. 3, and in the fourth 5 vs. 16. By then he was clearly at his most aggressive.

ACS 12-13-2007 01:10 PM

I'm not sure that I remember this match too well (as an Agassi fan, it's too painful to go back and watch), but I also do not remember a change in tactics by Becker...in retrospect, the famous baseline-to-baseline forehand winner really stands out as the turning point

what I do remember was that, coming in to the match, Becker had to go to 9-7 in the fifth to beat Pioline in the quarters - no shame in that, but Agassi was looking so strong that I felt Agassi would likely win in straight sets (remember, Agassi owned Becker at that point)

and it certainly looked like Agassi was on his way to an easy victory early on - as i recall, he played about as well as I ever saw him play up to 4-1 in the second set...then, Becker played a good game to break him, and Andre was never the same...his passing shots (which had been razor sharp) were sitting up for Becker to put away...by early in the third set (or maybe earlier), Agassi's eyes had that "deer in the headlights" look, while Becker was walking like he owned wimbledon

(that's how I remember it...but my bias is obviously slanted towards Agassi)

Nickognito 12-13-2007 02:01 PM

one of the most incredible match i've ever seen. Agassi was dominating, Becker was humiliated, but Boris pride was too big. It wasn't a match of tennis, it was some kind of magic. Agassi was hopeless, because that day he needed more than his tennis,

And it was a wonderful day. Sampras was already in the final, but Ivanisevic played one of the best match ever on grass, maybe the best ever (with the exception of a dozen crucial points bad played, obviously).

The tennis winners were Ivanisevic and Agassi, clearly.

But the brain, and the pride, were more important that day.

Great great day of tennis.

c.

Moose Malloy 12-13-2007 02:44 PM

Quote:

one of the most incredible match i've ever seen. Agassi was dominating, Becker was humiliated, but Boris pride was too big. It wasn't a match of tennis, it was some kind of magic. Agassi was hopeless, because that day he needed more than his tennis,

And it was a wonderful day. Sampras was already in the final, but Ivanisevic played one of the best match ever on grass, maybe the best ever (with the exception of a dozen crucial points bad played, obviously).

The tennis winners were Ivanisevic and Agassi, clearly.

But the brain, and the pride, were more important that day.

Great great day of tennis.
Great post.

Many talk about Agassi going into a tailspin after losing the '95 US final to Sampras, but they should mention this one as well, blowing a 6-2,4-1(2 breaks!) lead in a Wimbledon SF? How demoralizing to play well enough to win 3 majors in one year & yet only walk away with one. Agassi is the greater player, but Becker was mentally tougher.

I remember being in awe of Agassi that event, I had never seen anyone return serve like that on grass before (even when he won it in '92) you almost expected him to hit a winner on every return(I think the NY Times had a writer describe how well Agassi was playing prior to SF day, "maybe if they have Agassi return Sampras, Becker, & Goran's serves at the same time, they may have a chance" Ok, an exaggeration, but Agassi was making believers of
out of many who had given up on guys winning W without a big serve.

shakes1975 12-13-2007 04:51 PM

HI Krosero,

thanks for bringing up this match. i am a great becker fan and i love the way he turned it around in this match.

also, i doubt how many people on this board have seen their 1989 davis cup match. it was a match of the highest quality.

sometimes i wonder what would've happened to the agassi-becker rivalry if agassi had not got the idea to read becker's serve based on becker's tongue (as agassi had told in his commentary during the USO QF between fed and roddick). i think it would have been more even. becker had a great serve, though not at sampras' level.

also, i still believe that becker would've given sampras a better fight than agassi in the 1995 USO F if he had got through, simply bcos he would've held serve much more consistently. we would've had at least 2-3 tie-breaks.

krosero 12-13-2007 05:00 PM

There were certainly mental toughness intangibles here, but in the tangible, concrete sense, I think the better grasscourt game won. I don't simply mean Becker's 22 aces, against Agassi's 4. It's also Agassi's volleys, which produced few winners. I look over my notes and I see that Becker got the only break of the third set by throwing up lobs that drew an error -- an overhead error as I recall.

Agassi essentially was in the zone and was playing great defense, but his offense was nothing remarkable; at least not against Becker's defense. Becker, on the other hand, had all those serves and volley winners, and on top of that he played strong defense. He had 17 ground stroke winners, and would have had more passing shots if Agassi had presented more of a target.

His ground strokes, in a way, gave him the edge in the match. Though he was not baselining with Agassi, he got his first break with those two strong baseline rallies that we mentioned. And the break in the third, he got by throwing up lobs. It took only one error (on grass that's often all it took), but Agassi made it -- at the net. That's where Andre showed no particular strength, however amazing his defense was.

McEnroe said that Becker played a smart match, mixing it up well, and by that he didn't mean that Boris was slowing down the pace; that was not Becker's style. But he was adventurous with the way he played points, because he had both offense and defense: big flat serves, topspin, slice approaches. He came in a lot, but not always on a predictable ball, because he could rally too. So he kept Agassi off balance and applied constant pressure.

And he made all his first serves in the tiebreaks -- big serves generally giving a player an advantage in tiebreaks, especially on fast surfaces.

I haven't seen their 95 USO semi since then, but if Agassi took both tiebreaks there, that means he played the big points better there. That's why I don't think the W win comes down to Becker's mental toughness; Agassi could be mentally superior himself, in other matches. I just don't think he had enough to defeat Becker's best grasscourt game; and I think he would have lost to Sampras anyway, though in a close match.

krosero 12-13-2007 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACS (Post 1936983)
I'm not sure that I remember this match too well (as an Agassi fan, it's too painful to go back and watch), but I also do not remember a change in tactics by Becker...in retrospect, the famous baseline-to-baseline forehand winner really stands out as the turning point

what I do remember was that, coming in to the match, Becker had to go to 9-7 in the fifth to beat Pioline in the quarters - no shame in that, but Agassi was looking so strong that I felt Agassi would likely win in straight sets (remember, Agassi owned Becker at that point)

and it certainly looked like Agassi was on his way to an easy victory early on - as i recall, he played about as well as I ever saw him play up to 4-1 in the second set...then, Becker played a good game to break him, and Andre was never the same...his passing shots (which had been razor sharp) were sitting up for Becker to put away...by early in the third set (or maybe earlier), Agassi's eyes had that "deer in the headlights" look, while Becker was walking like he owned wimbledon

(that's how I remember it...but my bias is obviously slanted towards Agassi)

I'm definitely a Becker fan, and the whole rivalry was painful for me :)

Seriously, it's ironic being a Becker fan, that I didn't bother to watch this match because I expected Agassi to win; and I was not that into tennis anymore. Becker's win revived my interest for bit; and then Agassi's rivalry with Sampras got me just as interested as everyone ... until Andre went away.

But it's ironic that I saw all of Andre's victories over Boris in Slams -- including the 95 USO, which I sat down hopefully to watch -- but I have not seen the one that Becker took, until now.

It's hard to pinpoint exactly how the match got turned around. Sometimes a single moment can have great impact, and that first break seems to have been a psychological turning point; until then I think that mentally, Agassi's 8 straight victories were still on the minds of both men; after that it just became a dogfight.

Agassi was in the zone through 4-1 in the second, no question. He'd had a non-taxing QF and was having a great year. Becker was still stiff from the Pioline quarterfinal (something McEnroe noted too). I think it took him a while to get on fire; that baseline rally that got him the break point at 1-4 amazed me, the way he was moving then, with so much vigor despite getting spanked.

But I'm a fan, so that's my bias.:)

krosero 12-13-2007 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakes1975 (Post 1937468)
HI Krosero,

thanks for bringing up this match. i am a great becker fan and i love the way he turned it around in this match.

also, i doubt how many people on this board have seen their 1989 davis cup match. it was a match of the highest quality.

sometimes i wonder what would've happened to the agassi-becker rivalry if agassi had not got the idea to read becker's serve based on becker's tongue (as agassi had told in his commentary during the USO QF between fed and roddick). i think it would have been more even. becker had a great serve, though not at sampras' level.

also, i still believe that becker would've given sampras a better fight than agassi in the 1995 USO F if he had got through, simply bcos he would've held serve much more consistently. we would've had at least 2-3 tie-breaks.

I read that Agassi's commentary during the match was great; it's one I have to see.

I wonder how much of a factor the tongue thing could have been. How consistently can you see something like that from so far away? But then again Agassi had incomparable eyes.

The 1995 USO final, you may be right, though I think that you and I might agree that Sampras would still have won. In 1990, if Boris had beaten Andre in their semi, I think he would have lost to Pete. That may sound defeatist, but who could have beaten Sampras that day?

slice bh compliment 12-13-2007 06:08 PM

Cool thread. I loved that match.

iirc, at 6-2, 4-1 down [or right before that], Boris shook his head and looked like he was going to pack it in. Then he started really boogeying at the baseline and slicing his Bh short x-ct to Dre's bh. Not the BH to Bh matchup ANdre enjoyed. Boris would earn a short ball and often come in. That paid off a lot more than predictably coming in.

Is it my imagination, or did Andre lose some intensity at the end of the 2nd set there?

Well, anyway, what a great match. Inspiring: the tenacity despite the rough matchup and the fact that Andre could have gone on to just roll him.... a subtle tactic change and the triumph of a game more suited to a grass court.

Bravo Boris.

Buchhalter 12-14-2007 07:53 AM

During the second set, something happened during a rally, and the crowd sort of chuckled, as did AA. Pretty much everyone except Boris. That event seemed to renew Boris's fighting spirit. He settled down, changed his tactics and put one on AA.

At the US Open they played in the Semi's. The incident was mentioned then. AA got the better of Boris in that match, but it was close.

slice bh compliment 12-14-2007 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buchhalter (Post 1938486)
During the second set, something happened during a rally, and the crowd sort of chuckled, as did AA. Pretty much everyone except Boris. That event seemed to renew Boris's fighting spirit. He settled down, changed his tactics and put one on AA.

At the US Open they played in the Semi's. The incident was mentioned then. AA got the better of Boris in that match, but it was close.

That was it! I don't remember if it was a score or a result from no. 1 court...or what, but I do remember that, too.

urban 12-14-2007 08:34 AM

Agassi looked awful in his white clothes, like a cleaning wife.And i think Boris was heckled by Brooke Shileds, especially later at USO. Agassi started on a extermely high note, and cooled down a bit, after squandering a 2 breaks lead in the second. If i remember it right, Boris had much success with low shots down the middle, giving Agassi no angles. But Becker was exhausted after this tough win (coupled with his 5 setter over Pioline), and no match for Sampras in the final. But Nickognito is right, the best player of the day was probably Goran. He had many chances to win his semi in 3 or 4 sets, but played loose points at the big moments. Sampras simply stayed in the match, and took his chances.

krosero 12-14-2007 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buchhalter (Post 1938486)
During the second set, something happened during a rally, and the crowd sort of chuckled, as did AA. Pretty much everyone except Boris. That event seemed to renew Boris's fighting spirit. He settled down, changed his tactics and put one on AA.

At the US Open they played in the Semi's. The incident was mentioned then. AA got the better of Boris in that match, but it was close.

Maybe you're thinking of the episode with the Cyclops machine. Becker was complaining about it, and the umpire agreed to turn it off, to go with the linespersons. Agassi joked that even he couldn't see "this guy's serve, how are they supposed to see it," or something like that that. It got a laugh and Becker did a mock laugh, shoulders bouncing and everything. That happened in the first game of the second set. Becker still was broken twice more at 1-all and 3-1 before he got back into it.

krosero 01-01-2008 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakes1975 (Post 1937468)
sometimes i wonder what would've happened to the agassi-becker rivalry if agassi had not got the idea to read becker's serve based on becker's tongue (as agassi had told in his commentary during the USO QF between fed and roddick).

I just heard Agassi's commentary myself and now I think it's legit: Agassi totally believed it was a factor, so it was more than an occasional thing that he did.

He said something I didn't know: that at one point Becker stopped doing this with his tongue; and Andre joked about how panic set in for him then. There's really only one match that he could be referring to, this 1995 loss at Wimbledon, because it was the only time that Becker beat him after 1989 (and so many of us have commented on the panicked look in Agassi's eyes). Their 1995 USO semi was to be their last match until one more Agassi win in 1999, so maybe at the USO Boris was not doing it. Who knows. One thing I do know is how close this Wimbledon match was, regardless.

krosero 04-03-2009 07:55 PM

NBC's stats
 
I went through this match again and proofed my original counts; I made a few corrections to the original post. I also got a few extra counts and checked against NBC's stats.

Per NBC, as of 3-5 in the third set:

Agassi's unforced errors:

Set 1 - 1
Set 2 - 8
Set 3 - 7


Agassi's winners:

Set 1 - 14 (I have 12)
Set 2 - 14 (I have 13)
Set 3 - 8 (I have 7)

I counted only clean winners and aces, so I'm falling a little short of NBC's numbers. But in this second viewing I judged some shots as winners that were not clean winners -- and if I plug in those judgment calls, my numbers line up with NBCs. I gave Agassi judgment calls on two FHs in the first set, another in the second, and one more at the start of the third.

For the remainder of the match after NBCs display of Agassi's winners, I gave him judgment calls on two BHs, a FH and a service winner.

So in all, including judgment calls, I gave Agassi 60 winners for the match.

NBC never presented Becker's winners, but on top of his 71 clean winners and aces I gave him 4 service winners, and no other judgment calls. So my total for Becker was 75 winners.


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